I don't know if we're seeing a pendulum effect or if this is beginning to hit critical mass and we're about to see some chain reactions that will decimate the sport, but we're now seeing more and more articles about high schools disbanding football and participation rates of kids playing football at all levels are declining.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/sports...tball.html

Quote:There are no precise statistics on how many schools have shut down their football programs because of safety concerns, but a number of teams have been disbanded as participation in tackle football nationwide has declined amid rising awareness of concussions and other dangers.

Despite the popularity of college and professional football, the number of male high school football players has fallen to about 1.08 million this year, a 2.4 percent decline from five years ago.

Pop Warner, the largest youth football organization, has seen larger decreases. It has also been sued by a parent of a player who committed suicide at 25 and was found to have chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a brain disease linked to repeated head hits.

(09-30-2015 08:05 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I don't know if we're seeing a pendulum effect or if this is beginning to hit critical mass and we're about to see some chain reactions that will decimate the sport, but we're now seeing more and more articles about high schools disbanding football and participation rates of kids playing football at all levels are declining.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/sports...tball.html

Quote:There are no precise statistics on how many schools have shut down their football programs because of safety concerns, but a number of teams have been disbanded as participation in tackle football nationwide has declined amid rising awareness of concussions and other dangers.

Despite the popularity of college and professional football, the number of male high school football players has fallen to about 1.08 million this year, a 2.4 percent decline from five years ago.

Pop Warner, the largest youth football organization, has seen larger decreases. It has also been sued by a parent of a player who committed suicide at 25 and was found to have chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a brain disease linked to repeated head hits.

Kids will continue to play football as long as the NFL pays what they pay. It's the financial reward that kids want (also families).

Kids playing tackle football in 4th grade was never a good idea. Middle school seems like a good time to start.

Miko thanks for the link. I agree with you that -- right now -- it's unclear if we are observing a statistical blip in the road or something bigger and more important than that. But my honest hunch is that this is the beginning of a long-term decline for youth/HS-level football. In addition to the concussion-factor, the equipment is expensive and the individual families frequently have to subsidize the cost.

Just as an aside, I have 2 kids <6 yrs. old. Hanging out with other parents whose kids are in a similar age-range, I hear occasional comments that football isn't good for the health. Mike Webster's name has come up a couple of times. People are noticing this.

Recruiting will go more international and probably will hold tryouts even if a player didn't play HS football. Even though my parents didn't let me play HS football (I did get to play Jr. High), I would have like the chance to tryout when I went to college.

As for the Pop Warner football, I wouldn't let my kids play that young in this type of game. 7th grade is my minimum. Seen my coworkers kids get banged up and got is bell rung and only 11 years old. The wear and tear of this sport to too much to start so young.

Probably should take the helmets away, no kid is going to go head first in a tackle or target high and risk his head. Just look at Rugby.

Actually, that is what will happen after the American football gets decimated, it'll evolve to Rugby. Playing Rugby League rules will transition nicely as the field is quite a bit similar and the rules more akin to American football compared to the Rugby Union rules.

(09-30-2015 08:29 AM)Nebraskafan Wrote:  

(09-30-2015 08:05 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I don't know if we're seeing a pendulum effect or if this is beginning to hit critical mass and we're about to see some chain reactions that will decimate the sport, but we're now seeing more and more articles about high schools disbanding football and participation rates of kids playing football at all levels are declining.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/sports...tball.html

Quote:There are no precise statistics on how many schools have shut down their football programs because of safety concerns, but a number of teams have been disbanded as participation in tackle football nationwide has declined amid rising awareness of concussions and other dangers.

Despite the popularity of college and professional football, the number of male high school football players has fallen to about 1.08 million this year, a 2.4 percent decline from five years ago.

Pop Warner, the largest youth football organization, has seen larger decreases. It has also been sued by a parent of a player who committed suicide at 25 and was found to have chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a brain disease linked to repeated head hits.

Kids will continue to play football as long as the NFL pays what they pay. It's the financial reward that kids want (also families).

Kids playing tackle football in 4th grade was never a good idea. Middle school seems like a good time to start.

I think the Pop Warner stuff is a bad idea. You don't need to play in pads and helmets to get the skills except for OL blocking.

I've got a nephew that loves football and is in middle school. Had a neck injury when in elementary. Was in the hospital with a concussion a couple weeks ago. Hasn't even gotten to HS yet.

I'm glad my son isn't interested. He played organized flag football. He doesn't want to play regular football where the "kids just want to hurt each other." Of course, he likes lacrosse where, as he says, "a bunch of middle school boys get to hit each other with sticks."

(09-30-2015 08:29 AM)Nebraskafan Wrote:  Kids will continue to play football as long as the NFL pays what they pay. It's the financial reward that kids want (also families).

A fair point, but it only applies to kids who have (or appear to have) NFL-potential. What's changing is that boys who are athletic (but not with serious prospects) and just want to participate in some organized sports, are looking in different directions.

Quote:Kids playing tackle football in 4th grade was never a good idea. Middle school seems like a good time to start.

Age 13-14 sounds about right to me

(09-30-2015 08:29 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Miko thanks for the link. I agree with you that -- right now -- it's unclear if we are observing a statistical blip in the road or something bigger and more important than that. But my honest hunch is that this is the beginning of a long-term decline for youth/HS-level football. In addition to the concussion-factor, the equipment is expensive and the individual families frequently have to subsidize the cost.

Just as an aside, I have 2 kids <6 yrs. old. Hanging out with other parents whose kids are in a similar age-range, I hear occasional comments that football isn't good for the health. Mike Webster's name has come up a couple of times. People are noticing this.

We have friends who have kids who play. One got a serious concussion that was affecting him for months afterwards and had to sit out the rest of the season last year. Amazingly, his parents are letting him play again this year. More and more people are talking about the injuries and the head trauma is being discussed much more commonly than before. Like you, I believe we're going to see a long term erosion within the sport. There would have to be HUGE technological gains made to the equipment to greatly reduce concussions and somehow protect limbs. Even with the concussion situation going on, I think more parents are leery of seeing their child becoming permanently injured by the sport to the point where the kid has a limp for the rest of his life.

Regarding the expense portion of the equation, I don't see that as much of a factor. I believe youth hockey is more expensive than football - or at least very comparable. It's overall participation rates are steadily rising - growing 10% over a decade. I think youth hockey is more skills based and doesn't have the same issues with sanctioned fights and vicious checking like in the NHL at the lower levels. I'm sure high school allows more body checks.

http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2013/09/...2003-2013/

Like all sports it is a matter of risk vs. reward.

For me personally I do not believe that football is worth the risk knowing what we know now. Yes injuries can happen in any sport but most of them don't come with the long term risk to the brain that football does. So as much as I love football there is no way I would let my 11 year old play either in middle school or HS. Simply not worth it.

I understand the concern, but I feel Pop Warner is a good place to learn proper tackling, etc. It is important to get good coaches. My 9 yr old daughter is in her third year of tackle football and loves it. I let her play because she is about the same size as all the other kids and she enjoys it. But I also know that eventually she will stop playing so I don't have to worry about long term exposure to hits.

Kids in my part of the world start as early as 6, practice 2 hrs a day, 4 days a week. Pure lunacy. I'm a football guy and have 3 young sons (6, 9, 10) none of which have suited up yet and may never.

Well I think what they are finding is that those who start earlier are more prone to problems, whether that is because they do it longer or because they do it when their brain is developing is not clear.

After the war (WW2), a lot of schools took it to their football programs and cut them for a variety of reasons: cost, "culture," support, etc.. Did that have any effect on participation in the young? Colleges not wanting the sport to "sully" its image isn't the same as not wanting the sport because of the health risks, though some schools clung to that as part of a mission to shutter (the urban Catholic schools).

(09-30-2015 09:23 AM)samandrea Wrote:  I understand the concern, but I feel Pop Warner is a good place to learn proper tackling, etc. It is important to get good coaches.

No doubt that good coaching is crucial. But most parents are not sufficiently well-versed in techniques of tackling/blocking to know which coaches are "good" and which ones are not. Plus, at least some of the time, players sign up to participate in a league, not a specific team, and so they don't get to pick their coaches.

(09-30-2015 08:29 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Miko thanks for the link. I agree with you that -- right now -- it's unclear if we are observing a statistical blip in the road or something bigger and more important than that. But my honest hunch is that this is the beginning of a long-term decline for youth/HS-level football. In addition to the concussion-factor, the equipment is expensive and the individual families frequently have to subsidize the cost.

Another factor is that kids who are very good at one sport are pushed to concentrate on that one sport at an early age. This affects HS football more than other HS sports because football requires a much larger roster.

20 years ago or more, a lot of kids whose "best sport" is basketball or baseball or something else would play on their HS football team in the fall. But now, the baseball catcher doesn't play linebacker on the HS football team in the fall; he's on a travel baseball team playing in a "fall ball" league. A star point guard in hoops might have been the backup QB on his HS football team 20 years ago, but today a player like that plays basketball year-round. And both of those kids stopped playing football when they were 12 or younger, if they ever played at all, to concentrate on their #1 sport.

So maybe a HS football coach has only 50 boys try out for the team on the first day of practice instead of 80. He can't field a JV team at all, he'll have 9th and 10th graders at some positions where rival teams have bigger and more experienced 11th and 12th graders, and with a normal level of injuries and attrition the team might be stretched to have enough healthy players by the end of the season.

WOW

All these guys on a football message board and you don't allow your own kids to play football?

I expect that from the cook who is afraid to get his hands dirty and doesn't know the difference between a first down and a touchdown. Pretty pathetic coming from the rest of you.

Come on JR, lets go spend all day Saturday to watch a collegiate sport that I am afraid to let you play yourself.

(09-30-2015 10:12 AM)FlyHawk98 Wrote:  WOW

All these guys on a football message board and you don't allow your own kids to play football?

I expect that from the cook who is afraid to get his hands dirty and doesn't know the difference between a first down and a touchdown. Pretty pathetic coming from the rest of you.

Come on JR, lets go spend all day Saturday to watch a collegiate sport that I am afraid to let you play yourself.

I would not allow my kid to play pop warner. I can teach him in the yard. Middle school he can play.

I believe football is experiencing its zenith presently, I believe it will a experience a slow decline in student and fan participation in the coming years and decades unless the sport changes. A lot of variables at work the irreversible brain damage, joint damage, so called student athletes being seen as being taken advantage by big powerful institutions etc.

(09-30-2015 10:50 AM)BIgCatonProwl Wrote:  I believe football is experiencing its zenith presently, I believe it will a experience a slow decline in student and fan participation in the coming years and decades unless the sport changes. A lot of variables at work the irreversible brain damage, joint damage, so called student athletes being seen as being taken advantage by big powerful institutions etc.

Wait till the media goes after soccer like football, there are more concussions from soccer.

(09-30-2015 08:57 AM)WNCOrange Wrote:  Yes injuries can happen in any sport but most of them don't come with the long term risk to the brain that football does.

For head injuries, we have to focus on the misuse of the helmet in football. AFAIK, football is the only sport in which players use their helmets to make contact in the normal course of the game, and not just to protect the head from incoming contact. Baseball helmets protect the batter from a pitch near the head; they are not used to spear the first baseman to keep him from holding onto the shortstop's throw. Bicycle helmets protect riders from crashes, rather than being used as weapons in head-first contact with opponents.