(11-06-2015 05:06 PM)sundodger Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 11:56 AM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 11:10 AM)sundodger Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 03:21 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Idaho and Montana were in the PCC. When the conference was dissolved, we were denied membership in the PAC.

Montana left the PCC nearly a decade before it was dissolved. When the AAWU formed Idaho, along with Wahington State, Oregon, and Oregon State were all left out. Idaho does seem to have been excluded as WSU and the Oregon schools were re-admitted to what would become the Pac over the next few years, of course this was only after all three were contacted about being charter members of the WAC. As for the exclusion of Idaho in that time, I think it is telling that Idaho was not even added to the obviously second tier WAC and instead formed the much more localized Big Sky. I suppose you could say that Idaho was excluded, but the actions then seem to suggest that Idaho was way out of their league even then. It does seem to be a shame that they along with Montana were not WAC members to begin with.

I don't think it was that big of a deal at the time - local rivalries were an attractive prospect, and Idaho wasn't really getting downgraded. We retained upper (university) division status the first 14 years we were in the Big Sky. During this period, the SBOE even rejected a Big West invite (big mistake in hindsight).

A few years later we were forced into the newly created 1AA.

I am not so sure about that. Your scheduling suffered after the exclusion, but even that was gradual, or rather your playing a Big Sky conference schedule appears to have been gradual, and didn't really happen until the late 60s.

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Idaho.htm

But your days as a Pac school appeared to be numbered with or without the breakup. Consider that you did not play a single California PCC school as a conference member after the meeting with Stanford in 1949. Most years you only played 3-4 PCC games while the rest of the conference played 6-7, hardly an equal member in that sense. Given the schedule you were already playing I contend that it is a shame both you and Montana did not land in the then WAC, it seems that you could have had a lot more stability if you had been with those schools from the off.

It makes me sad. There was more momentum to build a stadium acceptable by today's FBS standards, back when we were in the Big Sky. I have no doubt that we'd have a 25-30k seat stadium if we were in the WAC to begin with. We'd also have the 12k seat b-ball facility that was proposed in the 70's.

Penn state was rejected by the Big East shortly before they received their Big Ten invite

(11-06-2015 05:02 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 03:09 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 12:45 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Pitt was the leading challenger to Michigan State when the Western Conference/Big Ten went back to 10.

Yeah, it might be behind a paywall now, but there's an old article that talked about who was considered in that Chicago replacement. Pitt, Nebraska, Notre Dame, and Marquette were the ones it listed beyond Michigan State. This is the first time I'm seeing Iowa State in that move.

Nebraska was also considered as a founding member of the Big West/Big Ten.

People want to paint the Notre Dame-Big Ten saga as something of a dance...Nebraska had them beat. Notre Dame's rejections are just uglier, although the Big Ten definitely had other "midwest" biases going for them other than the anti-Catholic thing. Schools like Nebraska and Missouri weren't well liked out of that whole "industrial vs. agriculture" thing.

"Industrial vs agriculture?" Can you elaborate?

I have a hard time believing that Purdue, Illinois, or Ohio State would reject a school because they're from an agricultural state. Those are 3 of the 4 biggest ag schools in the country.

And Iowa City and Bloomington aren't exactly Manhattan. I can't imagine them being biased against schools from rural states.

I heard it as a culture thing. States and schools friendly to industry and union, and schools with sizable populations from urban environments. Schools with engineering and the sciences to those not so diverse?

It always seemed stupid to hear, since so many Big Ten schools ripped off UNL's operating style, being a fellow land grant, but there was more than just a geographical schism between Big Ten and Big 8.

(11-06-2015 05:32 PM)AntiG Wrote:  Penn state was rejected by the Big East shortly before they received their Big Ten invite

It was more than a few years between the rejection and the Big Ten invite. Keep in mind that the Big Ten thing was ongoing behind closed doors with PSU's president and certain B10 ones, while Joepa was doing his thing. When someone from PSU publicly leaked the matter, the conference put the vote on ice for a year.

The Big East "came around" and invited PSU when it finally sponsored football. Penn State then rejected them. Army and Navy also turned down invites. From how it's been said, all three were usually given right of first refusal when the conference considered expansion.

Can't imagine PSU changing its mind after getting the Big Ten nod. I know a lot of people wish they would have.

(11-05-2015 12:28 PM)esayem Wrote:  SEC
Florida State (Florida was their sponsor multiple times from the 1960's to the 1970's)
Miami (Florida was their sponsor in the 1960's)
Houston (Ole Miss was their sponsor)
Southern Miss (1970's)
Memphis (Tennessee was their sponsor in the 1970's)

Interesting...as I remember it from a newspaper article, Florida State was the team they were hot to trot for and UH, which was emerging in football and basketball, was their tag along. Per a SA Express-News article from 2005, UH was also tied to a move to the SEC with A&M as a travel partner after a meeting between power brokers from LSU and A&M in 1993.

I also remember that Miami turned down an SEC invite, which wasn't foolish but also would have guaranteed their relevance. They are a better academic fit for the ACC though.

(11-05-2015 12:28 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think this is a cool historical topic. Here's what I have from the top of my head:

ACC
Virginia Tech and West Virginia (1950's)
Virginia Tech (1970's)

*South Carolina had the votes, but they didn't apply for re-admittance in the late 70's before GT.

I read Southern Miss applied in the 60's or something. Can't recall.

Big 8/12
I can't find anything about this conference as far as expansion. Well, besides the formation of the Big XII.

Big 10
Notre Dame, Marquette, and Iowa State were all considered around the time MSU was approved. Not sure if any actually applied.

Pac 8/10/12
I know names like Texas, Colorado, BYU, and San Diego State were thrown around, but I'm not sure it came to an actual vote.

SEC
Florida State (Florida was their sponsor multiple times from the 1960's to the 1970's)
Miami (Florida was their sponsor in the 1960's)
Houston (Ole Miss was their sponsor)
Southern Miss (1970's)
Memphis (Tennessee was their sponsor in the 1970's)

SWC
Houston (sometime before they were admitted in the 1970's)
Tulane (early 1990's)
Louisville and Memphis were proposed by the commissioner after the Tulane vote, Tulsa also wanted in at the time. They never came to votes.

Anybody else?

Arkansas was turned down by the Old Big 8 back in the late 70's.

(11-05-2015 06:41 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The MAC put WKU up to a vote MAC in the mid-2000s, but were denied over academic concerns.

Heard the story a different way.

Prior commissioner pushed for WKU but a closer look at league finances revealed the commissioner had over-spent significantly mostly in locking up bowl deals and the membership was going to see a cut in distribution so splitting even more ways had no support.

The initial SEC expansion plan was 16 but Texas, Texas A&M, and Florida State said no thanks and the presidents rejected the proposal to add Miami who had a bad reputation at the time.

Arkansas tried to convince Texas, Texas A&M, OU, OkSt, Mizzou, LSU, and Nebraska to form a new league a couple years before the SEC expanded. Arkansas AD had this crazy idea they could make more money by leaving the CFP

East Carolina was turned down by the Big East.

East Carolina was turned down by the Big East, again.

East Carolina was turned down by the Big East, again, for football only and to not share in conference revenue.

ECU is still turned down by the Big East even after the Big East football conference rejects Villanova's soccer stadium proposal. Pittsburgh and Syracuse bolt for the ACC. WVU bolts for the Big XII and pays a lot of money.

(11-06-2015 11:56 AM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 11:10 AM)sundodger Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 03:21 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  Idaho and Montana were in the PCC. When the conference was dissolved, we were denied membership in the PAC.

Montana left the PCC nearly a decade before it was dissolved. When the AAWU formed Idaho, along with Wahington State, Oregon, and Oregon State were all left out. Idaho does seem to have been excluded as WSU and the Oregon schools were re-admitted to what would become the Pac over the next few years, of course this was only after all three were contacted about being charter members of the WAC. As for the exclusion of Idaho in that time, I think it is telling that Idaho was not even added to the obviously second tier WAC and instead formed the much more localized Big Sky. I suppose you could say that Idaho was excluded, but the actions then seem to suggest that Idaho was way out of their league even then. It does seem to be a shame that they along with Montana were not WAC members to begin with.

I don't think it was that big of a deal at the time - local rivalries were an attractive prospect, and Idaho wasn't really getting downgraded. We retained upper (university) division status the first 14 years we were in the Big Sky. During this period, the SBOE even rejected a Big West invite (big mistake in hindsight).

A few years later we were forced into the newly created 1AA.

You did eventually join the Big West in 1996, but it was far different than the one your State Board denied you membership in back in the 70s

Seattle University was reported to have applied for Big West membership in 2008 and was denied.

(11-06-2015 06:11 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 05:32 PM)AntiG Wrote:  Penn state was rejected by the Big East shortly before they received their Big Ten invite

It was more than a few years between the rejection and the Big Ten invite. Keep in mind that the Big Ten thing was ongoing behind closed doors with PSU's president and certain B10 ones, while Joepa was doing his thing. When someone from PSU publicly leaked the matter, the conference put the vote on ice for a year.

The Big East "came around" and invited PSU when it finally sponsored football. Penn State then rejected them. Army and Navy also turned down invites. From how it's been said, all three were usually given right of first refusal when the conference considered expansion.

Can't imagine PSU changing its mind after getting the Big Ten nod. I know a lot of people wish they would have.

PSU was never officially invited the the BE. Tranghese wanted to invite them but when he discovered he wouldnt have the votes the matter was dropped.What a shame. Gtown,Nova and SJU were the 3 that didnt support offering the invite.
even after the first acc raid an invitation was not sent to PSU. although they BE did send out feelers in desperation.
IMO even if BE did have the votes PSU would have still left for the B10 at some point

in the early 80's PSU did try to start a new eastern conference but Syracuse and BC did not want to leave the BB centric BE. Others thought PSU demanded too much.this conference may have kept them around and we would have a northeastern based FB conference today.
oh well

I think I read North Texas was trying to get into the SWC in the 70's as well.

Didn't Davidson decline to become a charter member of the ACC?

(11-06-2015 12:35 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 11:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  UMFL hired Washington State's AD, Sam Jankovich, to lock up an ACC invitation in the 80's. They were so blatant about their mission/campaign that Sam followed the ACC presidents out to their meetings in Arizona, lobbying all the while. The ACC balked.

The ACC's AD shared this about PSU and the ACC being a potential plan B. I don't know how in-depth this goes, or if this is the same thing that emerged about PSU and the ACC. I think there may have been something to PSU possibly becoming a member back in the 70's, where Georgia Tech ultimately came aboard? All I know about the PSU-ACC thing is that UMD didn't want them whenever that happened.

So, when PSU went to the Big Ten, that put the FSU-ACC thing into motion, and, again, UMFL turned away.

Out west, where it concerns the PAC expansion that saw both Arizona schools getting tapped, my understanding was Arizona pulled a "both or none" bit with the conference about State coming with them, and it wound up costing Utah a spot.

I've come to learn that both Utah and BYU got hosed very often from the 70's onward. UU's lucky nobody else left the Big XII, because I doubt their spot would have been a given had even one other B12 North school with AAU distinction clearly wanted to move. Not a lot unlike Rutgers and the Big Ten. They get to where they want to be, thanks to others waffling.

I would love to know which school applied to the Big Ten during that UMD-Rutgers thing that was turned away based on academics. UConn and FSU were the favorites, but nothing's ever been confirmed.

I find it hard to believe that UMD alone (although I admit the ACC Commissioner at the time was a UMD man) had the influence to deny Penn State entrance to the ACC. If it were true, a vindictive Joe Paterno would've ended the annual game against UMD.

Regarding Miami (Fl), the ACC didn't want them. The program would have to clean up its act before the ACC gave the school reconsideration.

MD didn't want Penn State and none of the other schools in the ACC in the 70's or 80's were willing to go against what another school thought was an existential threat. MD also didn't want Florida in the 1960's. UNC didn't really want to compete with Penn State football and NO ONE wanted to go to Happy Valley for a basketball game.

(11-07-2015 06:04 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Seattle University was reported to have applied for Big West membership in 2008 and was denied.

Seattle would move to the WCC in a second if Gonzaga didn't blacklist them.

(11-08-2015 07:59 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Didn't Davidson decline to become a charter member of the ACC?

Doubtful as Davidson was one of the reasons the ACC schools split from the SoCon to begin with.

(11-08-2015 08:34 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(11-07-2015 06:04 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Seattle University was reported to have applied for Big West membership in 2008 and was denied.

Seattle would move to the WCC in a second if Gonzaga didn't blacklist them.

Both schools are on the different sides of the state.

Not positive but I believe Rutgers was denied Ivy League membership in the 50s because by then it was a public school.

(11-08-2015 08:25 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  MD didn't want Penn State and none of the other schools in the ACC in the 70's or 80's were willing to go against what another school thought was an existential threat. MD also didn't want Florida in the 1960's. UNC didn't really want to compete with Penn State football and NO ONE wanted to go to Happy Valley for a basketball game.

Yeah, I got the impression that Corrigan was hinting at that UNC-Duke duo who poo-poo'd expansion all throughout that time. UMD's position was enough to sink any candidate when added to the automatic double-no from NC.

I have a hard time seeing further ACC-to-B1G defections because of that UMD thing, but if other schools liked and wanted Penn State, and wanted to be around them enough, I guess they could make it work with Maryland (again).

Quote:IMO even if BE did have the votes PSU would have still left for the B10 at some point

I think Pitt would have done what PSU did. Get there first, get control of who comes in thereafter. If the vote went 6-4, I suspect Pitt would have went to the conference, gotten in. Penn State would be ACC #9 (edit: derp). Who knows if it would have went to eleven or twelve so quickly, as I think PSU would have wanted a Florida school. May even have been enough to pull for Miami? The Big East would have been reeling for sure had it gone that way.

As for other denials, more recently: Hopkins to ACC lacrosse, though it wasn't an invitation. I think Hopkins legitimately wants to be in the ACC and not the Big Ten. Supposedly, Notre Dame asked the Big Ten for ice hockey membership as the conference was close to formalizing formation, and was given the "all or nothing" spiel. Boise State's olympic sports were being made to sweat during that AAC-MWC thing, as the Big West and Big Sky didn't want them.

I'd love to know who's talked to the Ivy League over the years.