(10-27-2015 10:51 AM)Dukester Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:08 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  After what I saw on Saturday, it may be a blessing if he leaves. I think the success of this team since last year is almost all Vad Lee. Withers was a DC for many D-I schools, including Urban Meyer. And what I saw on Saturday was the worst defense I have ever seen. Ever. And to make matters worse, nothing was done to keep the ball in Vad and the offense's hands and out of Richmond's hands(punting both times around midfield in the 2nd half...no onside kick with 4 min remaining). Rocco out-coached the hell out of Withers on Saturday. And Rocco stinks.

I know he is fighting personnel issues on defense, but it should not have been THAT bad.

Oh my....

I've not been anti-Withers, but my accolades have not come as quickly as others.

I like and thought he was a good hire. I was more unimpressed by his start than most. I was impressed with the progress of the team in the 2nd half of last year. The season ended in an unimpressive home playoff loss to Liberty

With that my grade for his first year was C+, much to the chagrin of others.

To me winning is more important than style. I love a good defense, but must admit the offense has been quite fun to watch. It appears Withers runs a clean program. You screwup, and you're suspended. Impressed with that. I like things he's done to the team incorporated with the students and vice versa. 14 regular season in a row is amazing consistency even if against lower than previous competition. He seems to be able to relate to the players. He's done decent with low grade assistants.

My negatives he can be a jerk when losing. His defense has never been real good. It's late in his second year and with below par injuries that defense was brutal last week. He came in talking upgrading the schedule and that is not happening.

Question in my mind - How good a coach is Withers without a top 2 QB in the nation? I think he's going to be good without Vad, but time will tell.

My grade for Withers for 1 & 2/3s season is a B/B-

The offense is an A+
Defense is a D
Results - B

We've beaten the bad teams, but the playoff game and Richmond game were key games I felt we were obviously outcoached.

I'm excited about our future with Withers, but would like and expect to see better results with D and big games.

Good post Dukester. I would add on D+ for Special Teams though (with offense and defense weighted twice what special teams is rated). So an overall B-.

At times SP has been HORRENDOUS.
-MD with multiple personal fouls for hitting the punt returner early or after a fair catch signal was given.
-UD game with multiple offsides on kickoffs (there were 2-3 for the game, 2 on the same kickoff, one of which cost JMU a successfull onside conversion).
-W&M game with 2 blocked punts, 1 of which was so bad that Kendall Anderson literally grabbed the ball off of Kane's foot and waltzed into the endzone with it. Now W&M came into the game leading the nation in blocks (don't remember if it was FG & punts or just punts) and JMU was STILL unprepared.
-Terrible kick coverage at times this year. The 286 kick return yards given up against TU might have been a JMU record.
-How many onsides kicks has JMU given up this year? 3? (SMU (almost cost us the game), (RU (may have cost us the game) and was there a 3rd?). Now something like only 10% or so (ballpark) of onsides kicks are successfull..
-TU game SP literally cost JMU 3 TDs.
*Fake punt when MIND BOGGLING that no one realized the TU QB was back to punt instead of the TU punter and they converted a 4th and 10 fake punt which led to a TU TD.
*TU blocked a JMU punt which led to a TU TD.
*TU had a close to 80 yd punt return which led to a TU TD.
Now there have been some good SP things, but overall not good..

(10-27-2015 12:33 PM)PurpleStreamers Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 12:14 PM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:34 AM)Big Duke Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:08 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  After what I saw on Saturday, it may be a blessing if he leaves. I think the success of this team since last year is almost all Vad Lee. Withers was a DC for many D-I schools, including Urban Meyer. And what I saw on Saturday was the worst defense I have ever seen. Ever. And to make matters worse, nothing was done to keep the ball in Vad and the offense's hands and out of Richmond's hands(punting both times around midfield in the 2nd half...no onside kick with 4 min remaining). Rocco out-coached the hell out of Withers on Saturday. And Rocco stinks.

I know he is fighting personnel issues on defense, but it should not have been THAT bad.

Well oh my. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST ONE GAME THIS YEAR. Fire everyone, cut all scholarships and put the for sale sign out on BFS. This board is getting rediculious

Yea, because that's exactly what I said in my post. Calm down. It's like if someone criticizes EW, people get their panties in a bunch. By no means am I saying to fire Withers - that would be lunacy given his record over the past year and half and the strides that he's made in player discipline. All I am saying is that the jury is still out on whether our success has more to do with him, or that we have a special player in Vad Lee. From what I have seen, I am leaning toward that success being VL related.

What do we think our record would be if Birdsong was the QB for the past year and a half? How likely is it that EW is able to get quarterback talent like VL to come to JMU consistently? Can people seriously not be concerned with our defense and how they are playing in year 2 of EW?

With all due respect - wait a second, what am I saying. With no due respect, you're just wrong. I love Vad but this is an ENTIRELY different program with EW than MM and it's waaaay beyond the QB1. With the same players, MM would've used Vad, Cardon, Abdullah, and Cheatham with an occasional desperate fade route to Domo Taylor or maybe a jet sweep to Ravenel. EW's regime has consistently found ways to put ALL of it athletes (Davis, Miller, Tutt, Hyman, etc.) in space which is one of JMU's bigger advantages over other teams (depth of speed and athletic ability). And don't even bring up Birdsong. He knew he wasn't a fit in the system and left and is now picking up splinters on Marshall's bench. Small sample size of course, but I'd much rather have Schor this weekend than MB and that's not meant as a dig at the GingaNinja, it's just that quick decision-making and pace of play are huge in this offense and those never seemed to be his strong suits.

I said I am leaning toward VL being the primary reason for our success, not that it's fact. And I bring up Birdsong only in that he is a typical FCS talent...I am of the opinion that Vad is an FBS talent.

I am wrong that the jury is still out on Withers? I am wrong to be dissatisfied with the defense at this point in year 2? Feel free to keep ignoring the defensive issues though...with all due respect

we're all dukes here..but yeah when i brought up the D issues before this game with UR, it was not well received...critiques (and applying football knowledge) are not bashing the dukes, we want them better because we see the potential!

that said, wording matters. sky is not falling, but we have work to do...starts with pressure and coverage - ankarah is a beast and needs to use his speed.

(10-27-2015 12:14 PM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:34 AM)Big Duke Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:08 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  After what I saw on Saturday, it may be a blessing if he leaves. I think the success of this team since last year is almost all Vad Lee. Withers was a DC for many D-I schools, including Urban Meyer. And what I saw on Saturday was the worst defense I have ever seen. Ever. And to make matters worse, nothing was done to keep the ball in Vad and the offense's hands and out of Richmond's hands(punting both times around midfield in the 2nd half...no onside kick with 4 min remaining). Rocco out-coached the hell out of Withers on Saturday. And Rocco stinks.

I know he is fighting personnel issues on defense, but it should not have been THAT bad.

Well oh my. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST ONE GAME THIS YEAR. Fire everyone, cut all scholarships and put the for sale sign out on BFS. This board is getting rediculious

Yea, because that's exactly what I said in my post. Calm down. It's like if someone criticizes EW, people get their panties in a bunch. By no means am I saying to fire Withers - that would be lunacy given his record over the past year and half and the strides that he's made in player discipline. All I am saying is that the jury is still out on whether our success has more to do with him, or that we have a special player in Vad Lee. From what I have seen, I am leaning toward that success being VL related.

What do we think our record would be if Birdsong was the QB for the past year and a half? How likely is it that EW is able to get quarterback talent like VL to come to JMU consistently? Can people seriously not be concerned with our defense and how they are playing in year 2 of EW?

Of course Vad is a special player and has a lot to do with our success. Is he the sole reason? I don't believe he is. Will we have as explosive of an offense without him, probably not. But last I checked, we have 11 players on the field and many of them very talented.

Prior to the game Saturday and our very poor defensive performance, the board was erupting with NC expectations and the thought of Coach jumping ship to greener FBS pastures. Well as Coach stated, "we got our A$$ beat". Was it coaching issues and player issues? Absolutely! It was one game. I'm not questioning your love for the Dukes, just tired of the "it may be a blessing if he leaves mentality" He's coached here for a year and a half. The changes that have taken place since the MM problems have been a vast improvement. Give the man a chance to continue to develop our program before we call for him to move on.

I'm not just ranting at you adogg6jmu, just can't believe how quick many of OUR fan base attack. I guess it's just the older I get the more I realize patience is truly a virtue.

I now step off my soapbox and fade back into the background.

I don't see any possible way Withers lands the MD or UVA job. I think both of those programs are in a position where they cannot afford a misstep with their next hire. I'd expect both of them to throw the bank at a successful coordinator or head coach somewhere in FBS land. The guy at Memphis comes to mind first but I know there are a few other quality possibilities out there.

I personally see Dino Babers (2nd year HC @ BGSU) as a target for UVA and Maryland. He has a very similar resume as Withers (hasn't been HC for long) but the season he's putting together at BGSU is impressive given the talent there (beat UMD by 21, rolled up ~ 40 points on Tenn., 3 pt. loss to Memphis, and blowing out MAC teams). He's on the radar at all these schools and is from the Art Briles coaching tree, thus his teams can roll up points. I see him as Withers type guy philosophically and in terms of his ability to recruit. I would see Babers as a more sure bet, if there is such a thing in coaching. Thus, I would imagine if someone is looking for a HC with the potential to develop an explosive offense and someone that can recruit the Mid-Atlantic, Babers is off the board first. There are, and are going to be (potentially Beamer if they don't win 3 out of the next 4) a lot of FBS coaching vacancies regionally and nationally this year.
My one worry in the immediate future is Withers bailing for a MAC school (they could lose 3 coaches to P5) if he doesn't think there is chance we are moving up soon. He's familiar with the MAC recruiting footprint and he would likely make more cash. I sense some frustration when Withers talks publicly about moving up. Not sure what he was told when he got here, but I'm worried he's going to grow impatient.

MAC coaches don't make much more than Withers (outside of WMU's coach). He actually makes more than some of them do. I don't see him going to a job there unless he feels it's his last option to get an FBS coaching job.

(10-27-2015 11:54 AM)Dukester Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:51 AM)JMUDuke25 Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:45 AM)Dukester Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:21 AM)JMUDuke25 Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:51 AM)Dukester Wrote:  Question in my mind - How good a coach is Withers without a top 2 QB in the nation? I think he's going to be good without Vad, but time will tell.

No coach is good without great players on basically any level. I'd say over 50% of his job is to get great players here.

One could also say how good is Lee without Withers? Chicken or egg argument. Bottom line is wins and losses and I'm fine with our performance under EW.

We won't know how good Vad is without Withers in the offense, we will about Withers.

What was Mickey's record with Rascati and Landers versus without them?
What was Rip's record with Mike C versus without him.

I believe Mickey would of made the playoff each of the years he missed in the last 10 with a QB the caliber of landers, Rascati, Cawley, Lee.

I think it's a "Val"id question.

Which goes back to great players win. Withers job is to get great players. So far he's done that well.

In 1AA the ultimate gauge, in my opinion, is playoff success. Small body of work at this point, but he should get an opportunity to improve on that shortly.

Bingo.

(10-27-2015 01:33 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  I personally see Dino Babers (2nd year HC @ BGSU) as a target for UVA and Maryland. He has a very similar resume as Withers (hasn't been HC for long) but the season he's putting together at BGSU is impressive given the talent there (beat UMD by 21, rolled up ~ 40 points on Tenn., 3 pt. loss to Memphis, and blowing out MAC teams). He's on the radar at all these schools and is from the Art Briles coaching tree, thus his teams can roll up points. I see him as Withers type guy philosophically and in terms of his ability to recruit. I would see Babers as a more sure bet, if there is such a thing in coaching. Thus, I would imagine if someone is looking for a HC with the potential to develop an explosive offense and someone that can recruit the Mid-Atlantic, Babers is off the board first. There are, and are going to be (potentially Beamer if they don't win 3 out of the next 4) a lot of FBS coaching vacancies regionally and nationally this year.
My one worry in the immediate future is Withers bailing for a MAC school (they could lose 3 coaches to P5) if he doesn't think there is chance we are moving up soon. He's familiar with the MAC recruiting footprint and he would likely make more cash. I sense some frustration when Withers talks publicly about moving up. Not sure what he was told when he got here, but I'm worried he's going to grow impatient.

And that's the "Trickle Down Effect" or is it Affect?

Who could fault Withers for bolting for a CUSA job or even MAC at this point. Many Group of 5 jobs will come available this year - several openings will be because coaches leave for BCS schools, and several openings will be because of firings.

(10-27-2015 01:46 PM)bridgeforthduke Wrote:  MAC coaches don't make much more than Withers (outside of WMU's coach). He actually makes more than some of them do. I don't see him going to a job there unless he feels it's his last option to get an FBS coaching job.

Fair enough. I think if he bails to a MAC school that will tell us quite a bit about our prospects for moving up anytime soon.

(10-27-2015 12:52 PM)Big Duke Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 12:14 PM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:34 AM)Big Duke Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:08 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  After what I saw on Saturday, it may be a blessing if he leaves. I think the success of this team since last year is almost all Vad Lee. Withers was a DC for many D-I schools, including Urban Meyer. And what I saw on Saturday was the worst defense I have ever seen. Ever. And to make matters worse, nothing was done to keep the ball in Vad and the offense's hands and out of Richmond's hands(punting both times around midfield in the 2nd half...no onside kick with 4 min remaining). Rocco out-coached the hell out of Withers on Saturday. And Rocco stinks.

I know he is fighting personnel issues on defense, but it should not have been THAT bad.

Well oh my. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST ONE GAME THIS YEAR. Fire everyone, cut all scholarships and put the for sale sign out on BFS. This board is getting rediculious

Yea, because that's exactly what I said in my post. Calm down. It's like if someone criticizes EW, people get their panties in a bunch. By no means am I saying to fire Withers - that would be lunacy given his record over the past year and half and the strides that he's made in player discipline. All I am saying is that the jury is still out on whether our success has more to do with him, or that we have a special player in Vad Lee. From what I have seen, I am leaning toward that success being VL related.

What do we think our record would be if Birdsong was the QB for the past year and a half? How likely is it that EW is able to get quarterback talent like VL to come to JMU consistently? Can people seriously not be concerned with our defense and how they are playing in year 2 of EW?

Of course Vad is a special player and has a lot to do with our success. Is he the sole reason? I don't believe he is. Will we have as explosive of an offense without him, probably not. But last I checked, we have 11 players on the field and many of them very talented.

Prior to the game Saturday and our very poor defensive performance, the board was erupting with NC expectations and the thought of Coach jumping ship to greener FBS pastures. Well as Coach stated, "we got our A$$ beat". Was it coaching issues and player issues? Absolutely! It was one game. I'm not questioning your love for the Dukes, just tired of the "it may be a blessing if he leaves mentality" He's coached here for a year and a half. The changes that have taken place since the MM problems have been a vast improvement. Give the man a chance to continue to develop our program before we call for him to move on.

I'm not just ranting at you adogg6jmu, just can't believe how quick many of OUR fan base attack. I guess it's just the older I get the more I realize patience is truly a virtue.

I now step off my soapbox and fade back into the background.

I'm on record thinking Withers was a good hire. Had many complimentary items about him and also express my concerns. Nobody said Vad is the only reason for our success. I just don't know how much of it is attributable to him. Take a look at 'Nova - how difference did their QB make? I think most would say a lot. A great QB makes a difference in any level of football.

Not a bigger fan of Mickey Matthews than me, but no way if you replace Rasacti in '04, or Landers in '08 with Birdsong or Thorpe I think we have near the success.

As far as being a good hire the jury is not out for me. As far as is Withers gone to 1A in the next year or two, or can he build a defense good enough to get us to even the Semi's is still to be determined in my opinion.

All this speculation about Withers being gone after this season before JMU has even made 1 deep playoff run (which might not happen this season) is plain silly..

(10-27-2015 02:06 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  All this speculation about Withers being gone after this season before JMU has even made 1 deep playoff run (which might not happen this season) is plain silly..

Not really.

7-0 for the first time in JMU history. Top 3 ranking. Prior to last week we there was a decent chance of running the table meaning very favorable playoff set up. Plus a very exciting offense.

Now of course he's have to win some playoff games, but that was looking like a very reasonable possibility this time last week. Plus all the national exposure.

What a difference 4 days makes.

(10-27-2015 03:04 PM)Dukester Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 02:06 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  All this speculation about Withers being gone after this season before JMU has even made 1 deep playoff run (which might not happen this season) is plain silly..

Not really.

7-0 for the first time in JMU history. Top 3 ranking. Prior to last week we there was a decent chance of running the table meaning very favorable playoff set up. Plus a very exciting offense.

Now of course he's have to win some playoff games, but that was looking like a very reasonable possibility this time last week. Plus all the national exposure.

What a difference 4 days makes.

I'm not sure if all that would have helped , he is a older coach and with all the jobs he has had the jury is probably out on him in the FBS ranks. I think a lower level FBS job will offer him this off-season and he will be gone.

(10-27-2015 03:04 PM)Dukester Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 02:06 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  All this speculation about Withers being gone after this season before JMU has even made 1 deep playoff run (which might not happen this season) is plain silly..

Not really.

7-0 for the first time in JMU history. Top 3 ranking. Prior to last week we there was a decent chance of running the table meaning very favorable playoff set up. Plus a very exciting offense.

Now of course he's have to win some playoff games, but that was looking like a very reasonable possibility this time last week. Plus all the national exposure.

What a difference 4 days makes.

I got you. But if you're a say G5 school, are you going to hire as your new HC a coach I-AA HC who had only 1 deep playoff run? Like you said in the prior post, the ultimate gauge of I-AA success is playoff record, and given JMU's enormous facilities and recruiting advantages, I think they'd want to see at least 2 deep playoff runs before taking a chance on hiring a I-AA guy..

I know there is Mike London. 2 playoff runs at RU (won NC, lost qtr finals) before he was hired by UVA.

I remember Babers from EIU who I had to look up. EIU had back to back 2-9 before Babers was hired as HC. 1st season he took them to the playoffs (lost 1st round). 2nd season lost 3rd round/qtrfinals to TU when Terrance West ran all over them. But he didn't inherit near the talent or facilities that Withers did at JMU, with a much more transformational turnaround before Bowling Green hired him.

Besides Babers, who else if anyone has been hired as a I-A HC after only 1 deep playoff run as a I-AA HC?

(10-27-2015 10:23 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  Not saying let him go...but saying it won't be the end of the world if leaves.

I agree with you and I think we're an attractive option to many prospective coaches. The defense has been historically bad under withers and that's something I won't miss.

(10-27-2015 12:33 PM)PurpleStreamers Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 12:14 PM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 11:34 AM)Big Duke Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 10:08 AM)adogg6jmu Wrote:  After what I saw on Saturday, it may be a blessing if he leaves. I think the success of this team since last year is almost all Vad Lee. Withers was a DC for many D-I schools, including Urban Meyer. And what I saw on Saturday was the worst defense I have ever seen. Ever. And to make matters worse, nothing was done to keep the ball in Vad and the offense's hands and out of Richmond's hands(punting both times around midfield in the 2nd half...no onside kick with 4 min remaining). Rocco out-coached the hell out of Withers on Saturday. And Rocco stinks.

I know he is fighting personnel issues on defense, but it should not have been THAT bad.

Well oh my. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST ONE GAME THIS YEAR. Fire everyone, cut all scholarships and put the for sale sign out on BFS. This board is getting rediculious

Yea, because that's exactly what I said in my post. Calm down. It's like if someone criticizes EW, people get their panties in a bunch. By no means am I saying to fire Withers - that would be lunacy given his record over the past year and half and the strides that he's made in player discipline. All I am saying is that the jury is still out on whether our success has more to do with him, or that we have a special player in Vad Lee. From what I have seen, I am leaning toward that success being VL related.

What do we think our record would be if Birdsong was the QB for the past year and a half? How likely is it that EW is able to get quarterback talent like VL to come to JMU consistently? Can people seriously not be concerned with our defense and how they are playing in year 2 of EW?

With all due respect - wait a second, what am I saying. With no due respect, you're just wrong. I love Vad but this is an ENTIRELY different program with EW than MM and it's waaaay beyond the QB1. With the same players, MM would've used Vad, Cardon, Abdullah, and Cheatham with an occasional desperate fade route to Domo Taylor or maybe a jet sweep to Ravenel. EW's regime has consistently found ways to put ALL of it athletes (Davis, Miller, Tutt, Hyman, etc.) in space which is one of JMU's bigger advantages over other teams (depth of speed and athletic ability). And don't even bring up Birdsong. He knew he wasn't a fit in the system and left and is now picking up splinters on Marshall's bench. Small sample size of course, but I'd much rather have Schor this weekend than MB and that's not meant as a dig at the GingaNinja, it's just that quick decision-making and pace of play are huge in this offense and those never seemed to be his strong suits.

With all due respect...wait what am I saying...With no respect at all, you sure sound like a clown right about now. I guess I was wrong to call this defense terrible...guess I was wrong to say the jury was still out on EW. Like I said the other day, please continue to keep ignoring the stink that is coming from the defense(EW's specialty!!). How much credit does EW even get for this offense at all? EW has always been a defensive coach...a DC at many D-I stops. This is the worst defense I have ever seen. Vad was special enough to make everyone not notice it. Sure, we have some other nice offensive pieces, and Schor should fill in admirably, but he isn't special enough to mask the stench. PurpleStreamers, please come out to play!! Make some excuses for your precious EW!

Interesting article - some of these suggestions make sense, but his suggestion about who Tech should hire isn't going to happen:

http://herosports.com/collegefootball/fb...s-coaches/

Two weeks ago everyone loved Withers... now half the people here want him to leave.

Do you all remember getting skull dragged at home by Stony Brook? We are achieving under this coaching staff. We had COLLEGE GAMEDAY on campus. Never would that happen with the past 6-6/7-5 regime.

The program makes a concerted effort to engage fans now. Exponential increase in social media presence in addition to bolstered video/graphics. We need to keep pushing forward. The culture in place is a successful one.

(11-03-2015 08:59 AM)olderduke Wrote:  Interesting article - some of these suggestions make sense, but his suggestion about who Tech should hire isn't going to happen:

http://herosports.com/collegefootball/fb...s-coaches/

Other than the UCF one, it seems like the author just grabbed coaches from the same state/geographic region to place in the FBS jobs.