I'm in a great school and community. We do get our malcontents that do move in from time to time. They eventually get with the program. I've often contemplated though what would happen to the system if we had too many malcontents. Now we are graded by how well a malcontent does. I just see some situations getting over burdened and people knowing that the situation is bunk from the start. That's how you get these cheating scandals. Do you think the Atlanta 11 was a one time thing. I think we all would be shocked if we ever could pull the curtain back on it all. It's going to take a guy like Trump to say what really needs to be said. Your suburban and rural schools are doing fine. The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

(10-07-2015 05:54 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(10-06-2015 12:09 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What do you contribute this to? Public schools have too many unmotivated kids that drag down the system as a whole? Private schools and charters can just kick out the trouble makers? In my opinion you would have the exact same levels of success in public schools as that in privates is you could kick out the 10-20 percent that don't want to be there. Attitudes would change if they knew they could get the boot.

I actually agree with you Mach and I have reason. Our city school system installed an alternative academy at our Middle school to address these kids who just simply will or can not be taught in the conventional setting. It has been an overwhelming success. Not only have most of these kids done ok in HS...the test scores are up for both the middle and High schools. Many of the teachers are claiming that removing these kids has greatly helped them in their jobs. One of these kids actually was in the top 5 of last years HS graduating class. I have wondered for a long time what happened to reform schools. This is not to that level..but..at least it is addressing the problems surrounding students with learning or behavioral problems.

A distant relative of mine is in charge of the problem student carve out at a wealthy suburban school system. They do segregate the chronic trouble makers and try to give them life skills. As you might guess, it is controversial and has to justify its existence annually.

(10-07-2015 07:26 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

(10-07-2015 07:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:26 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

Good point and it has policy implications. If you want to revitalize an ailing city, provide more charter schools to attract families. Then they won't have to move to the suburbs.

(10-06-2015 11:24 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  Probably not but they can help students.

In 2010, Mark Zuckerberg donated $100,000 to the Newark (NJ) public schools, which has produced little success.
Link 1

In 1993, Walter Annenberg led a $1.1 billion effort to improve public education.

Quote:A lack of critical perspective and an unwillingness to take on the educational establishment’s sacred cows, however, ultimately prevented the huge effort from yielding any measurable progress.

Link 2

On the other hand,

Quote:In 1998, John Walton and Ted Forstmann each gave $50 million to fund scholarships for low-income children to attend private schools. More than 140,000 students have attended schools with graduation and college matriculation rates that exceed 90% instead of going to the failing schools in their neighborhoods.

Link 3

Is it any wonder that recent gifts by hedge fund managers John Paulson and Steve Schwarzman, have gone to charter schools and scholarship funds for inner city kids to attend parochial schools. If you want your money to do some good, donate where it works.

Op Ed (WSJ pay site)

The only thing that could help Newark Public Schools is a massive migration of its population out of the city. This city led the way during the Industrial Revolution by the Germans, Italians, Irish, and Dutch immigrants. Once the new wave of citizens entered this city, so did the pride, clean streets, families. Now it's dirty, hopeless, fatherless homes, section 8 housing, drugs everywhere!

(10-07-2015 07:53 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:26 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

Good point and it has policy implications. If you want to revitalize an ailing city, provide more charter schools to attract families. Then they won't have to move to the suburbs.

Gentrification does the exact same thing for the urban public school. But what it doesn't resolve are those now displaced kids and their parents who remain apathetic about education. Alternative schools are an important step that need to have the controversy removed from them if people are serious about solving what ails education.

(10-07-2015 09:04 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:53 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:26 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

Good point and it has policy implications. If you want to revitalize an ailing city, provide more charter schools to attract families. Then they won't have to move to the suburbs.

Gentrification does the exact same thing for the urban public school. But what it doesn't resolve are those now displaced kids and their parents who remain apathetic about education. Alternative schools are an important step that need to have the controversy removed from them if people are serious about solving what ails education.

This.

I'll bet people would be amazed at how much better a school could function if the "rotten apples" are removed from the barrel. Remove the malcontents/troublemakers/don't care/refuse to try kids to another setting and those remaining will do much better.

I understand the premise that getting a kid to, at minimum, high school graduation vastly increases the chances of that person getting a job and not being a money drain on the rest of us. With that said - it's really not something we can force if the kid/parents are unwilling participants. At some point, we may have to as a society cut our losses and leave some kids behind. The odds are pretty good that they will wind up in a prison setting anyway.

That is just the way it is. Right now, we are allowing those same unwilling kids to ruin the whole system for all. That may sound harsh, but sometimes life is harsh.

Did you guys read about the math teacher who was killed in the bathroom with a box cutter? Whatever made that kid fester into that? The roots of it are sewn in this no child left behind mantra. When the kids feel they are bigger than the system you have problems. The answers are out there.

(10-07-2015 09:20 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 09:04 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:53 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:26 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The city public schools are in crisis. The middle class and upper classes have abandoned them for privates and charters. You're left with a public gladiator system where Darwin's survival of the fittest could be studied in detail at probably all levels. People find a way to survive, Principals, Teachers, and Students.

The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

Good point and it has policy implications. If you want to revitalize an ailing city, provide more charter schools to attract families. Then they won't have to move to the suburbs.

Gentrification does the exact same thing for the urban public school. But what it doesn't resolve are those now displaced kids and their parents who remain apathetic about education. Alternative schools are an important step that need to have the controversy removed from them if people are serious about solving what ails education.

This.

I'll bet people would be amazed at how much better a school could function if the "rotten apples" are removed from the barrel. Remove the malcontents/troublemakers/don't care/refuse to try kids to another setting and those remaining will do much better.

I understand the premise that getting a kid to, at minimum, high school graduation vastly increases the chances of that person getting a job and not being a money drain on the rest of us. With that said - it's really not something we can force if the kid/parents are unwilling participants. At some point, we may have to as a society cut our losses and leave some kids behind. The odds are pretty good that they will wind up in a prison setting anyway.

That is just the way it is. Right now, we are allowing those same unwilling kids to ruin the whole system for all. That may sound harsh, but sometimes life is harsh.

What they did in our school system was to identify these kids earlier and try to turn them around. It requires a few teachers that the kids respect and some tough love. It has been pretty successful. The graduation rate of this group rose to about 70%. They are tracked into programs in which they can learn job skills and our local CC has helped train them vocationally. I recently hired one of these kids. He is rough around the edges but good worker generally. As someone that has hired lots of kids right out of HS, I am happy to see some movement back toward vocation training. Hell...I had many years where I could not find new worker that could read a tape measure.

(10-07-2015 11:57 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 09:20 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 09:04 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:53 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 07:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  The city schools were in crisis before the middle class and upper classes abandoned them for privates and charters. Ultimately if not charters they would just move out to a suburb with a good district.

Either way the gutter fire that is urban school districts were going to be abandoned by people who care enough about their kids to pay attention. I don't blame teachers I blame politicians and administrators.

Good point and it has policy implications. If you want to revitalize an ailing city, provide more charter schools to attract families. Then they won't have to move to the suburbs.

Gentrification does the exact same thing for the urban public school. But what it doesn't resolve are those now displaced kids and their parents who remain apathetic about education. Alternative schools are an important step that need to have the controversy removed from them if people are serious about solving what ails education.

This.

I'll bet people would be amazed at how much better a school could function if the "rotten apples" are removed from the barrel. Remove the malcontents/troublemakers/don't care/refuse to try kids to another setting and those remaining will do much better.

I understand the premise that getting a kid to, at minimum, high school graduation vastly increases the chances of that person getting a job and not being a money drain on the rest of us. With that said - it's really not something we can force if the kid/parents are unwilling participants. At some point, we may have to as a society cut our losses and leave some kids behind. The odds are pretty good that they will wind up in a prison setting anyway.

That is just the way it is. Right now, we are allowing those same unwilling kids to ruin the whole system for all. That may sound harsh, but sometimes life is harsh.

What they did in our school system was to identify these kids earlier and try to turn them around. It requires a few teachers that the kids respect and some tough love. It has been pretty successful. The graduation rate of this group rose to about 70%. They are tracked into programs in which they can learn job skills and our local CC has helped train them vocationally. I recently hired one of these kids. He is rough around the edges but good worker generally. As someone that has hired lots of kids right out of HS, I am happy to see some movement back toward vocation training. Hell...I had many years where I could not find new worker that could read a tape measure.

My county school system has paid with a local manufacturer to create an early job program where kids who normally would drop out work in the factory while studying towards their HS diploma.

(10-06-2015 09:08 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What do you think it is Max? I bet it's middle management.

I'd say 70% of the total. Just a guess.

I plan on getting the book to see her numbers on this particular case.

What I love about this was the dbag Zuckerberg was so damn naive about handing over 100 million.

(10-07-2015 12:46 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(10-06-2015 09:08 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What do you think it is Max? I bet it's middle management.

I'd say 70% of the total. Just a guess.

I plan on getting the book to see her numbers on this particular case.

What I love about this was the dbag Zuckerberg was so damn naive about handing over 100 million.

He wasn't naive. He's well aware that his donation will be nickeled and dimed away before reaching the kids. But he's now immune to accusations that he hasn't done enough to try an help education.

(10-07-2015 01:59 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-07-2015 12:46 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(10-06-2015 09:08 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What do you think it is Max? I bet it's middle management.

I'd say 70% of the total. Just a guess.

I plan on getting the book to see her numbers on this particular case.

What I love about this was the dbag Zuckerberg was so damn naive about handing over 100 million.

He wasn't naive. He's well aware that his donation will be nickeled and dimed away before reaching the kids. But he's now immune to accusations that he hasn't done enough to try an help education.

Not according to the ladies findings. He still spends money on education but it's all local where he can control what it goes to.

Where money has failed in lower education, it has been enormously successful in higher education.

(10-07-2015 07:48 PM)Claw Wrote:  Where money has failed in lower education, it has been enormously successful in higher education.

In what way? Inflating tuition rates and building drives at universities?

The biggest difference between public and private school in my opinion, and the reason why it's comparing apples and oranges, is because Private schools are not required to accept every student like public schools. It's easy to have great schools, great test scores, and great students when you can simply refuse the problem kids.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/comm/choice/r...ivschl.pdf

(10-08-2015 10:03 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The biggest difference between public and private school in my opinion, and the reason why it's comparing apples and oranges, is because Private schools are not required to accept every student like public schools. It's easy to have great schools, great test scores, and great students when you can simply refuse the problem kids.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/comm/choice/r...ivschl.pdf

That's a big part of it I agree; however, an even larger part of it is having parents th that care. I'd imagine those parents are more prevalent, as a whole, with private schools. I mean, those schools aren't cheap!

(10-08-2015 10:11 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 10:03 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The biggest difference between public and private school in my opinion, and the reason why it's comparing apples and oranges, is because Private schools are not required to accept every student like public schools. It's easy to have great schools, great test scores, and great students when you can simply refuse the problem kids.

https://www2.ed.gov/admins/comm/choice/r...ivschl.pdf

That's a big part of it I agree; however, an even larger part of it is having parents th that care. I'd imagine those parents are more prevalent, as a whole, with private schools. I mean, those schools aren't cheap!

And those parents are more likely to have the availability to get involved. Public schools have many students with single parents, or both parents working, and cannot afford to get our of work to get involved.