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Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
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Kaplony Offline
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Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/mi.../71979146/

Quote:All-male ground combat teams outperformed their mixed-gender counterparts in nearly every capacity during a recent infantry integration test, Marine Corps officials revealed Thursday.

Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.

The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.

Quote:The Marine Corps' data findings included the following:

All-male squads and teams outperformed those that included women on 69 percent of the 134 ground combat tasks evaluated.

All-male teams were outperformed by mixed-gender teams on two tasks: accuracy in firing the 50-caliber machine gun in traditional rifleman units and the same skill in provisional units. Researchers did not know why gender-mixed teams did better on these skills, but said the advantage did not persist when the teams continued on to movement-under-load exercises.

All-male squads in every infantry job were faster than mixed-gender squads in each tactical movement evaluated. The differences between the teams were most pronounced in crew-served weapons teams. Those teams had to carry weapons and ammunition in addition to their individual combat loads.

Male-only rifleman squads were more accurate than gender-integrated counterparts on each individual weapons system, including the M4 carbine, the M27 infantry automatic rifle and the M203 grenade launcher.

Male Marines with no formal infantry training outperformed infantry-trained women on each weapons system, at levels ranging from 11 to 16 percentage points.

In a findings briefing sheet, officials also noted that there were tasks female Marines routinely struggled with that posed no similar challenge to their male counterparts.

Quote:In scaling an 8-foot wall obstacle, researchers wrote, male Marines would throw their packs to the top of the wall, while female Marines "required regular assistance" to do the same. During simulated casualty evacuations involving a 200-pound dummy, mixed-gender groups were notably slower at the task, except in cases when a single Marine would move the dummy using a fireman's carry. And in those cases, "it was most often a male Marine who 'evacuated' the casualty," according to the findings analysis.

Quote:The average male Marine volunteer was 178 pounds with 20 percent body fat; the average female volunteer weighed 142 pounds with 24 percent body fat.

In anaerobic power and capacity, female Marines averaged 15 percent lower levels than their male counterparts. In anaerobic power performance, the top 25 percent of female performers and the bottom 25 percent of male performers overlapped.

In aerobic capacity, female Marines demonstrated levels 10 percent lower on average than male Marines.

Over the course of the assessment, musculoskeletal injury rates totaled 40.5 percent for women, more than double the 18.8 percent rate for men.

In all, female Marines sustained 21 "time-loss" injuries which took them away from task force duties for a day or more. Nineteen of the women's injuries were lower extremity injuries and 16 percent took place during a task that required movement while carrying a load. Officials said they could not immediately provide the comparable injury rates for men but said lower extremity injuries were the most common among male Marines as well.

Quote:High injury rates among women were also a problem at the Infantry Training Battalion, the Marines' basic infantry training school for enlisted troops that temporarily opened to women between 2013 and 2015. Researchers found that female ITB participants were injured at more than six times the rate of male participants, and nearly one-third of their injuries occurred during movement-under-load tasks, while just 13 percent of male injuries did.

Overall, women graduated ITB with a 36 percent success rate during the evaluation period. Male Marines had a 99 percent graduation rate during that same window.

Female Marines fared much better in ground combat schools for other occupational specialties, indicating that jobs placing less emphasis on marching with heavy packs than rifleman and weapons specialties do may be more conducive to gender integration. The artillery cannon crewman course had the same graduation rate — 86 percent — for men and women during the evaluation period. In the tanks and amphibious assault vehicle crewman courses, women had a 71 percent graduation rate, compared to 99 and 94 percent for men, respectively.

Quote:It remains unclear how all these data findings will affect the ultimate gender-integration process for the Marine Corps. Even if Dunford does request that certain infantry jobs remain closed to women for reasons tied to combat effectiveness, his request may be overridden by Mabus or Defense Secretary Ash Carter, who will govern implementation of the Jan. 1 integration order.

Quote:For groups and organizations committed to allowing women the opportunity to fill combat roles, the Marines' new data findings may not provide much pause. Mary Kate Cunningham, a spokeswoman for the coalition No Exceptions, told Marine Corps Times in an earlier interview that no findings from the task force would change the group's position that female troops should be allowed in every job.

Quote:The idea that the military will be stronger with the largest possible pool of people able to compete for each job from groups like No Exceptions will come up against the Marine Corps' philosophy of promoting the best overall unit performance as an integration decision draws near.

"The Marine Corps fights as units," researchers wrote in their findings brief. "Therefore, developing and maintaining the most combat effective units must always be at the forefront of any contemplated institutional change."
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 03:22 PM by Kaplony.)
09-10-2015 03:20 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
[Image: 1354879-shocker.jpg]
09-10-2015 03:35 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 03:35 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  [Image: 1354879-shocker.jpg]

03-lmfao +1
09-10-2015 03:39 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2015 04:54 PM by Native Georgian.)
09-10-2015 04:54 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
No surprises at all. If you were never in the Infantry, you don't want to be a 50 Cal gunner (Crew Served) that is
a ***** to haul around. I liked having the 203 though. Shooting those rounds was fun.
09-10-2015 05:11 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.
09-10-2015 05:22 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

And what about his POV do you feel is out of bounds?
09-10-2015 05:59 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 05:59 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

And what about his POV do you feel is out of bounds?

I never said they were out of bounds?
09-10-2015 06:14 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

Why is the truth "needless hyperbole"? Military units that can't meet the standard put military lives and the mission in danger.
09-10-2015 06:41 PM
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dfarr Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 03:35 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  [Image: 1354879-shocker.jpg]

I lol'd
09-10-2015 07:03 PM
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blah Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
In other news water is wet.....
09-10-2015 07:04 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 06:14 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 05:59 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

And what about his POV do you feel is out of bounds?

I never said they were out of bounds?

You're alluded to Native's comments being hyperbolic, I'm just trying to figure out why you consider his POV to be exaggerated.
09-10-2015 07:06 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

Is hyperbole another word you don't know?

Hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Now look at this story...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/

Quote:The Pentagon unveiled plans Tuesday for fully integrating women into front-line and special combat roles, including elite forces such as Army Rangers and Navy SEALs.

If mixed gender teams are less effective then there is more risk to their lives. Therefore saying

"Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them."

Is a fair statement. (1) There is a push to make everything gender neutral and a mandate to get women in front line combat teams this year. (2) These teams are less effective. (3) Less effective soldiers could die at a higher rate.
09-10-2015 09:40 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
Even though the metric used in this experiment was flawed...combat ready men vs. new female recruits....I still believe they are correct in this assessment. There may be a handful of women that can fit infantry duty..but..they are few and far between.
09-10-2015 10:40 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 10:40 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Even though the metric used in this experiment was flawed...combat ready men vs. new female recruits....I still believe they are correct in this assessment. There may be a handful of women that can fit infantry duty..but..they are few and far between.
But they all played softball.

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09-10-2015 11:09 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 09:40 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 05:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 04:54 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Doesn't matter. Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them. That won't matter, either.

I'll take needless hyperbole for 100, Alex.

Is hyperbole another word you don't know?

Hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Now look at this story...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/

Quote:The Pentagon unveiled plans Tuesday for fully integrating women into front-line and special combat roles, including elite forces such as Army Rangers and Navy SEALs.

If mixed gender teams are less effective then there is more risk to their lives. Therefore saying

"Sooner or later, infantry will be "gender neutral" like everything else. True, that will result in needless deaths and injuries to American Marines and the people who rely on them."

Is a fair statement. (1) There is a push to make everything gender neutral and a mandate to get women in front line combat teams this year. (2) These teams are less effective. (3) Less effective soldiers could die at a higher rate.

Bull, first off, stop with the schtick. No one here thinks you're nearly as intelligent as you think you are. I am well aware of the meaning of the term hyperbole, and it fits. Until the military lowers limits to allow for the inclusion of women in these divisions, which they have not as far as I know, the women who would qualify for these roles they plan on integrating would be just as capable as men. That's what I meant by the hyperbole, that women overall aren't as physically capable as men does not mean there are no women physically capable of being in those units. You're conflating one to inherently imply the other, and that's simply not the case.
09-10-2015 11:55 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-10-2015 11:55 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Bull, first off, stop with the schtick.

No..

Quote:No one here thinks you're nearly as intelligent as you think you are.

Good thing I don't give a rats fat ass. I don't have a reputation for pretending I'm an expert on everything, that would be you.

I know what I know and I don't what I don't.

I also don't run down other people for "devaluing my degree" with internet posts.

Quote:I am well aware of the meaning of the term hyperbole, and it fits.

I would have assumed you knew what it meant. My 5th grader knows it. But if you know it why can't you properly use it?

His statement was meant to be taken literally. On that basis alone it's not hyperbole. He also did not exaggerate anything. He did not say "marines will be dropping like flies"

He said simply, that we are moving towards putting gender and gender identity inclusion over all things. That to to this in the military will lead to less combat efficient units (which this study showed). And less combat ready units will mean more deaths (common sense).

Now he could be wrong. But he is not being hyperbolic. You used the wrong word because you lazily attempted to dismiss what he was saying.

Quote:Until the military lowers limits to allow for the inclusion of women in these divisions, which they have not as far as I know

They have a directive to include women by January 1st. It's going to happen. And when the doors are open you will see corners cut on standards.

Quote:That's what I meant by the hyperbole, that women overall aren't as physically capable as men does not mean there are no women physically capable of being in those units.

Of course there are a few women here or there who can meet the requirements. That's not the point. The point is not to blow up units by including them. It's the military not a club.

And if you don't think standards will be lowered than you're a poor student of recent history. If its been done for fire fighters it will be done for the Military.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/03/woman-to-be...ness-test/

Quote:Rebecca Wax, 33, is set to graduate Tuesday from the Fire Academy without passing the Functional Skills Training test, a grueling obstacle course of job-related tasks performed in full gear with a limited air supply, an insider has revealed.

“They’re going to allow the first person to graduate without passing because this administration has lowered the standard,” said the insider, who is familiar with the training.

Point is this, and please think about it.

if I said 20 years ago that we would let trangenders use the girls changing room in high schools and put bakers out of business for not catering a gay wedding simps like you would yell "hyperbole" and "Slippery slope"..

Yet here we are.

Quote:You're conflating one to inherently imply the other, and that's simply not the case.

So you're saying the women in these units, the ones that struggled, did not individually meet the same standards as men?
09-11-2015 12:28 AM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
Quote: He said simply, that we are moving towards putting gender and gender identity inclusion over all things. That to to this in the military will lead to less combat efficient units (which this study showed). And less combat ready units will mean more deaths (common sense).

No, this study shows that a random grouping of mixed-gender teams are outperformed by a random grouping of same gendered teams, an outcome which surprises no one. The hyperbole comes in from taking this to mean that the median woman will be inserted into these units without consideration to their relative lack of performance. That simply isn't happening. What will most likely happen is the top performing women, who perform similarly as men, will be integrated into the units which are applicable.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2015 12:34 AM by UCF08.)
09-11-2015 12:33 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-11-2015 12:33 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  
Quote: He said simply, that we are moving towards putting gender and gender identity inclusion over all things. That to to this in the military will lead to less combat efficient units (which this study showed). And less combat ready units will mean more deaths (common sense).

No, this study shows that a random grouping of mixed-gender teams are outperformed by a random grouping of same gendered teams, an outcome which surprises no one. The hyperbole comes in from taking this to mean that the median woman will be inserted into these units without consideration to their relative lack of performance. That simply isn't happening. What will most likely happen is the top performing women, who perform similarly as men, will be integrated into the units which are applicable.

You interested in a beach house in Tempe?


FDNY was told they wouldn't have to lower standards until they were forced to. My own department was told we wouldn't have to lower standards until we were forced to.

I've fought fire with a couple of outstanding women. They call me "Brother" and I call them "Sister" to this day. Sadly the handful of them are outweighed by the metric ton-load of activists who came to the job to make a statement instead of coming to the job because it was a calling.
09-11-2015 12:51 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment
(09-11-2015 12:33 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  
Quote: He said simply, that we are moving towards putting gender and gender identity inclusion over all things. That to to this in the military will lead to less combat efficient units (which this study showed). And less combat ready units will mean more deaths (common sense).

No, this study shows that a random grouping of mixed-gender teams are outperformed by a random grouping of same gendered teams

From what population were the teams drawn?
09-11-2015 01:00 AM
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