(10-09-2015 11:00 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm curious if the Ivy League won't cross that distinctive subsidization line and do what the others are doing with respect to athletic scholarships. It gives the schools some added control of the talent coming in that would commit them to the sport that brought them funding. As is, with the academic index in place, most of those people coming into the school are just like, or are close to being like every other student there.

It makes sense that the Ivy and Patriot Leagues wouldn't go the route of offering athletic scholarships as they stand, if the students are virtually the same regardless whether they play a sport or not. But, then Patriot did, even with the index. I have to wonder if the Ivy will reconsider that matter.

Both of those conferences get that "we're in, now we no longer want to play sports" thing. And it's not just those folks. I dated someone who flaked out on swimming for a school who gave her a good amount to do that for them. This isn't supposed to be a business, but it kind of has to run like one when you make these "risky investments."

I'll be shocked if the Ivies ever do what you are contemplating. This is a conference that refuses to have a post-season basketball tournament or let their football teams participate in the playoffs lest The Game be overshadowed. I can't imagine what would prompt them to abandon their most cherished piece of branding and sense of identity where sports are concerned. You're right that a non-trivial number of recruited athletes bail on their sport once admitted, but I don't think any of the Ivies view that as cause for concern. The opposite may well be their actual opinion.

As for recruited athletes being close to other students academically at Ivies (or Patriots or SLACs for that matter), "Reclaiming the Game" by former Princeton president Bill Bowen is an interesting read. He reviewed a ton of data regarding athletes at the aforementioned group of schools and found that recruited athletes were as much as 4x more likely to be admitted as non-athletes with similar credentials and that athletes were much more likely than any other group of students to graduate in the bottom third of their class.

The AI went into effect my sophomore year at Penn. My experience and that of my friends at other Ivies and SLACs was that being an athlete made a huge difference in admissions and that all sorts of academic accommodations were made for athletes to keep them eligible once on campus. I will acknowledge that even among the general student population it's fairly difficult to flunk out of an Ivy. They really do not want their graduation rates to take a hit.

(10-09-2015 11:56 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  I'll be shocked if the Ivies ever do what you are contemplating. This is a conference that refuses to have a post-season basketball tournament or let their football teams participate in the playoffs lest The Game be overshadowed. I can't imagine what would prompt them to abandon their most cherished piece of branding and sense of identity where sports are concerned.

I would agree with that had the conference not applied for that waiver in 2010. Even if their intention was to find their way onto select FBS programs' schedules, what was to be gained from it?

(10-09-2015 11:56 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  

(10-09-2015 11:00 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm curious if the Ivy League won't cross that distinctive subsidization line and do what the others are doing with respect to athletic scholarships. It gives the schools some added control of the talent coming in that would commit them to the sport that brought them funding. As is, with the academic index in place, most of those people coming into the school are just like, or are close to being like every other student there.

It makes sense that the Ivy and Patriot Leagues wouldn't go the route of offering athletic scholarships as they stand, if the students are virtually the same regardless whether they play a sport or not. But, then Patriot did, even with the index. I have to wonder if the Ivy will reconsider that matter.

Both of those conferences get that "we're in, now we no longer want to play sports" thing. And it's not just those folks. I dated someone who flaked out on swimming for a school who gave her a good amount to do that for them. This isn't supposed to be a business, but it kind of has to run like one when you make these "risky investments."

I'll be shocked if the Ivies ever do what you are contemplating. This is a conference that refuses to have a post-season basketball tournament or let their football teams participate in the playoffs lest The Game be overshadowed. I can't imagine what would prompt them to abandon their most cherished piece of branding and sense of identity where sports are concerned. You're right that a non-trivial number of recruited athletes bail on their sport once admitted, but I don't think any of the Ivies view that as cause for concern. The opposite may well be their actual opinion.

As for recruited athletes being close to other students academically at Ivies (or Patriots or SLACs for that matter), "Reclaiming the Game" by former Princeton president Bill Bowen is an interesting read. He reviewed a ton of data regarding athletes at the aforementioned group of schools and found that recruited athletes were as much as 4x more likely to be admitted as non-athletes with similar credentials and that athletes were much more likely than any other group of students to graduate in the bottom third of their class.

The AI went into effect my sophomore year at Penn. My experience and that of my friends at other Ivies and SLACs was that being an athlete made a huge difference in admissions and that all sorts of academic accommodations were made for athletes to keep them eligible once on campus. I will acknowledge that even among the general student population it's fairly difficult to flunk out of an Ivy. They really do not want their graduation rates to take a hit.

Plus, at least in Harvard's case (but probably true at some other Ivy), the athletes are getting full need-based rides anyway.

In some ways, it's better than athletic scholarships.

(10-09-2015 01:32 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I would agree with that had the conference not applied for that waiver in 2010. Even if their intention was to find their way onto select FBS programs' schedules, what was to be gained from it?

That whole episode including Yale's AD talking about adding a game to the schedule was weird and beyond my knowledge to offer an intelligent explanation. That said, five years later the Ivies are still not playing FBS schools, still not participating in the playoffs and still have an 11 game schedule. Penn is even walking away from the Villanova series. Glad the Quakers finally won a game before the series ended.

Given the enormous resistance to change in the league, and the incredibly sensitive nature of football in the Ivy psyche in particular, I have a very hard time seeing anything changing with regard to scholarships. This topic has been bandied about on the Penn basketball message board over the years. The consensus has always been, "not happening". So far the "not happening" perspective has a spotless record of accuracy on this issue.

(10-09-2015 02:44 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Given the enormous resistance to change in the league, and the incredibly sensitive nature of football in the Ivy psyche in particular, I have a very hard time seeing anything changing with regard to scholarships. This topic has been bandied about on the Penn basketball message board over the years. The consensus has always been, "not happening". So far the "not happening" perspective has a spotless record of accuracy on this issue.

Do you think there's a "split the difference" thing that's possible, that wouldn't necessarily be a compromise for the Ivy League, were FCOA awards called just that and not "scholarships?" The way those could wind up, where schools oversee them, guarantee them for the four years, differ from other kinds of scholarships, and address matters specific to only a few sports, while granting more aid than just tuition...is what D1 doing with regard to football and basketball scholarships enough of a shift to reclassify them as something else? Something different enough that the Ivy League might not take offense?

If the only hang-up becomes "scholarship," does the rest of the award-giving body move the needle close enough to what the Ivy League does that the NCAA can't say "no, that's not the same?" That FCOA awards aren't scholarships, so the label doesn't strike the same sour notes they did when they were called such?

To hear it spun back in 2010, the waiver issue generated some excitement within Patriot as a tell that they were on their way toward football scholarships, and that Ivy's request was their way to get onto the countable list and schedule FBS teams as Patriot would eventually do. A "if Colgate can do it, so should Yale" sort of gesture. Those Patriot fans weren't wrong about what their conference would do, although Yale-Army has been the only anomaly to date for IL (and had it been any other school than a SA, that game was toast...Yale may have been lucky Army honored the game, possibly because their AD wishes they were in IL themselves). There may not be any "winds of change" that blow through the Ivy campuses, but enough has changed around them where I wonder if it isn't reassessed. Has the work been done for them?