(10-26-2015 08:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  And its really a different issue, but less advanced students AND state budgets would be much better served with those people going to community colleges.

While Panama is better informed on this than I, Ga State and Ga. Perimeter (Community) Colleges are merging in such a way that if you finish the two year Associates program at GPC you can directly transfer to GSU to complete a Bachelors degree.

(10-24-2015 10:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  What D-1 athletic options do these schools have? The answer is essentially their current ones, a lower level or shutting them down.

I don't know what the big deal is, if there is one, that Big South or Atlantic Sun couldn't take them. I suspect you have some stubbornness at the top of these schools, an unwillingness to break tradition for a conference without the HBC legacy or a collection of academic peers.

Is there honestly any resistance to Norfolk in Big South?

I think we've gotten to the point in higher education where "HBC" hurts far more than it helps. It hinders enrollment, and I suspect it discourages and scares applicants away for any number of reasons, regardless of race. Drifting away from one of the HBC D1 conferences shows a willful step toward a progressive view of the future of the institution. And, if the money isn't there from the alumni and other donors, what are the consequences of upsetting those who feel the HBC label should never be detached from the school?

(10-26-2015 09:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(10-24-2015 10:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  What D-1 athletic options do these schools have? The answer is essentially their current ones, a lower level or shutting them down.

I don't know what the big deal is, if there is one, that Big South or Atlantic Sun couldn't take them. I suspect you have some stubbornness at the top of these schools, an unwillingness to break tradition for a conference without the HBC legacy or a collection of academic peers.

Is there honestly any resistance to Norfolk in Big South?

I think we've gotten to the point in higher education where "HBC" hurts far more than it helps. It hinders enrollment, and I suspect it discourages and scares applicants away for any number of reasons, regardless of race. Drifting away from one of the HBC D1 conferences shows a willful step toward a progressive view of the future of the institution. And, if the money isn't there from the alumni and other donors, what are the consequences of upsetting those who feel the HBC label should never be detached from the school?

Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

(10-26-2015 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

Where would the money issues be if Norfolk was in Big South? A drop-off in certain football game's gates with the loss of some of the more "major" MEAC members? Would MEAC schools decide to not schedule NSU if they left them?

How badly is TSU hurting compared to schools in MEAC and SWAC? TSU runs with some bigger programs, but they also sit in the center of the conference, and enjoy a status to which no other D1 HBC can speak.

(10-26-2015 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

Exactly, you just can't place an HBCU anywhere and hope they succeed. The only way it could work is with a very regional conference. If Prairie View or TSU played in the Southland, they would do alright from an attendance and competition standpoint.

(10-26-2015 01:50 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Where would the money issues be if Norfolk was in Big South? A drop-off in certain football game's gates with the loss of some of the more "major" MEAC members? Would MEAC schools decide to not schedule NSU if they left them?

How badly is TSU hurting compared to schools in MEAC and SWAC? TSU runs with some bigger programs, but they also sit in the center of the conference, and enjoy a status to which no other D1 HBC can speak.

I'd rather play with a group of my peers than a group that my fans don't know. Just like UH would rather play in the Big 12 or SEC than playing teams the fans, diehard UH or otherwise, have no connection with.

(10-26-2015 03:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

Exactly, you just can't place an HBCU anywhere and hope they succeed. The only way it could work is with a very regional conference. If Prairie View or TSU played in the Southland, they would do alright from an attendance and competition standpoint.

(10-26-2015 01:50 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Where would the money issues be if Norfolk was in Big South? A drop-off in certain football game's gates with the loss of some of the more "major" MEAC members? Would MEAC schools decide to not schedule NSU if they left them?

How badly is TSU hurting compared to schools in MEAC and SWAC? TSU runs with some bigger programs, but they also sit in the center of the conference, and enjoy a status to which no other D1 HBC can speak.

I'd rather play with a group of my peers than a group that my fans don't know. Just like UH would rather play in the Big 12 or SEC than playing teams the fans, diehard UH or otherwise, have no connection with.

TSU's attendance is gawd awful and PVs isnt much better.

Arkansas-Pine Bluff played for a short time period in the old Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference, playing all in-state schools and it was a bust. UAPB went 12-19, attendance was bad and pretty much everyone in the AIC claimed UAPB was cheating.

Turned out that they were... big time. The NAIA gave them the death penalty for a variety of violations including using players who weren't enrolled in school but used the names of enrolled students.
http://newsok.com/fast-recovery-boosts-u...49/?page=2

(10-26-2015 03:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Arkansas-Pine Bluff played for a short time period in the old Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference, playing all in-state schools and it was a bust. UAPB went 12-19, attendance was bad and pretty much everyone in the AIC claimed UAPB was cheating.

Turned out that they were... big time. The NAIA gave them the death penalty for a variety of violations including using players who weren't enrolled in school but used the names of enrolled students.
http://newsok.com/fast-recovery-boosts-u...49/?page=2

Texas Southern did the same thing a few years back in football, but not on that big a scale. More it was the band using people who had been out of school for several years.

(10-26-2015 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

What do you mean by "didn't really have a choice"?? Is TSU somehow "black-balled" from the SWAC and/or MEAC? Is there some sort of state-law that mandates they play in the OVC?

Just wondering if there's something about TSU that I didn't know about. I do think it's better for them in the long-run to be in the OVC as opposed to a HBCU conference.

(10-26-2015 07:07 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its like everything else, $$$$. Look at Tennessee St.'s attendance for their OVC games vs. their ooc against HBCU's. But Tennessee St. didn't really have a choice.

What do you mean by "didn't really have a choice"?? Is TSU somehow "black-balled" from the SWAC and/or MEAC? Is there some sort of state-law that mandates they play in the OVC?

Just wondering if there's something about TSU that I didn't know about. I do think it's better for them in the long-run to be in the OVC as opposed to a HBCU conference.

From what I understand, the SWAC has made multiple overtures to Tennessee State and have been rebuffed every time. The OVC has a better footprint for them, I believe, plus it's a better conference across the board. They're not going to join a weaker conference with longer trips just because they're comprised of black schools.

TN St merged with UT-Nashville, so it has more of an obligation to move itself from its segregated past.

(10-26-2015 03:17 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  TSU's attendance is gawd awful and PVs isnt much better.

Correct, however, for a minor conference, the Southland has excellent fan support. And in addition to having numerous schools within driving distance, no city has more SLC alumni than Houston.

(10-26-2015 09:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 03:17 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  TSU's attendance is gawd awful and PVs isnt much better.

Correct, however, for a minor conference, the Southland has excellent fan support. And in addition to having numerous schools within driving distance, no city has more SLC alumni than Houston.

TSU won't draw no matter the conference their in. They have little to no fan support for athletics. TSU has had multiple games this season at home where attendance didn't even reach 2,000. Last year's homecoming drew less than 5,000. They had homecoming this past Saturday and a vast majority of the fans where from Southern, not TSU.

(10-26-2015 08:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  TN St merged with UT-Nashville, so it has more of an obligation to move itself from its segregated past.

What segregated past are you talking about?

(10-26-2015 09:50 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 08:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  TN St merged with UT-Nashville, so it has more of an obligation to move itself from its segregated past.

What segregated past are you talking about?

When segregation was forced on TN St.

(10-26-2015 09:51 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 09:50 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  

(10-26-2015 08:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  TN St merged with UT-Nashville, so it has more of an obligation to move itself from its segregated past.

What segregated past are you talking about?

When segregation was forced on TN St.

How was segregation forced on TSU?

(10-26-2015 09:48 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  TSU won't draw no matter the conference their in. They have little to no fan support for athletics. TSU has had multiple games this season at home where attendance didn't even reach 2,000. Last year's homecoming drew less than 5,000. They had homecoming this past Saturday and a vast majority of the fans where from Southern, not TSU.

Which enhances my point. They'd be playing schools that can travel well. Lamar, Sam, SFA, HBU and Incarnate Word would be close by. And obviously, Prairie View energizes their fanbase, who they'd keep playing regardless. As their conference stands now, PV is the only school within a short drive although the SWAC has many alums in Houston TBF.

(10-26-2015 03:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Arkansas-Pine Bluff played for a short time period in the old Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference, playing all in-state schools and it was a bust. UAPB went 12-19, attendance was bad and pretty much everyone in the AIC claimed UAPB was cheating.

Turned out that they were... big time. The NAIA gave them the death penalty for a variety of violations including using players who weren't enrolled in school but used the names of enrolled students.
http://newsok.com/fast-recovery-boosts-u...49/?page=2

Former AIC members.
UAPB
Central Arkansas
UALR
Arkansas Tech
Arkansas State
Hendrix
Lyon
Ozarks in Clarksville
Ouachita Baptist
Harding
Henderson State
UAFS
John Brown
Arkansas-Monticello
Southern Arkansas

15 schools. 2 did not have football. Hendrix, UALR, Lyon (Arkansas College), Ozarks, all dropped football.
John Brown and UAFS did not have the sport.

TSU in Ohio Valley Conference is making more money than they would be in the MEAC and SWAC.
TSU is not the only HBCU playing in a non-HBCU conferences.
Langston, Texas College, Paul Quinn, Arkansas Baptist, Philander Smith in Little Rock, Shorter-Arkansas, Central State Ohio, Concordia-Alabama and some others do not play in HBCU conferences. A lot do not have football. Some are at the JUCO levels.

(10-27-2015 01:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  TSU in Ohio Valley Conference is making more money than they would be in the MEAC and SWAC.
TSU is not the only HBCU playing in a non-HBCU conferences.
Langston, Texas College, Paul Quinn, Arkansas Baptist, Philander Smith in Little Rock, Shorter-Arkansas, Central State Ohio, Concordia-Alabama and some others do not play in HBCU conferences. A lot do not have football. Some are at the JUCO levels.

TSU is the only D-1 HBCU playing in a non-HBCU conference. Central State plays in the SIAC which is an HBCU conference.

If I'm TSU I'm staying in the OVC for now. Now the alums don't like being in the OVC because it limits games against other HBCUs that are the largest attended games on the schedule yearly, and after those few games attendance goes way down. But I wouldn't leave and go to the SWAC with the current leadership and a move to the MEAC would be a strain on the travel budget. Now the MEAC was ranked #1 as far as revenue generating FCS conferences (the SWAC was 3rd) but its not worth it to move for TSU due to the money that would be lost on travel for the Olympic sports and other non revenue generating sports.