(09-10-2015 08:35 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 03:20 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 01:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

I thought Kennesaw St. was in the Big South and if that is the case it would be only 50 miles from the University of West Georgia to Kennesaw St..

Kennesaw is in a tough spot. They don't fit very well in any other fcs conference. The socon would be the best if they wanted to upgrade but i highly doubt furman and co allow a public school so big with such potential to dominate in their clubhouse. The caa is a poor geographic fit as i dont see any desire to get back into Georgia.

I think their best bet is to get some of the Florida schools ro build up fcs programs and either do asun football or join them in the big south.

For Olympic sports they fit in well with the Florida schools

If fbs us their goal they would fit in nicely in the sunbelt if cusa ever steals ga st

If the OVC wanted to move southeast, a pickup of Chattanooga and Kennesaw wouldn't be the worst idea ever. But Chatt's probably happy enough in the SoCon with a clearer path to the automatic bid in both major sports and the return of ETSU as a rival.

(09-04-2015 07:12 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I thought VCU already bought City Stadium last year.

Richmond city still owns it. VCU has expressed interest in it, but they never said for what cause. It's a peculiar chunk of land because it's right in the middle of a big residential area south of Carytown and I-195/Downtown Expressway, and it's probably too hemmed in for a modern stadium and the necessary infrastructure, especially if VCU were to entertain FBS ambitions.

My guess is it'll eventually be sold and parceled out as residential development, possibly with an anchoring mixed-used development.

(09-11-2015 12:28 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 08:35 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 03:20 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 01:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

I thought Kennesaw St. was in the Big South and if that is the case it would be only 50 miles from the University of West Georgia to Kennesaw St..

Kennesaw is in a tough spot. They don't fit very well in any other fcs conference. The socon would be the best if they wanted to upgrade but i highly doubt furman and co allow a public school so big with such potential to dominate in their clubhouse. The caa is a poor geographic fit as i dont see any desire to get back into Georgia.

I think their best bet is to get some of the Florida schools ro build up fcs programs and either do asun football or join them in the big south.

For Olympic sports they fit in well with the Florida schools

If fbs us their goal they would fit in nicely in the sunbelt if cusa ever steals ga st

If the OVC wanted to move southeast, a pickup of Chattanooga and Kennesaw wouldn't be the worst idea ever. But Chatt's probably happy enough in the SoCon with a clearer path to the automatic bid in both major sports and the return of ETSU as a rival.

I think the UTC to OVC ship has sailed. They had their chance to move when ETSU was on their sabbatical from the SoCon and when the SoCon saw their mass exodus, but they decided to stick it out. I just don't see the financial benefit of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to leave one single bid conference to join another. I wonder how many years it would take them to break even from the savings in travel v. paying the exit fee.

Per this article, http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/sport...os/111546/

It would cost at least 600K in entrance and exit fees to make the move, plus forfeiting any conference revenue distributions. It would take a long time for the travel savings to make up that difference.

I have been looking at D2 in the area for both Big South and A-Sun could pick up.

Alabama:North Alabama, West Alabama, Tuskegee (wants D1) and UAH
Arkansas:Little Rock, UAFS, Arkansas Tech, Ouachita Baptist, Arkansas Tech, henderson State
Conn:New Haven, Southern Conn. State
Florida:Florida Tech (only an affiliate in Gulf South Conference), West Florida and get Stetson and Jacksonville to sponser scholarship, see if North Florida and FGCU to add football in the future.
Georgia:Albany State, Columbus State, Valdosta State, West Georgia, North Georgia
Indiana:Indianapolis
Kentucky:Kentucky State
Mass.:Bentley, Assumption
Maryland:Bowie State
Missouri:Missouri S&T, Lindenwood, UMSL, Missouri Southern
Mississippi:Mississippi College, Delta State
North Carolina:Catawba, Fayettville State, Lenoir-Rhyne, Winston-Salem, UNC-Pembroke (independent that needs a home), Saint Augustine's, Wingate, Campbell needs to add scholarships.
New York:Long Island Post, Le Moyne
Ohio:Ashland, Findlay, Central State Ohio
Penn:California, Indiana, Cheney, East Stroudsburg, Gannon, Kutztown, Lock Haven, Pittsburgh-Johnstown, Slippery Rock, West Chester
South Carolina:Erskine, Francis-Marion, Newberry, North Greenville, Southern Wesleyan
Tennessee:Bellarmine, Lane, Lincoln Memorial, Tusculum, Union, Carson-Newman
Virginia:Virginia Wise, Virginia State, Virginia Union
West Virginia:Charleston, Bluefield State, Concord, Ohio Valley, West Liberty, West Virginia State

I may have left some off. Who else could be possible candidates to fill holes in?

(09-12-2015 02:37 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  I have been looking at D2 in the area for both Big South and A-Sun could pick up.

Alabama:North Alabama, West Alabama, Tuskegee (wants D1) and UAH
Arkansas:Little Rock, UAFS, Arkansas Tech, Ouachita Baptist, Arkansas Tech, henderson State
Conn:New Haven, Southern Conn. State
Florida:Florida Tech (only an affiliate in Gulf South Conference), West Florida and get Stetson and Jacksonville to sponser scholarship, see if North Florida and FGCU to add football in the future.
Georgia:Albany State, Columbus State, Valdosta State, West Georgia, North Georgia
Indiana:Indianapolis
Kentucky:Kentucky State
Mass.:Bentley, Assumption
Maryland:Bowie State
Missouri:Missouri S&T, Lindenwood, UMSL, Missouri Southern
Mississippi:Mississippi College, Delta State
North Carolina:Catawba, Fayettville State, Lenoir-Rhyne, Winston-Salem, UNC-Pembroke (independent that needs a home), Saint Augustine's, Wingate, Campbell needs to add scholarships.
New York:Long Island Post, Le Moyne
Ohio:Ashland, Findlay, Central State Ohio
Penn:California, Indiana, Cheney, East Stroudsburg, Gannon, Kutztown, Lock Haven, Pittsburgh-Johnstown, Slippery Rock, West Chester
South Carolina:Erskine, Francis-Marion, Newberry, North Greenville, Southern Wesleyan
Tennessee:Bellarmine, Lane, Lincoln Memorial, Tusculum, Union, Carson-Newman
Virginia:Virginia Wise, Virginia State, Virginia Union
West Virginia:Charleston, Bluefield State, Concord, Ohio Valley, West Liberty, West Virginia State

I may have left some off. Who else could be possible candidates to fill holes in?

Erskine, Francis Marion and Southern Wesleyan do not sponsor football and have no plans to sponsor football in the near future. Newberry and North Greenville have absolutely no plans to move to DI.

(09-09-2015 08:25 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 06:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

The question was not how many four year schools started as hyphens of a flagship, but how many hyphens as a flagship that are four year schools are in the position because it was the easiest way to start them.

From the Wikipedia machine on UWGB:

Quote: By 1958, the University of Wisconsin-Extension's Green Bay center had swollen to 500 students, and was the second-largest of UW-Extension's eight freshman-sophomore centers. It grew to become the largest by 1965. Demand soon grew for a full-fledged four-year campus serving northeastern Wisconsin. Rudy Small, a vice president of the Paper Converting Machine Company, and Jake Rose, president of Kellogg Bank, took the lead in pushing for a new university in the region. In 1963, the Coordinating Committee for Higher Education unanimously recommended building a new university in the Fox Valley. However, Governor Warren Knowles was somewhat cool to the idea. Eventually, he compromised by proposing that the freshman-sophomore campuses in Green Bay and Kenosha be expanded to four-year institutions (the Kenosha institution eventually became the University of Wisconsin-Parkside). The bill was signed into law on September 2, 1965.[3]

UW–Green Bay officially came into being in the fall of 1968, with the first classes being held at the Deckner Center, home to the old Green Bay extension center. It moved to its current location in the fall of 1969.[4]

So there's two.

You haven't proven that starting a hyphen institution was the easiest way to start a new institution.

The fact that many current four-year schools started as Normal schools disproves that, likely.


Regardless if that was the easiest way to start a new institution or not, the point is that it doesn't make sense to maintain these extraneous campuses under the same board and president as the main campus. There should be a separate system for them to govern themselves, they should be folded into a different system (like MNSCU, for Minnesota- schools) or independent.

That's my opinion.

The U of Minn ("-Twin Cities") has plenty of its own operation to govern, without having to deal with Duluth, Crookston and Morris.

Kennesaw State is actually pretty close to Jacksonville State - the OVC wouldn't even need Chattanooga, but of course right now there is no room at the inn.

(09-11-2015 01:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-04-2015 07:12 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I thought VCU already bought City Stadium last year.

Richmond city still owns it. VCU has expressed interest in it, but they never said for what cause. It's a peculiar chunk of land because it's right in the middle of a big residential area south of Carytown and I-195/Downtown Expressway, and it's probably too hemmed in for a modern stadium and the necessary infrastructure, especially if VCU were to entertain FBS ambitions.

My guess is it'll eventually be sold and parceled out as residential development, possibly with an anchoring mixed-used development.

City Stadium is an old stadium in every sort of way that, were it demolished and rebuilt to modern standards, I have to bet it could, in theory, be done for FBS standards, albeit a limited ceiling (<40K). City Stadium's got such a wide footprint for a <25K stadium already: the track, the bleacher ring, etc....the folks building MLS venues can seem to put more in there with even less space; I have to believe it's at least possible.

While these scenarios are fun, and I'd love to see my UNA Lions or my Samford Bulldogs move up and compete at higher levels, the truth is big investment in athletic programs would be terrible moves for both schools.

I would imagine the cold hard truth is that the same is true for most of the schools listed in this thread.

(09-12-2015 12:47 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  You haven't proven that starting a hyphen institution was the easiest way to start a new institution.

I never set out to prove any such thing ... arguing that starting a hyphen institution is always the easiest way to start a new four year institution would be as silly as arguing that starting a hyphen institution is never the easiest way to start a new four year institution.

Indeed, it really ought to go without saying that there is no single, universally applicable rule nationwide, since because of the strong state-level influence in establishing public four year Universities, we are talking about fifty different state government histories. Nobody trying to find "the" single, universal set of rules need be taken seriously.

We already have two empirical observations of schools where in their circumstances, that was the open path that was available to them. So we know that it is sometimes the easiest path.

So that provides at least a partial answer to the question of why any school would ever choose to go that route ... at least sometimes, its the route that was open to get them where they were going. In states that have a lot of them, it could well have been for a period not just the easiest path, but the only path.

And being a "hyphen institution" doesn't have to suck ~ that depends in large part on the details of governance. If there is enough autonomy at the flagship institution in the system that they don't have to grab a tight lock on the system-wide governance in order to do the things they want to do, it can be possible for the balance between resource sharing in the system and bias toward the flagship to net out as a positive.

Please take the hyphen discussion to another board. It's getting a little silly.