(08-31-2015 07:59 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 07:55 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  Nothing has been said about state taxes. (If it has and I missed it, my apologies.) Or all of the various mandatory fees (which are just taxes in other clothes). These include: franchise, property and unemployment and disability insurance fees, and sales taxes on business equipment. Some of these may be used as deductions and credits to federal taxes (the loopholes) but at the end of the day, they add to the real taxes paid. I'm not a tax accountant, but when you add all of these in, corporations in the US may very well be the highest taxed on any metric.

Those taxes exist elsewhere and would be included in any comprehensive comparison between nations.

Who has done this comprehensive comparison?

For example, do the German states tax corporations domiciled within their jurisdictions? Do any other countries have the regulatory reporting, and associated costs, of a Sarbannes-Oxley?

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

I think lots Americans do not mind the taxes, it is just we hate how all that money is wasted.

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

(08-31-2015 07:59 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 07:55 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  Nothing has been said about state taxes. (If it has and I missed it, my apologies.) Or all of the various mandatory fees (which are just taxes in other clothes). These include: franchise, property and unemployment and disability insurance fees, and sales taxes on business equipment. Some of these may be used as deductions and credits to federal taxes (the loopholes) but at the end of the day, they add to the real taxes paid. I'm not a tax accountant, but when you add all of these in, corporations in the US may very well be the highest taxed on any metric.

Those taxes exist elsewhere and would be included in any comprehensive comparison between nations.

Yes, they are included in such comparisons made by companies and investors in determining where to put new operations or expand existing operations--and the USA loses.

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

You don't live in New Jersey either! Have $14,000 taken out of your family income for property taxes, another $800 for tolls, etc etc ....... general perception is based upon your local peers.

New Jersey generates the 5th MOST revenue amongst ALL states, yet we receive 50th in return!!!! Now that is LUDICROUS

Yea ...... WE ARE OVER TAXED!!!!

(08-31-2015 07:37 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 04:37 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 10:43 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Last time I checked, we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Deductions and exclusions drop the real corporate tax rate to a level below most other industrialized nations.

Then why play that game and just lower the rate in the first place?

Congressmen get fat "re-election" checks when they create a tax deduction for a given company. If they just lower the rate, "the bought and paid for" money they get dries up.

Congress likes the current set-up and they don't really care if jobs disappear overseas. They, themselves - get rich on the current set-up.

(08-31-2015 10:32 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 07:37 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 04:37 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 10:43 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Last time I checked, we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Deductions and exclusions drop the real corporate tax rate to a level below most other industrialized nations.

Then why play that game and just lower the rate in the first place?

Congressmen get fat "re-election" checks when they create a tax deduction for a given company. If they just lower the rate, "the bought and paid for" money they get dries up.
Congress likes the current set-up and they don't really care if jobs disappear overseas. They, themselves - get rich on the current set-up.

Unfortunately, I think you are spot-on here. And this applies to both D's and R's.

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

Yes...Waste and poor allocation of resources are are top problems. We have plenty of money to run the government well...provide for good infrastructure and still have a ton left over for a social safety net. The problem is we piss most of it away lining the pockets of middle class bureaucrats and Congressional boondoggles.

(08-30-2015 08:31 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  I'm reading this thread on my phone. Ain't nobody got time for dat!

Here's the Cliff's Notes version:

USA is among the lowest in total tax bite.
But our taxes are structured to take more from the "rich" and corporations than other countries.
By international standards,the "rich" and corporations pay more than their "fair share" here in the USA.
So the "rich" and corporations react normally and predictably by taking operations and jobs overseas to be taxed less on their profits.
How do those other countries manage that?
By using a consumption tax to make up about a fourth to a third of their total tax revenues.
If we want to compete better in the global economy, we need to institute a consumption tax, and lower or eliminate individual and corporate income taxes, and flatten the rate structure if we keep them.

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

But that's not at all addressing the point, which is that public perception in no way can be assumed to be an accurate representation of reality. The discussion on whether or not public perception is that we're being overly taxed is entirely separate from the discussion on whether or not we are objectively being overtaxed. You need to stop conflating them, because there are those on this messageboard who really don't understand they are entirely different issues altogether.

(08-31-2015 09:04 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:47 AM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  

(08-30-2015 09:14 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...tion-worl/


By different metrics we are either mid pack or low on the scale.

It's not the numbers, but the perception from Americans that count. If tax paying Americans feel they are over taxed then that means we are over taxed!

That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

You don't live in New Jersey either! Have $14,000 taken out of your family income for property taxes, another $800 for tolls, etc etc ....... general perception is based upon your local peers.

New Jersey generates the 5th MOST revenue amongst ALL states, yet we receive 50th in return!!!! Now that is LUDICROUS

Yea ...... WE ARE OVER TAXED!!!!

No, public perception is not a valid measurement of objective taxation. You're simply wrong making that leap, even if one can show quantitatively that we as a nation are overtaxed. Do you understand that?

(08-31-2015 11:25 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  That's a ludicrous sentiment to have.

Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

But that's not at all addressing the point, which is that public perception in no way can be assumed to be an accurate representation of reality. The discussion on whether or not public perception is that we're being overly taxed is entirely separate from the discussion on whether or not we are objectively being overtaxed. You need to stop conflating them, because there are those on this messageboard who really don't understand they are entirely different issues altogether.

So let's take an objective look. Would you agree that what other developed countries are doing in the aggregate provides a reasonable objective standard?

If not, what would you propose as a reasonably objective standard?

(08-31-2015 11:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:25 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:51 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Not really, when other factors such as waste are considered.

Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

But that's not at all addressing the point, which is that public perception in no way can be assumed to be an accurate representation of reality. The discussion on whether or not public perception is that we're being overly taxed is entirely separate from the discussion on whether or not we are objectively being overtaxed. You need to stop conflating them, because there are those on this messageboard who really don't understand they are entirely different issues altogether.

So let's take an objective look. Would you agree that what other developed countries are doing in the aggregate provides a reasonable objective standard?

If not, what would you propose as a reasonably objective standard?

I wouldn't propose one, as I honestly don't have the time nor the motivation to really dig through the different economic metrics used, which is why I've stayed out of that aspect of the discussion for the most part. It's just not my thing and quite frankly, it doesn't interest me enough to delve into the specifics enough for me to feel warranted talking about it.

But I do feel strongly enough about peoples jumping to making poor conclusions on evidence that doesn't warrant it, which is why I pointed out what I did.

(08-31-2015 11:32 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:25 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  Waste is another issue altogether, my point is that public perception is in no way, shape, or form an adequate measurement of a quantifiable issue like taxation. Most americans think crime is getting worse, too, despite the fact it's been trending downward for 25 years now. This isn't necessarily different.

Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

But that's not at all addressing the point, which is that public perception in no way can be assumed to be an accurate representation of reality. The discussion on whether or not public perception is that we're being overly taxed is entirely separate from the discussion on whether or not we are objectively being overtaxed. You need to stop conflating them, because there are those on this messageboard who really don't understand they are entirely different issues altogether.

So let's take an objective look. Would you agree that what other developed countries are doing in the aggregate provides a reasonable objective standard?
If not, what would you propose as a reasonably objective standard?

I wouldn't propose one, as I honestly don't have the time nor the motivation to really dig through the different economic metrics used, which is why I've stayed out of that aspect of the discussion for the most part. It's just not my thing and quite frankly, it doesn't interest me enough to delve into the specifics enough for me to feel warranted talking about it.
But I do feel strongly enough about peoples jumping to making poor conclusions on evidence that doesn't warrant it, which is why I pointed out what I did.

So, don't you think it's at least a wee bit disingenuous to demand an objective standard and then when questioned say oh, I don't know what one would be? If you're going to demand an objective standard, don't you think you should at least know what one is?

You probably wouldn't like the results given by the standard I proposed. It would say that we are not overtaxed in total, but that our taxes are structured to overtax the "rich" and corporations, and undertax the poor and middle classes, compared to other developed countries. Of course, their social benefits are generally not means-tested, so the middle class pretty much makes up the difference with social benefits. And the poor get by okay, because the benefits are pretty much universal, so they don't have to jump through so many hoops in order to game the system, like here. But the "rich" also get those benefits. Who really makes out in their system are the upper middle class, the entrepreneur class that we should be encouraging to help the economy grow. How do they get those results? A national consumption tax plus lower and flatter income tax structures, plus few or no personal deductions.

(08-31-2015 11:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:32 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 11:25 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(08-31-2015 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Waste is pretty much the #1 thing when it comes to public perception when it comes to taxes.

But that's not at all addressing the point, which is that public perception in no way can be assumed to be an accurate representation of reality. The discussion on whether or not public perception is that we're being overly taxed is entirely separate from the discussion on whether or not we are objectively being overtaxed. You need to stop conflating them, because there are those on this messageboard who really don't understand they are entirely different issues altogether.

So let's take an objective look. Would you agree that what other developed countries are doing in the aggregate provides a reasonable objective standard?
If not, what would you propose as a reasonably objective standard?

I wouldn't propose one, as I honestly don't have the time nor the motivation to really dig through the different economic metrics used, which is why I've stayed out of that aspect of the discussion for the most part. It's just not my thing and quite frankly, it doesn't interest me enough to delve into the specifics enough for me to feel warranted talking about it.
But I do feel strongly enough about peoples jumping to making poor conclusions on evidence that doesn't warrant it, which is why I pointed out what I did.

So, don't you think it's at least a wee bit disingenuous to demand an objective standard and then when questioned say oh, I don't know what one would be? If you're going to demand an objective standard, don't you think you should at least know what one is?

Absolutely not, and you're completely misrepresenting my argument by even claiming that to be the case. Pointing out the fact that public perception greatly differs from reality in no way would imply that I need to come up with a better way to measure reality. I'm simply pointing out a falsehood, and one that is used far too commonly around here. I honestly though you'd appreciate it, being that you're usually so outspoken about using reliable metrics regarding fiscal issues, but I'm assuming our disagreements on certain issues in the past just colored your view of my comments in general. Still, you're doing a disservice to every person on this messageboard who views you as someone who knows his sh*t by not immediately agreeing with my sentiment, because you very well know it's absolutely and undeniably true.

Quote:You probably wouldn't like the results given by the standard I proposed. It would say that we are not overtaxed in total, but that our taxes are structured to overtax the "rich" and corporations, and undertax the poor and middle classes, compared to other developed countries. Of course, their social benefits are generally not means-tested, so the middle class pretty much makes up the difference with social benefits. And the poor get by okay, because the benefits are pretty much universal, so they don't have to jump through so many hoops in order to game the system, like here. But the "rich" also get those benefits. Who really makes out in their system are the upper middle class, the entrepreneur class that we should be encouraging to help the economy grow. How do they get those results? A national consumption tax plus lower and flatter income tax structures, plus few or no personal deductions.

That's just complete rubbish on your part, assuming I wouldn't agree with your statement simply because of my political leanings despite the fact I've proven multiple times over multiple discussions to be a person capable of disagreeing with the commonly held beliefs among those who share a similar ideology when the evidence supports it. I don't know if I agree that our taxation is set up to overtax the 'rich', though I do remember compelling arguments being made by you that we overtax specific aspects of corporations, and the way in which tax write offs are structured IIRC. We've discussed this at length before, and we've already concluded that I don't disagree with your tax ideals but simply disagree with their implementation without the other social policies you'd support to which would offset their effect on middle and lower classes.

I would appreciate you trying not to just assume you'd know my opinions on matters though, and more importantly, to not incorrectly state them after we've discussed them in the past and I've stated things that contradict your assumptions.

My goodness 08, you surely are long winded. Are you related to Torch?