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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-05-2015 11:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 04:13 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:38 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 08:30 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Having said that, I think this was a pretty dumb move for him if he's wanting to get into coaching.

Very good point - I hadn't thought of that angle before yet. Certainly he has no chance now of coaching in Austin, and his chances of coaching at Rice have gone way down too . . .

Being in favor of this particular ordinance is a prerequisite for working at Rice?

I know you didn't mean that literally, but yes, very publicly taking a controversial position (especially one seen as very much on the wrong side of history*) is not a great plan if you are interested in a public job, where you kind of need to appeal across the spectrum. If this is Lance's only foray into politics, I think he's fine. If he decides to become "Lance Berkman, former MLB player and anti-gay rights campaigner" that will close some avenues to him...

He is not an anti-gay rights campaigner. I listened to the message, and it does NOT condemn or disparage any class of people. It does point out a possible effect of a particular ordinance and urge its rejection on that basis. People may disagree that the stated effect will occur; they may agree that it will occur but disagree that the effect is harmful; or they may agree that the effect will occur and is harmful but believe that the risk is worth taking for other reasons. And people may further believe that on each of these points, the position opposing their own is foolish. But it doesn't seem that any of those positions are so beyond the pale as to be execrable.

If holding a foolish position on public policy were a bar to university employment, Rice would have to replace probably half of its faculty and administration, and the Ivy League would cease to exist.

Of course, there is no doubt that it may be tactically unwise to take positions that may prove to be unpopular. We would all like to think that society in general and academia in particular can maturely tolerate political differences, but unfortunately we know that's not the case.
10-05-2015 12:11 PM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-05-2015 12:11 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-05-2015 11:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 04:13 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:38 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 08:30 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Having said that, I think this was a pretty dumb move for him if he's wanting to get into coaching.

Very good point - I hadn't thought of that angle before yet. Certainly he has no chance now of coaching in Austin, and his chances of coaching at Rice have gone way down too . . .

Being in favor of this particular ordinance is a prerequisite for working at Rice?

I know you didn't mean that literally, but yes, very publicly taking a controversial position (especially one seen as very much on the wrong side of history*) is not a great plan if you are interested in a public job, where you kind of need to appeal across the spectrum. If this is Lance's only foray into politics, I think he's fine. If he decides to become "Lance Berkman, former MLB player and anti-gay rights campaigner" that will close some avenues to him...

He is not an anti-gay rights campaigner. I listened to the message, and it does NOT condemn or disparage any class of people. It does point out a possible effect of a particular ordinance and urge its rejection on that basis. People may disagree that the stated effect will occur; they may agree that it will occur but disagree that the effect is harmful; or they may agree that the effect will occur and is harmful but believe that the risk is worth taking for other reasons. And people may further believe that on each of these points, the position opposing their own is foolish. But it doesn't seem that any of those positions are so beyond the pale as to be execrable.

If holding a foolish position on public policy were a bar to university employment, Rice would have to replace probably half of its faculty and administration, and the Ivy League would cease to exist.

Of course, there is no doubt that it may be tactically unwise to take positions that may prove to be unpopular. We would all like to think that society in general and academia in particular can maturely tolerate political differences, but unfortunately we know that's not the case.

It was a hypothetical to make my point - *if* he became an anti-gay rights campaigner, that would cut off many avenues. I have no idea what his positions are on politics generally (though this ad would give some indication), and as I said, if this is a one-off, I don't think it will be a big deal...
10-05-2015 12:46 PM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
Let's see. Lance Berkman's app for a coaching job: All-American at Rice University. Multiple All Star game appearances in the major leagues. Considered a leader in many team clubhouses. Hero of World Series. Learned under Wayne Graham, Tony LaRussa, Joe Gerardi and many others. But he can't be hired because he took a position on the HERO ordinance which was politically incorrect. Amazing.
10-08-2015 09:38 PM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-08-2015 09:38 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Let's see. Lance Berkman's app for a coaching job: All-American at Rice University. Multiple All Star game appearances in the major leagues. Considered a leader in many team clubhouses. Hero of World Series. Learned under Wayne Graham, Tony LaRussa, Joe Gerardi and many others. But he can't be hired because he took a position on the HERO ordinance which was politically incorrect. Amazing.

No one said that. But head coach is one of those jobs which is not really very compatible with public political activism. What I said was if he hypothetically went down a path that led to him being known as Lance Berkman, anti-gay activist and former MLB All-star, that *will* be an issue for potential employers, at least if he's wanting to be a coach. That would put him at odds with Rice's own policies. (For all I know he has a pretty middle of the road position and just has specific objections to the HERO ordinance.)

It's not just this issue - though this one is probably more problematic than some others for multiple reasons.

Anyway, the biggest knock on him becoming a head coach somewhere right now is probably, you know, lack of coaching experience....
10-09-2015 08:43 AM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-09-2015 08:43 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:38 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Let's see. Lance Berkman's app for a coaching job: All-American at Rice University. Multiple All Star game appearances in the major leagues. Considered a leader in many team clubhouses. Hero of World Series. Learned under Wayne Graham, Tony LaRussa, Joe Gerardi and many others. But he can't be hired because he took a position on the HERO ordinance which was politically incorrect. Amazing.

No one said that. But head coach is one of those jobs which is not really very compatible with public political activism. What I said was if he hypothetically went down a path that led to him being known as Lance Berkman, anti-gay activist and former MLB All-star, that *will* be an issue for potential employers, at least if he's wanting to be a coach. That would put him at odds with Rice's own policies. (For all I know he has a pretty middle of the road position and just has specific objections to the HERO ordinance.)

It's not just this issue - though this one is probably more problematic than some others for multiple reasons.

Anyway, the biggest knock on him becoming a head coach somewhere right now is probably, you know, lack of coaching experience....

Well, if he became an Anita Bryant, I would agree with you. But this one issue should not keep him from coaching, if that is what he wants to do. As far as lack of experience, several MLB teams have hired managers who are first timers. Mike Matheny for instance.

If I lived in Houston, I would vote for the HERO ordinance. But I respect those on the other side. And I suspect that the way the Mayor and City Council handled the referendum issue has helped that side. But we need to stop demonizing those who we don't agree with.
10-09-2015 01:11 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-09-2015 01:11 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  But we need to stop demonizing those who we don't agree with.

I think that applies in a very generic sense to pretty much all people on all sides of all issues these days. Gone are the days when Ike could have a drink with LBJ and Rayburn, or Kennedy and Goldwater could disagree on the issues but remain good friends. I really thought Clinton and Newt were in a great position to reprise that and run the country, but that didn't work out, and I think we are all worse off because of it.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2015 06:29 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-09-2015 06:28 PM
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owlman70 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-03-2015 01:07 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 12:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The ad, as I have been told (I haven't seen it myself) depicts a man...clearly a man following a woman into the bathroom.

Not to mention that a man with evil intentions CAN ALREADY follow a woman into a bathroom.

HERO is an opportunity for Houston to legally protect people who have to deal with enough **** already. These ads are fearmongering at best.

Lance should stick to commentary on sports rather than oppose equal rights based on a fear of men in the ladies' room.

Haven't heard this concern justified by many instances of such behavior.

Nothing like a red herring to bring out the fearmongers.
10-10-2015 03:04 PM
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Barney Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-05-2015 12:11 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-05-2015 11:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 04:13 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:38 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 08:30 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Having said that, I think this was a pretty dumb move for him if he's wanting to get into coaching.

Very good point - I hadn't thought of that angle before yet. Certainly he has no chance now of coaching in Austin, and his chances of coaching at Rice have gone way down too . . .

Being in favor of this particular ordinance is a prerequisite for working at Rice?

I know you didn't mean that literally, but yes, very publicly taking a controversial position (especially one seen as very much on the wrong side of history*) is not a great plan if you are interested in a public job, where you kind of need to appeal across the spectrum. If this is Lance's only foray into politics, I think he's fine. If he decides to become "Lance Berkman, former MLB player and anti-gay rights campaigner" that will close some avenues to him...

He is not an anti-gay rights campaigner. I listened to the message, and it does NOT condemn or disparage any class of people. It does point out a possible effect of a particular ordinance and urge its rejection on that basis. People may disagree that the stated effect will occur; they may agree that it will occur but disagree that the effect is harmful; or they may agree that the effect will occur and is harmful but believe that the risk is worth taking for other reasons. And people may further believe that on each of these points, the position opposing their own is foolish. But it doesn't seem that any of those positions are so beyond the pale as to be execrable.

If holding a foolish position on public policy were a bar to university employment, Rice would have to replace probably half of its faculty and administration, and the Ivy League would cease to exist.

Of course, there is no doubt that it may be tactically unwise to take positions that may prove to be unpopular. We would all like to think that society in general and academia in particular can maturely tolerate political differences, but unfortunately we know that's not the case.

+1
10-10-2015 03:09 PM
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RiceDad Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-09-2015 01:11 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 08:43 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:38 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Let's see. Lance Berkman's app for a coaching job: All-American at Rice University. Multiple All Star game appearances in the major leagues. Considered a leader in many team clubhouses. Hero of World Series. Learned under Wayne Graham, Tony LaRussa, Joe Gerardi and many others. But he can't be hired because he took a position on the HERO ordinance which was politically incorrect. Amazing.

No one said that. But head coach is one of those jobs which is not really very compatible with public political activism. What I said was if he hypothetically went down a path that led to him being known as Lance Berkman, anti-gay activist and former MLB All-star, that *will* be an issue for potential employers, at least if he's wanting to be a coach. That would put him at odds with Rice's own policies. (For all I know he has a pretty middle of the road position and just has specific objections to the HERO ordinance.)

It's not just this issue - though this one is probably more problematic than some others for multiple reasons.

Anyway, the biggest knock on him becoming a head coach somewhere right now is probably, you know, lack of coaching experience....

Well, if he became an Anita Bryant, I would agree with you. But this one issue should not keep him from coaching, if that is what he wants to do. As far as lack of experience, several MLB teams have hired managers who are first timers. Mike Matheny for instance.

If I lived in Houston, I would vote for the HERO ordinance. But I respect those on the other side. And I suspect that the way the Mayor and City Council handled the referendum issue has helped that side. But we need to stop demonizing those who we don't agree with.

bull****!! The only opposition to this ordinance is the totally lunatic claim that it will allow men to come in to women's restrooms, which is ridiculous and can happen now, but doesn't! This same ordinance exists in cities all over the country and these problems don't occur, so it's amazing to understand the opposition,especially since every pro business organization in Houston supports It! Not exactly, a group of crazy liberals!!
10-17-2015 11:45 PM
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RiceDad Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-17-2015 11:45 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 01:11 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 08:43 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:38 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Let's see. Lance Berkman's app for a coaching job: All-American at Rice University. Multiple All Star game appearances in the major leagues. Considered a leader in many team clubhouses. Hero of World Series. Learned under Wayne Graham, Tony LaRussa, Joe Gerardi and many others. But he can't be hired because he took a position on the HERO ordinance which was politically incorrect. Amazing.

No one said that. But head coach is one of those jobs which is not really very compatible with public political activism. What I said was if he hypothetically went down a path that led to him being known as Lance Berkman, anti-gay activist and former MLB All-star, that *will* be an issue for potential employers, at least if he's wanting to be a coach. That would put him at odds with Rice's own policies. (For all I know he has a pretty middle of the road position and just has specific objections to the HERO ordinance.)

It's not just this issue - though this one is probably more problematic than some others for multiple reasons.

Anyway, the biggest knock on him becoming a head coach somewhere right now is probably, you know, lack of coaching experience....

Well, if he became an Anita Bryant, I would agree with you. But this one issue should not keep him from coaching, if that is what he wants to do. As far as lack of experience, several MLB teams have hired managers who are first timers. Mike Matheny for instance.

If I lived in Houston, I would vote for the HERO ordinance. But I respect those on the other side. And I suspect that the way the Mayor and City Council handled the referendum issue has helped that side. But we need to stop demonizing those who we don't agree with.

bull****!! The only opposition to this ordinance is the totally lunatic claim that it will allow men to come in to women's restrooms, which is ridiculous and can happen now, but doesn't! This same ordinance exists in cities all over the country and these problems don't occur, so it's amazing to understand the opposition,especially since every pro business organization in Houston supports It! Not exactly, a group of crazy liberals!!

Sorry, should have added that I regularly feel demonized by those with whom I disagree on this subject based on the recorded phone calls I receive on a regular basis by the Harris County Republican Party!!!
10-18-2015 12:02 AM
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Post: #31
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
Two questions, for my own understanding. Since I no longer live in Houston, I haven't really paid much attention.

1. I am being told that this is really only to protect things like employment rights, which I support. If so, then why is the "public accommodation" language necessary? Why not pass the ordinance without that language?

2. I'm also being told that other cities have the same ordinance with no problems. The same ordinance verbatim? How does the "public accommodation" law get interpreted in those cities?
10-18-2015 12:04 AM
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davidw Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
I wonder what the support for this ordance really is. I predict a resounding defeat, but we'll see.
10-18-2015 02:11 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(10-18-2015 02:11 PM)davidw Wrote:  I wonder what the support for this ordance really is. I predict a resounding defeat, but we'll see.

??????????? You don't support equal rights for all??
10-19-2015 01:17 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
Bob Stein predicted a narrow victory the other day.
The Greater Houston Partnership has endorsed it, in part, it seems, over a perceived negative effect a defeat would have (loss of convention business, etc.).
10-19-2015 03:48 PM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
11-04-2015 01:57 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(11-04-2015 01:57 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Looks like Lance's side won:

http://www.chron.com/politics/texas-take...609845.php

...by a landslide. Good
11-04-2015 07:51 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
"The decision leaves Houston the only major city in Texas and one of the few nationwide without some form of a nondiscrimination law. "

My guess is that Houston gets a revised law pretty soon. Houston's come a long way in improving its image to one of a diverse, cosmopolitan city - I suspect there's a pretty broad coalition that doesn't want to throw that away.

My impression talking to people who know more about the issue than me is that it wasn't so much the transgender bathroom use part was poorly written (though it could certainly be improved) as that it made the "mistake" of addressing an issue that many people would prefer didn't exist and makes people uncomfortable.

EDIT: Heard that the "bathroom" portion of the ordinance was already removed. Not sure if that's true or not. If so, and the anti-campaign was based on that, wow....
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2015 10:06 AM by JustAnotherAustinOwl.)
11-05-2015 09:33 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Lance Beekman Politician
(11-05-2015 09:33 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  "The decision leaves Houston the only major city in Texas and one of the few nationwide without some form of a nondiscrimination law. "

My guess is that Houston gets a revised law pretty soon. Houston's come a long way in improving its image to one of a diverse, cosmopolitan city - I suspect there's a pretty broad coalition that doesn't want to throw that away.

My impression talking to people who know more about the issue than me is that it wasn't so much the transgender bathroom use part was poorly written (though it could certainly be improved) as that it made the "mistake" of addressing an issue that many people would prefer didn't exist and makes people uncomfortable.

EDIT: Heard that the "bathroom" portion of the ordinance was already removed. Not sure if that's true or not. If so, and the anti-campaign was based on that, wow....

The specific mention of "bathrooms" was removed. But the "public accommodation" language was left in, and could easily be construed to include bathrooms, so the same problem remained.

I don't think the ordinance would have failed, or even would have been challenged, if it had simply been the kind of antidiscrimination in employment ordinance that other places have. I have a number of gay and lesbian friends who voted against it, primarily lesbian friends who do not want a guy coming into their rest room.
11-05-2015 10:24 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Lance Berkman Politician
Anyone else see the Chron article that quote Lance whining about his "digital persecution"? Said it's unfair that he's being called a bigot on social media and he was shocked, shocked that Mayor Parker called him out personally -- saying "I didn’t expect her to talk about my girls or my family".

Well suck it up and get over it, big fella. In your ad you explicitly congratulated yourself for valuing your girls and family over your baseball career -- "I’m Lance Berkman. I played professional baseball for 15 years, but my family is more important. My wife and I have four daughters... " All mayor Parker did was call out your hypocrisy, for going to play for teams in three cities with similar ordinances after you left Houston.
http://www.khou.com/story/news/politics/.../73499142/
11-05-2015 10:23 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Lance Berkman Politician
Something that's been bothering me about this whole brouhaha is not having a clear sense of the pre-HERO legal status of cross-gender bathroom use in Houston.

If my wife goes into a public men's room, with no intent other than to relieve herself, is she breaking any law? How about the reverse with me in a public women's room? I can't remember the circumstances, but I know I've used a women's room at least once in my adult life (maybe the men's room was closed or something; in any case I think I was pretty sure it was empty).

Would this law have actually changed anything with regard to the legality of bathroom use?
11-05-2015 10:28 PM
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