(11-06-2015 12:13 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  I could care less if Memphis fails or not. They may have done it fifteen Academic All-Americas. They may have done it with 24 transfers and jucos (Note: I know we can get a good juco now and then that helps us as well. We can't do it extensively as some can).

Rick, i want to challenge you on the JUCO issue. you raised it repeatedly in your posts a year ago to put the La Tech blowout loss "into proper context".

I believe a few things about JUCO and happy to have you push back.

1. there is a strong inverse correlation between the number of JUCOs in a program and the program's ranking in Sagarin, Massey or wherever. Michigan State has ONE on its roster. UTSA has 10. New Mexico State doesn't list on its roster, but going back to signing day notes they have brought in 5 across the past two years. Many FCS schools are loaded with them.

2. We can't have it both ways. Either continuity is good or changing out the roster every year with JUCO's is good.

3. I believe when a JUCO laden team achieves at the level of La Tech, it is about the COACHING, not about the JUCO's.

4. by my count, Memphis has 9 on its roster

5. La Tech and Memphis are the exception, not the rule, in the sense that they have a lot of JUCO's and are good.


you have a strong disinclination to acknowledge that Skip Holtz and Justin Fuente are far better football coaches than David Bailiff, so when others are discussing their accomplishments you say "hey, they have a lot of JUCOs" as if they are an elixir that magically ensures W's. I assert the facts say otherwise

(11-06-2015 12:42 AM)WIowl Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 12:19 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 11:20 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 10:27 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 09:46 PM)SaintsOwl Wrote:  I find it interesting that folks that defend Bailiff don't want to deal with the facts. They never address the fact that his wins have come against awful teams and we should be 3-5 (or 2-6) if we're honest with ourselves. Debate with facts not emotions. He needs to go if not this program will continue to sink. Today I was on the road and guess who I heard on the radio 790 then 610 am - Tom Herman. You know why, because they are exciting, they are relevant, they are 8-0. In the meantime, David Bailiff is looking for ways to spin things. "we have a young team" So what, the other night Toledo played, they lost but they are 7-1. Toledo had no returning starters on their offensive line. Five new guys, zero sacks allowed. Reason - no excuses just coaching.

I think I've said repeatedly that we beat teams that we're better than, and we lose to teams better than us. What more do you expect anyone to acknowledge/address? That line (of who we beat) moves from year to year, depending on our roster, age of players (experience) and how quickly they've developed.

We're 4-4 because we deserve to be 4-4. For a team this young, that's not bad at all. We've played teams that would be overjoyed with a 'rebuild' year like we've had.

Bailiff won 3 games against teams with winning records in 2008 and 2013. Accomplished only two other times by Rice from 1963 to date.

Doesn't make him Bear Bryant or Gary Patterson. But the facts cut both ways.

Thing is, Bailiff is on video before this season saying what? NOT that this was to be a rebuilding year. He was saying, for the very first time in his 9 seasons here, mind you, that now he is not satisfied with just what we've already accomplished but (and I believe this is very close to the quotes) "We want to be in the Top 25 at the end of the season." and "We want to beat Texas."

We had the hardest conference games at home, we didn't leave the state of Texas but once this season (granted it is a very large state), we have a 5th year returning as QB to lead us, we have stability and continuity in coaching and system, we have senior leadership, the players and fans will see the EZF under construction, we have 3 straight bowls so all that extra practice and preparation makes us better than we ever were, we have built great depth that Rice has rarely had before, we have great running backs, etc...etc... That is what we heard from Bailiff before this season.

Now, about 2/3 of the way through: We have a lot of young players, we have a tough schedule, things go in cycles, we have too many injuries (this comment irks me more than most: EVERY team has injuries and defections/graduations/losses EVERY year--good coaches plan for it to happen, prepare, and work around it in spite of it (Ohio State had a 3rd string QB--oh, that was Herman)) and then the old standbys from every year: that one's on me, we have to play better defense, we have to tackle better, we have to get better...how stupid does this guy think we are? Apparently he thinks Rice people are idiots who know nothing about football because we're a geeky little nerd school. And maybe he's right about that, because so many appear to believe the patter he dishes out and lap it up coming back for more.

Yes, we will most likely beat UTEP, UTSA, Charlotte and get our 7 wins for another (b)owl game. After the FAU and Army games, difficult as those were (and in my opinion those should have been gimmes won by large margins) how could we not beat teams rated even worse than they were? So. Miss is turning it around, and unless they just have an off day which they certainly could, I don't see us winning that one now. Shame because it is Homecoming, when a few more alumns than normal will get likely their only impression of football at Rice for the year. If we win, you can bet there will be trumpets from the top of the stadium from Bailiff about how glorious it is that we beat a rebuilding So Miss at home on Homecoming. Extension talk will begin "He's turning it around." No, he's playing the extra crappy part of the schedule. And it is better than losing the games.

As to your comparison Rick, we need much higher benchmarking if we are to raise the program up. I can qualify the heck out of your 3 winning program wins comments, you know as well as I. Rice doesn't have much exceptional football history and what we do have is mostly from way, way back.

Let's compare to what Memphis has accomplished the last two years. Let's start at that Memphis game, since many like to ignore the whole record here, and see what happened to each program: One is Top 15 and rising, in discussion by some national columnists for the CFP (not just the access bowl, but the actual 4 team playoff). Probably won't ever happen, but remarkable considering the pit that program was mired in and the laughingstock they were. Some would be happy to see them fall as it hurts their narrative that the seemingly impossible can't be accomplished quickly over multiple seasons by a new hungry coach. Where are we since that game? Not even close, and debatably a bit farther than before.

It's a car that runs, but it's a Yugo, not a Porsche. Let's at least be honest is what some posters are asking.

It's not a Porsche, but it's not a Yugo either.

Memphis since "the game" went 3-9 in 2013 while we were winning a championship. 2014 they lost to good teams, but beat the likes of Austin Peay, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, and Temple (signature win!!!) to qualify for a "minor bowl". Only this year have they separated themselves from Rice. Rice doesn't get numerous 300lb juco options every season. But we'll see in a couple of years, when our 31 freshman are seasoned vets.

We have to wait another 3 years just to see if that gamble pays off with Bailiff? So, year 13 might finally be THE year? No, thank you.

Tee hee
I like how you turned his 2 years ("a couple") into 3 years, and then 4 years ("year 13" -> 13-9=4) in just two lines. :)

By year 13 we'll be rebuilding again, I do expect some drop-off that year after our New Years bowl win.

(11-06-2015 05:37 AM)MemOwl Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 12:13 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  I could care less if Memphis fails or not. They may have done it fifteen Academic All-Americas. They may have done it with 24 transfers and jucos (Note: I know we can get a good juco now and then that helps us as well. We can't do it extensively as some can).

Rick, i want to challenge you on the JUCO issue. you raised it repeatedly in your posts a year ago to put the La Tech blowout loss "into proper context".

I believe a few things about JUCO and happy to have you push back.

1. there is a strong inverse correlation between the number of JUCOs in a program and the program's ranking in Sagarin, Massey or wherever. Michigan State has ONE on its roster. UTSA has 10. New Mexico State doesn't list on its roster, but going back to signing day notes they have brought in 5 across the past two years. Many FCS schools are loaded with them.

2. We can't have it both ways. Either continuity is good or changing out the roster every year with JUCO's is good.

3. I believe when a JUCO laden team achieves at the level of La Tech, it is about the COACHING, not about the JUCO's.

4. by my count, Memphis has 9 on its roster

5. La Tech and Memphis are the exception, not the rule, in the sense that they have a lot of JUCO's and are good.


you have a strong disinclination to acknowledge that Skip Holtz and Justin Fuente are far better football coaches than David Bailiff, so when others are discussing their accomplishments you say "hey, they have a lot of JUCOs" as if they are an elixir that magically ensures W's. I assert the facts say otherwise

1. I've never commented on Holtz's or Fuente's coaching abilities. Show me one poste where I've made any such comparison.

2. With LaTech, it wasn't just JUCO's they had several transfers from P5 schools who joined in 2014.

You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

Nope, not at all. Not any more than you would say that about LaTech when we blew them out in 2013.

It was one game with a lot of factors that lined up for Tech.

(11-06-2015 07:44 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  Tee hee
I like how you turned his 2 years ("a couple") into 3 years, and then 4 years ("year 13" -> 13-9=4) in just two lines. :)

By year 13 we'll be rebuilding again, I do expect some drop-off that year after our New Years bowl win.

Fantastic! Year 11 vs. 13 vs. more rebuilding, great! Enjoy the stands because they will be even more empty, you may have section 103-5 all to yourself.

And a New Years bowl win by Bailiff? Really??? Is this a power New Years Bowl or will this be a New Years bowl created by CUSA/SunBelt for two 6-6 teams?

(11-06-2015 09:22 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

Nope, not at all. Not any more than you would say that about LaTech when we blew them out in 2013.

It was one game with a lot of factors that lined up for Tech.

Except now it is two games in a row that they've blown us out.

(11-06-2015 09:22 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

Nope, not at all. Not any more than you would say that about LaTech when we blew them out in 2013.

It was one game with a lot of factors that lined up for Tech.

Do you believe that Holtz and Fuente (and I'll throw in Brohm at WKU) are better football coaches than Bailiff?

On one of the hundred other DB threads that have been here, I posted about how other coaches sing his praises above/beyond others. Most of feedback was, 'well that is just coachspeak..everyone does that' While I agree the coaching fraternity is pretty back slapping and only complementary of each other, I disagree that the volume for DB is the same as others. It is much higher. He gets more praise. This week from Kugler at UTEP (notice last sentence)

On Rice being a model for what Kugler is trying to do at UTEP:

“Yes because I think they’re well-coached. I think they’re disciplined. I think Coach (David) Bailiff does an unbelievable job. They’re always in the hunt. They compete. They play smart football. I just admire their program and their kids. They’re classy. They don’t do the crazy stuff that has nothing to do with football. They just play football and they try to win football games, and that’s what I want this football program to be and that’s what we aspire to be.

'thats what we aspire to be...' So here you have another FBS coach specifically calling out DB/Rice is what he wants for his program to grow into. Hmmm. Most here reading this probably are some combo of laughing/shaking their heads at those words.

External observation... Rice is the problem, not DB. It is a tough place to recruit w/ academics, not a history of winning in last 50+ years, culture, funding, $ to pay assistants, small school, facilities below peers, etc, etc.

External Conclusion: "So why should anyone be surprised when they lose against teams who have better tools to compete? DB is winning against realistic competition in those circumstances and doing things the right way. Amazing job. Just think if Rice made same investments and commitments as its private Texas and private Academic peers with DB at the helm? Give him the tools Rice. You have a good one there."

Internal/Parliament observations..Good, younger, energetic coach can change this program to be competitive against real competition Look at Fuentes, look at Herman, etc., etc. DB too nice, loyalty matters to him above accountability, not motivated, bad in-game, not enough x's and o's, accepts status quo of beating > 100 ranked FBS as ok, etc., etc..

Parliament Conclusion.."JK needs to make coaching changes to get this program on the map or it dies of irrelevance. The current coaching is not congruent with the broader Rice athletic vision and goals. Thus, it won't be achieved w/ current people. Sure, Rice is moving forward but the glacier-like speed of progress that has now appeared to have plateaued is not fast enough relative to the fast moving FBS world around it."

I don't think you could go to any other FBS message board where you have such diametrically opposed views of the root cause of the current situation and views on the head coach.

(11-06-2015 10:20 AM)owl40 Wrote:  On one of the hundred other DB threads that have been here, I posted about how other coaches sing his praises above/beyond others. Most of feedback was, 'well that is just coachspeak..everyone does that' While I agree the coaching fraternity is pretty back slapping and only complementary of each other, I disagree that the volume for DB is the same as others. It is much higher. He gets more praise. This week from Kugler at UTEP (notice last sentence)

On Rice being a model for what Kugler is trying to do at UTEP:

“Yes because I think they’re well-coached. I think they’re disciplined. I think Coach (David) Bailiff does an unbelievable job. They’re always in the hunt. They compete. They play smart football. I just admire their program and their kids. They’re classy. They don’t do the crazy stuff that has nothing to do with football. They just play football and they try to win football games, and that’s what I want this football program to be and that’s what we aspire to be.

'thats what we aspire to be...' So here you have another FBS coach specifically calling out DB/Rice is what he wants for his program to grow into. Hmmm. Most here reading this probably are some combo of laughing/shaking their heads at those words.

External observation... Rice is the problem, not DB. It is a tough place to recruit w/ academics, not a history of winning in last 50+ years, culture, funding, $ to pay assistants, small school, facilities below peers, etc, etc.

External Conclusion: "So why should anyone be surprised when they lose against teams who have better tools to compete? DB is winning against realistic competition in those circumstances and doing things the right way. Amazing job. Just think if Rice made same investments and commitments as its private Texas and private Academic peers with DB at the helm? Give him the tools Rice. You have a good one there."

Internal/Parliament observations..Good, younger, energetic coach can change this program to be competitive against real competition Look at Fuentes, look at Herman, etc., etc. DB too nice, loyalty matters to him above accountability, not motivated, bad in-game, not enough x's and o's, accepts status quo of beating > 100 ranked FBS as ok, etc., etc..

Parliament Conclusion.."JK needs to make coaching changes to get this program on the map or it dies of irrelevance. The current coaching is not congruent with the broader Rice athletic vision and goals. Thus, it won't be achieved w/ current people. Sure, Rice is moving forward but the glacier-like speed of progress that has now appeared to have plateaued is not fast enough relative to the fast moving FBS world around it."

I don't think you could go to any other FBS message board where you have such diametrically opposed views of the root cause of the current situation and views on the head coach.

Again, those are other coaches praising other coaches. It's all fluff.

Here's Bailiff on UTEP:

"We play a UTEP that’s much improved this year."

Really? UTEP is doing much worse than last year and is barely squeaking by, like Rice, to terrible teams: NMSU, Incarnate Word (FCS), and FAU.

(11-06-2015 09:40 AM)MemOwl Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 09:22 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

Nope, not at all. Not any more than you would say that about LaTech when we blew them out in 2013.

It was one game with a lot of factors that lined up for Tech.

Do you believe that Holtz and Fuente (and I'll throw in Brohm at WKU) are better football coaches than Bailiff?

Ignoring coaches praising each other, I think the real answer is decided by ADs when they hire Holtz, Fuente, and Brohm before Bailiff.

(11-06-2015 09:37 AM)WIowl Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 09:22 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:50 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  You are a lot more worried about the margin of score in 2014 than I am/was. LaTech was pointing at the Rice game ever since we blew them out in 2013. They won. Congratulate them and move on.

So you are saying that Rice is lacking both the talent and the drive that La Tech has?

Nope, not at all. Not any more than you would say that about LaTech when we blew them out in 2013.

It was one game with a lot of factors that lined up for Tech.

Except now it is two games in a row that they've blown us out.

Exactly my point.

Younger isn't always better. Should we dispose of the baseball coach because he's getting up there in years?

Aggies will let us have their up and coming head coach.

(11-08-2015 11:22 AM)Pellet Wrote:  Younger isn't always better. Should we dispose of the baseball coach because he's getting up there in years?

You are right. No we should not.

Don't know your age, but if you are young, you should know that you will probably slow down and be less "hungry" after you hit a certain age. Sometimes this is due to attitude, sometimes to declining physical condition. It does not happen to everyone, but it happens to a lot of people.

I was sitting with a man at the Basketball Dinner Thursday who was a former CEO with two major corporations. He's now in his 80s and he said there's no way that he could do now what he did then either mentally or physically. I personally would like a hungry, eager young coach than a retread from another school. The really good ones like Saban, etc. are too rich for our blood. I would expect when we do hire a new coach JK will take the same approach as he did with the basketball coaches. We looked for the top 3 assistant coaches and that's how we got Rhoades and Langley.

(11-08-2015 03:44 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  I was sitting with a man at the Basketball Dinner Thursday who was a former CEO with two major corporations. He's now in his 80s and he said there's no way that he could do now what he did then either mentally or physically. I personally would like a hungry, eager young coach than a retread from another school. The really good ones like Saban, etc. are too rich for our blood. I would expect when we do hire a new coach JK will take the same approach as he did with the basketball coaches. We looked for the top 3 assistant coaches and that's how we got Rhoades and Langley.

+1,000
This