Listening to the first half from halfway around the world, I tuned out when penalties negated a great defensive effort inside the red zone. If DB cannot rally the troops, do we need another leader? As many other posters have mentioned, DB has many great qualities and I find him very personable and someone who has the Institute's best interests at heart.

I look to the NYM run to the World Series this year as inspiration. We cannot outspend the P5 on coaching talent! Maybe instead of hiring "proven" retreads, we move DB into a special advisor position for JK and hire some smart young entrepreneurial football minds (new HC, grad assistants and assistant coaches who would work on their MBA with a Sports Management angle at the Jones School, or other graduate school interests while figuring out how disrupt the game flow and best use the talent we have.)

We know we will lose them eventually to the NY Yankees of College Football but by replenishing and using our assets we could position ourselves to break the cartel and again become relevant.

The international angle is also worth mentioning again. If we are again forced into a Wagner type game, through in the towel and schedule an international team as a "scrimmage" or non qualifying game for bowl eligibility. We already know that 5-7 or 6-7 teams may be in if not enough teams qualify. So lets schedule UNAM (largest University in the Americas), Monterey Tech, Waseda, McGill, UToronto or any other near peer institution that wants to tee it up.

This wasn't my first idea, but it's not horribly different from yours. When you spit-ball, you throw 'any' idea out there, right? You vet them all and throw out the ones that don't hold water... and keep the ones that do. I think there are numerous ideas that have merit in these both

(10-30-2015 11:59 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You know what? I've changed my mind. I'll go ahead and put another plan out there....

IF David isn't willing to change, then I'd STILL hire RU... and rather than buy out DB, I'd try and retain him in some capacity. He DOES have some very desirable skills and would be a great asset to RU. I'd pay RU less than David currently makes, but then I'd pay his assistants far more.. meaning he had a better shot at hiring better ones... and then I'd put ALL SORTS of incentives in his contract not tied to wins, but tied to revenue (not including money games but YES including home and homes). If he can put 40,000 paying butts in the seats to watch the #115 team play or get $5mm in corporate sponsorship for it, then who are we to argue with it? If he's not generating the wins the University wants as well, then you can pay him for the revenue and fire him for the losses... but I think it entirely inconsistent that you could generate substantial revenue from a 'bad' team. If David didn't want to stay and forced us to buy him out, then I'd try and hire someone LIKE David (character and connection wise) in some sort of 'operations' capacity to help RU.

Throwing numbers just to have something to talk about... I think DB makes 700 and the co-OCs make 150ea and the dc makes closer to 200 and the assistants make about 90. Ballpark that at $1.8mm. Being an unproven commodity, I'd pay RU 400k, his o and dc closer to 250 ea and if I did the math right, his 7 assistants would now make 130. The overall staff (by the salaries) would probably be better for the same money. Then I'd add incentives such as (and again, pulling numbers from air for a concept) each 5,000 increase in average attendance is worth at $25/ticket for 6 home games would be worth 750,000 to the University. I'd pay him 100k of the first 5,000... 150k of the second... 200k of the third and 250k of the 4th. 700,000 to generate $3mm in additional ticket revenue. As I'd want him directly involved in other fundraising, and of course the product on the field also matters, I'd give him a piece of all increases in corporate sponsorship as well... say $50,000 of the first million... 100,000 of the second... 150,000 of the third.

In that scenario... he'd be making 1.4mm which would be among the top in g5, with his assistants well compensated for g5 for increasing the attendance by 20,000, putting $3mm more in the coffers and increasing corporate sponsorship by 3mm. $5mm net. Work out a sharing with the university where the 'expenses' of generating those revenues come off the top, and then the remaining (for the sake of argument, let's say $4mm) is split up with 50% going to increased spending on football and the remainder split between 'other' sports and a decrease in the institutional support.

For anyone who thinks this is crazy, it is important to note that DB had 3 years experience as an administrator/head coach when we hired him and Tom Hermann had zero. We could keep Bailiff at his present salary (no buy out) and hire RU under my formula and STILL not be dramatically different from what UH has been paying for the past 5 years or so now... or what we were rumored to have offered Toad.

It's not that I don't value RU. I do greatly. I simply have great confidence that he'd succeed in the 'other' areas and so I think it is easier to 'sell' if you package it that way.... and by offering better assistant coaching salaries, you greatly increase the talent pool available to assist him.

The one criticism I have with these ideas of retaining DB as a counselor or whatever to the AD.

If we continue to pay him 800k, we are breaking the bank that we are supposedly breaking if we buy him out. We would be paying both his salary and a coaches salary. Again, perhaps not a problem, but that is as expensive as buying him out, and I keep hearing that we cannot afford a buyout. It also assumes he will agree to it.

Otherwise, we pay him less, but that assumes he would take a pay cut.

I'd offer him a rolling 5-year extension with a $100,000 buyout. Maybe $100,000 per unexpired year. I doubt he'd take it, but that's where I'd start.

(10-31-2015 01:10 PM)Ranger Wrote:  The one criticism I have with these ideas of retaining DB as a counselor or whatever to the AD.

If we continue to pay him 800k, we are breaking the bank that we are supposedly breaking if we buy him out. We would be paying both his salary and a coaches salary. Again, perhaps not a problem, but that is as expensive as buying him out, and I keep hearing that we cannot afford a buyout. It also assumes he will agree to it.

Otherwise, we pay him less, but that assumes he would take a pay cut.

Generalizing purely for brevity...

The purpose of the way I proposed it was to give everyone a little something that they want. I'm sure RU would want and deserve more, but I've given him a way to get even more than that. I'm sure we'd love for DB to take a pay cut or skip his buyout, but I've given us a way to reward him for his good skills and take a variety of different options. He can stay and hire RU. He can leave and we hire someone 'like' him (but for less) to augment RU, or he can take that position himself. The administration wouldn't be paying for a buyout and getting nothing in return, or wouldn't be paying a lot more for 'coaching' without getting an inarguably 'different' approach to generating revenues (on top of the traditional methods).

The buy-in for RU and a higher paid staff probably isn't any more, and may be far less than the cost of buying out DB and replacing him with a 'traditional' coach and staff, even if we ignore the potential revenue enhancements... which a traditional approach does not have.

(10-31-2015 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd offer him a rolling 5-year extension with a $100,000 buyout. Maybe $100,000 per unexpired year. I doubt he'd take it, but that's where I'd start.

How long was Bailiff extended? Through the 2018 season, right? Ouch! I think JK realizes now that extending Bailiff was a big mistake and is only going to put him in growing dilemma. Getting rid of Bailiff this season is too expensive, but after next season, JK may be compelled to make the call. Making Bailiff shake up his staff may be best near-term option, but Bailiff has been stubborn about going with 'his' guys.

I think even Bailiff understands he's not going to get another extension. The results Bailiff is producing (incl. incompetence against decent competition) just aren't going to cut it. He's paid a very healthy salary ($800k) for only being able to defeat weak competition. This is evolving into another Willis Wilson situation, but I think JK will be willing to make the break, just as CDC was willing to cut off WTW.

(10-31-2015 02:01 PM)Bay Area Owl Wrote:  

(10-31-2015 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd offer him a rolling 5-year extension with a $100,000 buyout. Maybe $100,000 per unexpired year. I doubt he'd take it, but that's where I'd start.

How long was Bailiff extended? Through the 2018 season, right? Ouch! I think JK realizes now that extending Bailiff was a big mistake and is only going to put him in growing dilemma. Getting rid of Bailiff this season is too expensive, but after next season, JK may be compelled to make the call. Making Bailiff shake up his staff may be best near-term option, but Bailiff has been stubborn about going with 'his' guys.

I think even Bailiff understands he's not going to get another extension. The results Bailiff is producing (incl. incompetence against decent competition) just aren't going to cut it. He's paid a very healthy salary ($800k) for only being able to defeat weak competition. This is evolving into another Willis Wilson situation, but I think JK will be willing to make the break, just as CDC was willing to cut off WTW.

How much is the buyout, and how does a buyout work. If he would get another job making as much or more, would we have to pay?

Regarding JK's attitude about the wisdom of the extension, I would suspect that he indeed has buyer's remorse. But you cannot blame JK for the decision. He was fairly new at the time.. RG had left him a lot of problems, the basketball situation being the main one. He had reason to believe that football had finally turned the corner. With all of the other problems, resolving the football situation for the near future in what seemed to be a good way made sense.

(10-31-2015 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd offer him a rolling 5-year extension with a $100,000 buyout. Maybe $100,000 per unexpired year. I doubt he'd take it, but that's where I'd start.

69, unless I have completely misread your previous posts, you have on numerous occasions acknowledged that DB will not get us to where we need to be. If my reading is correct, how can you use the words Bailiff and extension in the same sentence.

(10-31-2015 02:12 PM)Ranger Wrote:  

(10-31-2015 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd offer him a rolling 5-year extension with a $100,000 buyout. Maybe $100,000 per unexpired year. I doubt he'd take it, but that's where I'd start.

69, unless I have completely misread your previous posts, you have on numerous occasions acknowledged that DB will not get us to where we need to be. If my reading is correct, how can you use the words Bailiff and extension in the same sentence.

I don't think he can, but that's different from knowing that he cannot. After 2009 or 2010 or 2011, I did not think he could take us this far. Hell, after Nicholls I didn't think he could take us this far. I think he has done enough to get a shot with the EZF, basically the shot we didn't give Willis with Tudor.

But note what I did there. At the same time I would extend him, I would reduce the buyout to the point where he is not much more than an at will employee. He has the five year term to show recruits he will be here, if things turn back south we can make a move in a hurry, and if somebody wants to hire him away the buyout doesn't stop them.

So keep DB as HC, cheerleader, recruiter and force upon him new young smart cheap blood as assistants and grad assistants (he doesn't have to be the heavy forcing out the loyal but ineffective assistants.) DB does what he does best, sell Rice to Mom and Dad of Billy Bluechip and serves as a well paid mentor (and watchdog to prevent the sort of unethical behavior rampant at many schools) to the young Turks brought in to right the ship.

Who here knows the current $$ for the buy out? Why do you assume that it is more than we can afford? Why do you assume that it is not already low? Why do you assume that JK was too stupid to foresee this scenario at the time of the last extension? I have no idea what the buy out would cost, but I'm my default assumption is not that JK is bad at his job.

(10-31-2015 08:18 PM)temchugh Wrote:  Who here knows the current $$ for the buy out? Why do you assume that it is more than we can afford? Why do you assume that it is not already low? Why do you assume that JK was too stupid to foresee this scenario at the time of the last extension? I have no idea what the buy out would cost, but I'm my default assumption is not that JK is bad at his job.

My understanding of a buy out is the amount another school would pay Rice to hire DB out of his existing contract. If we fire DB we would have to pay the entire contract amount to DB rather than a buy out amount if I understand it correctly. Need a little legal help here Owl69.

(10-31-2015 07:57 PM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  So keep DB as HC, cheerleader, recruiter and force upon him new young smart cheap blood as assistants and grad assistants (he doesn't have to be the heavy forcing out the loyal but ineffective assistants.) DB does what he does best, sell Rice to Mom and Dad of Billy Bluechip and serves as a well paid mentor (and watchdog to prevent the sort of unethical behavior rampant at many schools) to the young Turks brought in to right the ship.

That is an almost certain recipe for unmitigated disaster. Think about organizational dynamics in the real world. Same things apply here.

(10-31-2015 09:09 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-31-2015 07:57 PM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  So keep DB as HC, cheerleader, recruiter and force upon him new young smart cheap blood as assistants and grad assistants (he doesn't have to be the heavy forcing out the loyal but ineffective assistants.) DB does what he does best, sell Rice to Mom and Dad of Billy Bluechip and serves as a well paid mentor (and watchdog to prevent the sort of unethical behavior rampant at many schools) to the young Turks brought in to right the ship.

That is an almost certain recipe for unmitigated disaster. Think about organizational dynamics in the real world. Same things apply here.

+1

I worry that we are approaching the point where the EZF may become a white elephant. Interest in the program is declining among a good many of the long time older alums/fans, we attract very very few new fans, and interest from the media is almost zip. Without enthusiasm in the program it will be extremely hard to raise the money to continue renovating HRS. It is becoming easier to talk yourself out of going to a football game and that isn't a good sign.

(11-01-2015 07:17 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  I worry that we are approaching the point where the EZF may become a white elephant. Interest in the program is declining among a good many of the long time older alums/fans, we attract very very few new fans, and interest from the media is almost zip. Without enthusiasm in the program it will be extremely hard to raise the money to continue renovating HRS. It is becoming easier to talk yourself out of going to a football game and that isn't a good sign.

Just compare the atmosphere in Rice Stadium on Friday night to the atmosphere in Martin Stadium on Saturday night--in worse weather. And Wazzu may have been deader than we were before the Pirate got there.

One thought struck me about that game. Wazzu played surprisingly well defensively for a Mike Leach team. If Bailiff goes, one guy we might want to take a look at is Alex Grinch. Anybody willing to be DC for a head coach who throws it 70 times a game is definitely up for a challenge. He was at New Hampshire with Chip Kelly before coming to Wazzu with Leach, so he'd be picking an OC off either of two pretty productive coaching trees. In between, he was with Gary Pinkel at Mizzou, so he knows how a successful SEC staff works.

(10-31-2015 08:58 PM)ricex Wrote:  

(10-31-2015 08:18 PM)temchugh Wrote:  Who here knows the current $$ for the buy out? Why do you assume that it is more than we can afford? Why do you assume that it is not already low? Why do you assume that JK was too stupid to foresee this scenario at the time of the last extension? I have no idea what the buy out would cost, but I'm my default assumption is not that JK is bad at his job.

My understanding of a buy out is the amount another school would pay Rice to hire DB out of his existing contract. If we fire DB we would have to pay the entire contract amount to DB rather than a buy out amount if I understand it correctly. Need a little legal help here Owl69.

It's a contract. You can pretty much contract for anything the parties agree to, as long as it is legal. I don't know the specifics of Bailiff's deal, but I know how those deals work in general and I wouldn't expect this one to vary materially. When there are variances, it is probably because of some imbalance in bargaining power, which doesn't exist here. If we tried to hire Urban Meyer or Nick Saban, we'd probably have to agree to a huge buyout if we fired him, but he could probably leave us very cheaply. I understand that Frank Solich's deal at Ohio operates that way, but he hasn't done well enough there to get anyone to hire him away. Lou Holtz's contracts always had a provision that if Notre Dame offered him, he could get out free.

Typically buyouts operate both ways. There's some amount he has to pay back if he leaves, and there's some amount you have to pay him if you fire him. The two amounts may be the same, or they may be different. They do generally tend to track to some extent, which makes sense because they are typically bargained for. As a rule, the more you want him to pay if he leaves, the more you are going to have to pay him if you fire him. Usually it's a formula based on number of remaining years. Something like 50% of salary for remaining years might be a typical range where the numbers fall, so if you have three years left at $700,000, the contractual buyout is $1,050,000. Remember that the two will typically be bargained together, and the coach is typically motivated more by not wanting such a big buyout that he can't leave if the right job comes knocking. He expects to succeed, not fail.

Remember also that the amount is frequently bargained further if push actually comes to shove. A fired coach may take less to get confidentiality about certain things or to get his assistants taken care of or some other consideration. The school may take less to get certain concessions in other areas as well.

I'm telling you guys:

http://www.gofrogs.com/sports/m-footbl/m...79468.html

(11-01-2015 07:17 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  It is becoming easier to talk yourself out of going to a football game and that isn't a good sign.

Yep. I can tell you that, for me personally, moving family/life events around so I can watch this season's team ended with Friday night's debacle.

(11-01-2015 10:02 AM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  I'm telling you guys:

http://www.gofrogs.com/sports/m-footbl/m...79468.html

Telling us he's a good one to get?
Or that "co-offensive coordinators" can work?

(11-01-2015 10:33 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  

(11-01-2015 10:02 AM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  I'm telling you guys:

http://www.gofrogs.com/sports/m-footbl/m...79468.html

Telling us he's a good one to get?
Or that "co-offensive coordinators" can work?

Ha! The former.