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QB trouble in paradise?
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JackieTreehorn Offline
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Post: #21
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 02:56 PM)mac6115cd Wrote:  It's too late in the season to have a QB controversy. Kiel earned the spot and should start the rest of the season, as long as he's healthy. CTT should not let this continue.

Not exactly sure how he earned it when most of what I read was that Moore routinely outperformed him in camp.
 
10-21-2015 04:36 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
Agree with most of the posts...Kiel earned the starting job, got injured, needed time to heal, observed from the press box/sideline for the mental/preparation standpoint and he should start against UConn. I agree that Moore has showed some frosh tendencies and teams have had film on him now to help prepare against him but...Gunner has had some struggles this year as well. I gonna keep on saying it...give the damn rock to the BEST running back on the team (not named Tion or Hosey) for a majority of carries and it's amazing how that will create better passing opportunities and take some pressure off the "pin your ears back" and rush the QB. Also, quit calling QB sneaks or QB runs unless it's fourth and inches!
 
10-21-2015 04:41 PM
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rtaylor Offline
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Post: #23
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 04:27 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 04:04 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 04:00 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 03:21 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 02:13 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  ???? 75% of the people who post here seem to want Tubbs fired. What pass are you talking about?

I clearly typed journalists, not anonymous internet message board posters.

So the question was asked (no pass given) and Tubbs declined to answer it? You think
Tim should have said, I want an answer? LOL, no more access to the coaching staff, players and practices. As Clifton Ave said we are lucky for the coverage we get, because we used to get next to nothing.
I do not blame Tim, as he needs access, I'm wondering about the Enquirer, WLW, etc. Seems they used to pounce on stuff like this to portray UC in a negative light, did not realize apathy had set in. Lucky for the coverage? If you want more maybe you call in, or email whoever covers the team.

Email or call them as to why the did not pounce on punting the ball, IDK.
You do not find it strange that the only people talking about CTT giving up by punting, and then not even using his time outs after punting, is fans on a message board? You would think journalists who cover the team would have some of the same questions we are asking, or maybe they do not even bother watching the games. I know down here in Tennessee, journalists are all over CBJ with specific questions on plays.
 
10-21-2015 05:06 PM
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True Bearcat Offline
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Post: #24
QB trouble in paradise?
I have a hunch Kiel will start against UCONN.
 
10-21-2015 05:41 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #25
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 05:06 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 04:27 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 04:04 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 04:00 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 03:21 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  I clearly typed journalists, not anonymous internet message board posters.

So the question was asked (no pass given) and Tubbs declined to answer it? You think
Tim should have said, I want an answer? LOL, no more access to the coaching staff, players and practices. As Clifton Ave said we are lucky for the coverage we get, because we used to get next to nothing.
I do not blame Tim, as he needs access, I'm wondering about the Enquirer, WLW, etc. Seems they used to pounce on stuff like this to portray UC in a negative light, did not realize apathy had set in. Lucky for the coverage? If you want more maybe you call in, or email whoever covers the team.

Email or call them as to why the did not pounce on punting the ball, IDK.
You do not find it strange that the only people talking about CTT giving up by punting, and then not even using his time outs after punting, is fans on a message board? You would think journalists who cover the team would have some of the same questions we are asking, or maybe they do not even bother watching the games. I know down here in Tennessee, journalists are all over CBJ with specific questions on plays.

Reds Bengals, Bengals Reds wash rinse repeat.
 
10-21-2015 06:54 PM
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vabearcat Offline
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Post: #26
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 01:53 PM)Marcus Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:50 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 12:58 PM)Marcus Wrote:  I'd go back with Kiel personally. I like Moore but I don't think he played that well against BYU. I thought he struggled with his pocket presence. Not that it is a big surprise considering he's just a freshman. You sort of expect that.

Yeah Moore held the ball so dam long on some of those sacks. Ball has to come out faster, or he can run. Kid is a good athlete.

Totally agree.

UC QB's are actually running it too much. It is why Kiel is now on the sidelines and part of the reason why Hayden Moore looked like a practice tackling dummy in the BYU game. We've got three good running backs and Shaq Washington, who can be a slot receiver/runner on power sweeps, reverses, etc. Look at the offense that Memphis runs. Paxton Lynch is not looking to run first. Memphis use deception and misdirection to diversify their running and passing attack.
 
10-21-2015 06:57 PM
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Bearcat85 Offline
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Post: #27
Re: RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 06:57 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:53 PM)Marcus Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:50 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 12:58 PM)Marcus Wrote:  I'd go back with Kiel personally. I like Moore but I don't think he played that well against BYU. I thought he struggled with his pocket presence. Not that it is a big surprise considering he's just a freshman. You sort of expect that.

Yeah Moore held the ball so dam long on some of those sacks. Ball has to come out faster, or he can run. Kid is a good athlete.

Totally agree.

UC QB's are actually running it too much. It is why Kiel is now on the sidelines and part of the reason why Hayden Moore looked like a practice tackling dummy in the BYU game. We've got three good running backs and Shaq Washington, who can be a slot receiver/runner on power sweeps, reverses, etc. Look at the offense that Memphis runs. Paxton Lynch is not looking to run first. Memphis use deception and misdirection to diversify their running and passing attack.

Moore was not a tackling dummy due to QB run plays. The pocket collapsed repeatedly on pass plays. 8 sacks.
 
10-21-2015 08:51 PM
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Bearhawkeye Offline
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Post: #28
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 02:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I thought Moore clearly got happy feet and didn't trust the play. He's a freshman. He has great talent and is going to be a big time Bearcat in two years, but I think Kiel is the better option. Wish we'd have gone to him early 2nd half last week as after the first couple drives I thought more just didn't look comfortable. I hope Kiel is back and glad to see he is very competitive about this.

I agree on all points. I typically dislike QB controversies but we are where we are and at least we are debating who is the better one rather than who is the less worse. I'd give Kiel the start but maybe plan on playing Hayden in one series each half. Give each of them time to watch the other and see what works and what doesn't - adjust as necessary.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2015 01:31 AM by Bearhawkeye.)
10-21-2015 09:42 PM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #29
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
How quickly the honeymoon with Hayden Moore ended. Guess we can attribute that to what is quickly becoming known as the Cardale Effect

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10-21-2015 11:04 PM
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dave108 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 11:04 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  How quickly the honeymoon with Hayden Moore ended. Guess we can attribute that to what is quickly becoming known as the Cardale Effect

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

tubs, and most everyone else, was on the QBs about interceptions. Moore really cut that issue down in the last two games. BUT, the flipside is that I think he did hold the ball too long on occasion - I think it was kinda drilled into him to avoid INTS - My point is, esp. with a very young QB, that you can't have everything. Early in the game, the sacks by BYU didn't result in big yardage losses. Again, I think that, if it wasn't there, he was told to just eat the ball and not turn it over. And, early on, a lot of the sacks didn't kill drives. UC was able to hit a pass play to keep the ball moving.
 
10-22-2015 05:03 AM
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JPBearcat3 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
This has seemed rather scripted to me the whole time. This isn't the first year Tubs has played coy as to who's starting at QB each game.

Moore had to start due to injury - and I don't think the coaches felt comfortable putting Kiel out there against BYU so soon after being cleared.

Now that he's had a full week of practice, etc. - Kiel will start on Saturday. I really don't think there's any question to it, honestly, and Tubs knows that.

Sure, both QBs are similar in their styles, so it's not a huge advantage in being coy. But Tubs isn't going to show any cards he doesn't have to.
 
10-22-2015 07:00 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #32
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
Hate to think about Kiel with his injury playing against BYU and taking those sacks. I think Kiel is a great athlete and a warrior but Moore seems to be more durable at this point.

Still, I have to agree with the point made earlier. In watching the Memphis/Ole Miss game (second half only) I hardly saw the Memphis QB being touched by a stout SEC defense. The loss of a QB to injury @ UC almost every season the past few years hasn't helped the cause.
 
10-22-2015 07:22 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #33
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-22-2015 07:22 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Hate to think about Kiel with his injury playing against BYU and taking those sacks. I think Kiel is a great athlete and a warrior but Moore seems to be more durable at this point.

Still, I have to agree with the point made earlier. In watching the Memphis/Ole Miss game (second half only) I hardly saw the Memphis QB being touched by a stout SEC defense. The loss of a QB to injury @ UC almost every season the past few years hasn't helped the cause.

We'll see what the coaches decide this week. Like you I think the coaches were concerned about Gunner in that environment last week against that defense. That defensive end at BYU will be playing on Sundays somewhere next year.

As to Memphis, Paxton Lynch reminds me a lot of our own Tony Pike. Tall gangly fellow who is always running outside the pocket to extend plays by dumping the ball off or running down the sideline. If and when he gets hit, it is usually by a cornerback who pushes him out of bounds. Our QB's, not necessarily due to any fault of their own, run it right up the gut to be greeted head on by a linebacker. Huge difference in the type of shots taken there.
 
10-22-2015 08:07 AM
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Racinejake Offline
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Post: #34
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 08:51 PM)Bearcat85 Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 06:57 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:53 PM)Marcus Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:50 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 12:58 PM)Marcus Wrote:  I'd go back with Kiel personally. I like Moore but I don't think he played that well against BYU. I thought he struggled with his pocket presence. Not that it is a big surprise considering he's just a freshman. You sort of expect that.

Yeah Moore held the ball so dam long on some of those sacks. Ball has to come out faster, or he can run. Kid is a good athlete.

Totally agree.

UC QB's are actually running it too much. It is why Kiel is now on the sidelines and part of the reason why Hayden Moore looked like a practice tackling dummy in the BYU game. We've got three good running backs and Shaq Washington, who can be a slot receiver/runner on power sweeps, reverses, etc. Look at the offense that Memphis runs. Paxton Lynch is not looking to run first. Memphis use deception and misdirection to diversify their running and passing attack.

Moore was not a tackling dummy due to QB run plays. The pocket collapsed repeatedly on pass plays. 8 sacks.

And Moore had 20 carries in the game. Some of those may have been scrambles but there are a lot of designed QB run plays being called. Too many given Moore and Kiel's actual ability to run the football. We run QB draws usually once every time we get into the red zone. Those are typically wasted downs. In the Memphis game, Kiel had 4 rushes in the first quarter. Moore had 7 carries (may have been a sack in there). Those are just too many carries for guys who really aren't that effective running the football to begin with.
 
10-22-2015 08:18 AM
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bearcatfan Offline
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Post: #35
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
I cannot understand why UC cannot come up with more running plays for their running backs. It seems like they run the same play about 75% of the time. If the line does its job then it is ok, but if not they are lucky to get a yard or two.

Why not try lining up with the QB under center and 2 backs once in a while? Use Green or Williams as a fullback or a blocking back for Boone?
 
10-22-2015 08:23 AM
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Post: #36
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-22-2015 08:23 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  I cannot understand why UC cannot come up with more running plays for their running backs. It seems like they run the same play about 75% of the time. If the line does its job then it is ok, but if not they are lucky to get a yard or two.

Why not try lining up with the QB under center and 2 backs once in a while? Use Green or Williams as a fullback or a blocking back for Boone?

I like the idea for short yardage situations. They do use Tyler Cogswell sometimes in the back field but more as an H-Back.
 
10-22-2015 09:13 AM
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FLIP Offline
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Post: #37
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-22-2015 08:23 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  I cannot understand why UC cannot come up with more running plays for their running backs. It seems like they run the same play about 75% of the time. If the line does its job then it is ok, but if not they are lucky to get a yard or two.

Why not try lining up with the QB under center and 2 backs once in a while? Use Green or Williams as a fullback or a blocking back for Boone?

One of the things I have noticed is that the Oline does not block the second level of the defense very often, nor do they pull linemen on running plays. I believe this is by design due to the stance the line takes - they are always in a pass protection stance. By using this stance they are able to change the play without penalty, and they "catch" instead of "drive" the defensive line, hence any kind of running play that requires a sustained block isn't feasible when you are moving backwards. Playing in a pass protecting stance also keeps the 2nd/3rd level of the defense thinking pass, so UC is relying on the skill of the RB to make the LB's or DB's miss once they break the line. So most of the running plays will always be quick hitting between tackles types of plays, and if it is stopped by either the defensive line or a filling LB, they will be short yardage gains - if they do break the line, the opportunity for a 5-10yd gain or longer is possible.

By going to a two back with say Green as a blocker and Boone the runner - again, the stance of the Oline will give away the play, as they would most likely have a hand-down stance to drive into the defensive line (instead of the normal stance being the pass protection stance) and lose the shotgun snap by going under center signaling a high probability of a run play. Without a true fullback on the roster, I can't see UC using anything other than a TE at H-back being a run blocker, and always staying in the gun to keep the 2nd/3rd level of the defense thinking pass.

Back when Pead/Winn played, the Oline stance was always a hand-down stance, and those teams ran the ball better and had more variety of running plays while the play action pass was used more often.
 
10-22-2015 12:06 PM
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Bearcat Otto Offline
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Post: #38
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
Just because they are in a stance with their hands off the ground doesn't mean they cannot fire out to block. They should be able to pull a Guard or Tackle as well. If anything a player should be able to pull quick in an upright stance as his first move is not to take his hand off the ground and raise his torso from the waist.
 
10-22-2015 01:01 PM
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Post: #39
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
(10-21-2015 08:51 PM)Bearcat85 Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 06:57 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:53 PM)Marcus Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 01:50 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(10-21-2015 12:58 PM)Marcus Wrote:  I'd go back with Kiel personally. I like Moore but I don't think he played that well against BYU. I thought he struggled with his pocket presence. Not that it is a big surprise considering he's just a freshman. You sort of expect that.

Yeah Moore held the ball so dam long on some of those sacks. Ball has to come out faster, or he can run. Kid is a good athlete.

Totally agree.

UC QB's are actually running it too much. It is why Kiel is now on the sidelines and part of the reason why Hayden Moore looked like a practice tackling dummy in the BYU game. We've got three good running backs and Shaq Washington, who can be a slot receiver/runner on power sweeps, reverses, etc. Look at the offense that Memphis runs. Paxton Lynch is not looking to run first. Memphis use deception and misdirection to diversify their running and passing attack.

Moore was not a tackling dummy due to QB run plays. The pocket collapsed repeatedly on pass plays. 8 sacks.

It collapsed eventually, but at least some of those sacks came well after the ball should have been long gone.
 
10-22-2015 01:34 PM
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Post: #40
RE: QB trouble in paradise?
Kiel would not have finished the BYU game. He had just come off the injury.

As for Moore, he is very aggressive with his reads and confident in the pocket. He looks deep first, second, and third, and will only check down as a last resort. That's ballsy. I love it. The problem is, he does that even against a blitz. You can't get away with that. When facing the blitz you need to find the hot route right away and get rid of the ball. As a freshman, he still needs to learn that. He'll get there. But I'd rather have him make that mistake than be the opposite: the Jason Campbell-like QB who looks to check down 0.01 seconds after he drops back.

As for the issue, I'd start Kiel. He should be healthy now and hopefully we can keep him upright against the lesser competition.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2015 02:44 PM by Dannyboy.)
10-22-2015 02:44 PM
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