(08-11-2015 11:09 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:10 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Some interesting matrices for determining candidacy. He's a little generous with multiple market reach but interesting nonetheless.

http://newsok.com/a-west-virginia-fans-a...le/5438737

In my opinion, his criteria are mostly bunk.

They focus mainly on:

- on-the-field success, which everyone on this board know counts for literally nothing

- TV viewership, which is invalid because it's impossible to predict how TV viewers will respond to a school once it's in a P5 conference from analyzing viewership while outside the P5


The only reasonable statistic he looked at was attendance. But again, you can't predict attendance for being in the P5 by analyzing attendance while outside the P5.

And there are plenty of P5 teams that draw less than the top non-P5 teams. So it doesn't really matter.



I would most definitely say that the plains states conference (XII) does not need to add any more Eastern timezone schools. They should look at Houston, if Texas leaves. If Oklahoma leaves, look at BYU for football only.

I disagree with your assessment. On the field success translates into "brand" recognition. Whether you believe it or not "brand" recgonition is very important to an expansion candidate. Eventually the Big 12 will have to have their own network if they are to remain competitive from a monetary standpoint with the other contract 5 conferences. The markets that help any network are East, not West. Therefore I believe the Big 12 will expand Eastward as already implied by their commissioner. Btw, that whole "plains states," and on field success argument is rebutted by the previous invitation of WV.

You're talking apples to oranges, for a P5 XII vs. a non-P5 XII.

If we're talking about expansion with Texas and OU still in the conference, then that's not what I'm talking about.

I believe the XII will only expand once those programs (and possibly others, including WV) leave the conference.

WVU honestly has no where else to go as far as P5.

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G.

But neither the ACC, SEC, nor the Big Ten decided first on going to 14, and then started looking for the schools that would take them there. They all looked at the schools available, and decided that they were worth the downsides of expanding past 12 to 14.

(08-11-2015 11:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:09 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:10 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Some interesting matrices for determining candidacy. He's a little generous with multiple market reach but interesting nonetheless.

http://newsok.com/a-west-virginia-fans-a...le/5438737

In my opinion, his criteria are mostly bunk.

They focus mainly on:

- on-the-field success, which everyone on this board know counts for literally nothing

- TV viewership, which is invalid because it's impossible to predict how TV viewers will respond to a school once it's in a P5 conference from analyzing viewership while outside the P5


The only reasonable statistic he looked at was attendance. But again, you can't predict attendance for being in the P5 by analyzing attendance while outside the P5.

And there are plenty of P5 teams that draw less than the top non-P5 teams. So it doesn't really matter.



I would most definitely say that the plains states conference (XII) does not need to add any more Eastern timezone schools. They should look at Houston, if Texas leaves. If Oklahoma leaves, look at BYU for football only.

I disagree with your assessment. On the field success translates into "brand" recognition. Whether you believe it or not "brand" recgonition is very important to an expansion candidate. Eventually the Big 12 will have to have their own network if they are to remain competitive from a monetary standpoint with the other contract 5 conferences. The markets that help any network are East, not West. Therefore I believe the Big 12 will expand Eastward as already implied by their commissioner. Btw, that whole "plains states," and on field success argument is rebutted by the previous invitation of WV.

You're talking apples to oranges, for a P5 XII vs. a non-P5 XII.

If we're talking about expansion with Texas and OU still in the conference, then that's not what I'm talking about.

I believe the XII will only expand once those programs (and possibly others, including WV) leave the conference.

If Texas and OU leave then it is even more important for the Big 12 to remain competitive with the other contract 5's without having the two main marquee programs. The only way I believe that happens is with the money that flows from the big 12 network. Again the markets to establish that and make it profitable are Eastern. There are simply more eyeballs in the East.

(08-11-2015 11:16 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:29 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 08:49 AM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G. There should be No argument involved as No other P5 school will join the Big12 and these 4 are proven Football rich programs in Good Football locations. BYU and BSU are too far West and with WVU already in, Eastern expansion is the only way to go.

Only Cincy, Memphis, UCF, and Houston look like legitimate Big 12 additions.

Ok...

I agree with you ECU should be included in any expansion conversation.

#1 They make no sense geographically just like UConn

#2 They are always the last ones invited. There's no reason to think the Big 12 would evaluate schools that differently than the AAC, despite ECU's attendance.

Whether its academics, geography, position in the state's pecking order, revenues, basketball, non-rev sports other than baseball, something has always kept ECU down on everyone's list-CUSA took a while and then didn't invite them as full members for several years and Big East never invited them. They were one of the last invited to the AAC.

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G. There should be No argument involved as No other P5 school will join the Big12 and these 4 are proven Football rich programs in Good Football locations. BYU and BSU are too far West and with WVU already in, Eastern expansion is the only way to go.

Provo is as close as or closer than Orlando to most of the Big 12.

It is about 870 miles from Provo to Lubbock; 970 from Provo to Manhattan, KS. 1,430 and 1,350 miles to Orlando, respectively. It is 900 miles from Morgantown to Orlando. Why would proximity for WVU be more important than Texas Tech and Kansas St.?

Personally, I think the Big 12 should take Cincinnati, Memphis, BYU, and Colorado St.

WVU-Cincinnati-Memphis makes a nice and proximate eastern arm (pretty much right on the B1G/SEC border) and Colorado St.-BYU makes a nice, contiguous western extension. All good adds for football AND Olympic sports, especially basketball, and academics. Add DMAs #17 Denver, #34 Salt Lake City, #36 Cincinnati, and #50 Memphis. That's 4 million new TV households that the new members would actually deliver and actually expand/fill in the Big 12 footprint without the huge gaps...

...5 hours from WVU to Cincy...7 hours from Cincy to Memphis...7 hours from Memphis to both Ft. Worth and Norman...(7 hours from Ft. Worth to Manhattan, KS or 4.5 hours from Norman to Manhattan)...7.5 hours from Manhattan, KS to Ft. Collins...7 hours from Ft. Collins to Provo. [Note - 13 hours from Morgantown to Orlando)

Add to the Big 12 bowl schedule: Military-Annapolis (v. ACC/AAC), Armed Forces-Ft.Worth (v. B1G/AAC), and Las Vegas or Holiday-San Diego (v. P12).

(08-11-2015 08:21 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  BIG XVI

WEST
BYU
Oklahoma State
Oklahoma
Texas
TCU
Baylor
Texas Tech
Houston

EAST
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Memphis
Cincinnati
West Virginia
East Carolina
UCF

Corrected:

BIG XVI

WEST
Fresno State
Oklahoma State
Oklahoma
Texas
TCU
Baylor
Texas Tech
SDSU

EAST
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Memphis
Cincinnati
West Virginia
East Carolina
UCF

I like the idea of retaining the remaining 5 members of the old Big 8 in a division-
ISU, KU, KSU, OU, OSU

Lots of history. Add TCU (for a trip to Dallas)

B12 NORTH: ISU, KU, KSU, OU, OSU, WVU

That leaves a B12 South: TTU, TEX, BAY. TCU new members: BYU, and take your pick

(08-11-2015 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:16 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:29 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 08:49 AM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G. There should be No argument involved as No other P5 school will join the Big12 and these 4 are proven Football rich programs in Good Football locations. BYU and BSU are too far West and with WVU already in, Eastern expansion is the only way to go.

Only Cincy, Memphis, UCF, and Houston look like legitimate Big 12 additions.

Ok...

I agree with you ECU should be included in any expansion conversation.

#1 They make no sense geographically just like UConn

#2 They are always the last ones invited. There's no reason to think the Big 12 would evaluate schools that differently than the AAC, despite ECU's attendance.

Whether its academics, geography, position in the state's pecking order, revenues, basketball, non-rev sports other than baseball, something has always kept ECU down on everyone's list-CUSA took a while and then didn't invite them as full members for several years and Big East never invited them. They were one of the last invited to the AAC.

They help WV geographically.
They get the Big 12 into the heart of ACC country.
They just might have the most competitive team in North Carolina currently.
They have the second highest attendance of any non-contract conference.
They generally always have competitive football and baseball.
They offer a foothold into the mid-eastern seaboard.
Their administration takes athletics very seriously, they are invested into their sports programs.
The Big 12 doesn't give a rat's ass what CUSA or the AAC think.

(08-11-2015 11:36 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  WVU honestly has no where else to go as far as P5.

I think I agree with this.

(08-11-2015 12:02 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G. There should be No argument involved as No other P5 school will join the Big12 and these 4 are proven Football rich programs in Good Football locations. BYU and BSU are too far West and with WVU already in, Eastern expansion is the only way to go.

Provo is as close as or closer than Orlando to most of the Big 12.

It is about 870 miles from Provo to Lubbock; 970 from Provo to Manhattan, KS. 1,430 and 1,350 miles to Orlando, respectively. It is 900 miles from Morgantown to Orlando. Why would proximity for WVU be more important than Texas Tech and Kansas St.?

Personally, I think the Big 12 should take Cincinnati, Memphis, BYU, and Colorado St.

WVU-Cincinnati-Memphis makes a nice and proximate eastern arm (pretty much right on the B1G/SEC border) and Colorado St.-BYU makes a nice, contiguous western extension. All good adds for football AND Olympic sports, especially basketball, and academics. Add DMAs #17 Denver, #34 Salt Lake City, #36 Cincinnati, and #50 Memphis. That's 4 million new TV households that the new members would actually deliver and actually expand/fill in the Big 12 footprint without the huge gaps...

...5 hours from WVU to Cincy...7 hours from Cincy to Memphis...7 hours from Memphis to both Ft. Worth and Norman...(7 hours from Ft. Worth to Manhattan, KS or 4.5 hours from Norman to Manhattan)...7.5 hours from Manhattan, KS to Ft. Collins...7 hours from Ft. Collins to Provo. [Note - 13 hours from Morgantown to Orlando)

Add to the Big 12 bowl schedule: Military-Annapolis (v. ACC/AAC), Armed Forces-Ft.Worth (v. B1G/AAC), and Las Vegas or Holiday-San Diego (v. P12).

Why would proximity be more important to WV than Texas tech or Kansas st.? Is that a joke? The teams not named WV are already close to all other members of the big 12. They are not out on an island like WV is, that's why. I agree with the other poster if you add UCF, USF, UC, and ECU, you help establish the big 12 footprint into more households, with more potential growth, and solidify an Eastern wing of the Big 12, which fits nicely with what the Big 12 commissioner has already implied, ie. That expansion would be to the East.

(08-11-2015 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:16 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:29 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 08:49 AM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:41 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  To Me, UCF, USF, UC and ECU are No brainers to go as a set for Big 12 to get to 14 like the ACC, SEC and B1G. There should be No argument involved as No other P5 school will join the Big12 and these 4 are proven Football rich programs in Good Football locations. BYU and BSU are too far West and with WVU already in, Eastern expansion is the only way to go.

Only Cincy, Memphis, UCF, and Houston look like legitimate Big 12 additions.

Ok...

I agree with you ECU should be included in any expansion conversation.

#1 They make no sense geographically just like UConn

#2 They are always the last ones invited. There's no reason to think the Big 12 would evaluate schools that differently than the AAC, despite ECU's attendance.

Whether its academics, geography, position in the state's pecking order, revenues, basketball, non-rev sports other than baseball, something has always kept ECU down on everyone's list-CUSA took a while and then didn't invite them as full members for several years and Big East never invited them. They were one of the last invited to the AAC.

1: We're closer to WVU than anyone outside of Cincy
2: We've only been invited to one other conference. The Big East invited us on the SAME DAY as Tulane. We were held back due to our market and lack of foresight by the Catholic 7.
3: State pecking order? We just demolished both UNC and NCSU the past 2 years. We win recruits over them every single day (in the AAC even). We WERE invited to the Big East, not the AAC.

Since TCU and WVU were the last 2 in, They move East

could easily go to 16

Big East 8
TCU
WVU
UCF
USF
Cincinnati
Memphis
East Carolina
Houston

Big West 8

Texas
Oklahoma
Kansas
Baylor
Oklahoma State
Kansas State
Iowa State
Texas Tech

(08-11-2015 12:51 PM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  Why would proximity be more important to WV than Texas tech or Kansas st.? Is that a joke? The teams not named WV are already close to all other members of the big 12. They are not out on an island like WV is, that's why. I agree with the other poster if you add UCF, USF, UC, and ECU, you help establish the big 12 footprint into more households, with more potential growth, and solidify an Eastern wing of the Big 12, which fits nicely with what the Big 12 commissioner has already implied, ie. That expansion would be to the East.

WVU would have Cincinnati - very close. Kansas St. and Texas Tech may rather have a new conference mate that will actually bring fans to games in Lubbock and Manhattan (BYU) instead of bringing a team that is much FURTHER from them than WVU already is. This is why some Big 12 administrators have indicated that Houston and Memphis are attractive candidates.

WVU is still going to be the outskirts of the Big 12 - not a new hub.

(08-11-2015 12:53 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Since TCU and WVU were the last 2 in, They move East

could easily go to 16

Big East 8
TCU
WVU
UCF
USF
Cincinnati
Memphis
East Carolina
Houston

Big West 8

Texas
Oklahoma
Kansas
Baylor
Oklahoma State
Kansas State
Iowa State
Texas Tech

Not completely crazy...but I'd note a few exceptions. I think 14 is more realistic than 16 at this point for the Big 12. UCF and USF are an either/or IMO. UCF would get the nod due to huge enrollment and bigger brand. Cincy, Memphis seem like no brainers. As for a 14th and final spot (for now) each of those options is interesting, and I think UConn can be thrown in as an option for good fun. I honestly don't think that I have heard anything from my Big 12 friends about ECU. KC was the old Big 12 North hub...and I don't think we ever mentioned ECU in any conversation. Houston might be a decent option, but I feel like if they haven't been added by now, they never will.

Cincy and Memphis make plenty of sense each and every way about it. UCF, while a stretch, makes sense for visibility and viability. The last spot is anyones guess.

If the B12 winds up expanding and not luring another P5 team, they really screwed the pooch by not inviting Louisville and Cincinnati at the same time the invited WVU.

(08-11-2015 12:52 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:16 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:29 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 08:49 AM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  Only Cincy, Memphis, UCF, and Houston look like legitimate Big 12 additions.

Ok...

I agree with you ECU should be included in any expansion conversation.

#1 They make no sense geographically just like UConn

#2 They are always the last ones invited. There's no reason to think the Big 12 would evaluate schools that differently than the AAC, despite ECU's attendance.

Whether its academics, geography, position in the state's pecking order, revenues, basketball, non-rev sports other than baseball, something has always kept ECU down on everyone's list-CUSA took a while and then didn't invite them as full members for several years and Big East never invited them. They were one of the last invited to the AAC.

1: We're closer to WVU than anyone outside of Cincy
2: We've only been invited to one other conference. The Big East invited us on the SAME DAY as Tulane. We were held back due to our market and lack of foresight by the Catholic 7.
3: State pecking order? We just demolished both UNC and NCSU the past 2 years. We win recruits over them every single day (in the AAC even). We WERE invited to the Big East, not the AAC.

It's easy to blame the Catholic 7 schools for "not allowing" schools like ECU into the Big East in the 2000's, but ECU (and the others) never separated themselves from other C-USA schools to get them that shot earlier. From 2002-2007, when the old conference had undergone defections of VT, Miami and BC, and was looking for new members, ECU was just 27-43 in football. In 2011, when more defections occurred, and the league needed to expand again, ECU went just 6-7 and 5-7, in 2010 and 2011, respectively - not exactly screaming "we deserve to move up".

At the end of the day, both conferences are better off and have better opportunities, respectively, because of the split. Schools like ECU have a better shot of possibly getting an invitation to a P5 conference and the Big East schools get to keep their focus on basketball. Win/win.

(08-11-2015 01:12 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  If the B12 winds up expanding and not luring another P5 team, they really screwed the pooch by not inviting Louisville and Cincinnati at the same time the invited WVU.

At the time I wanted BYU and Louisville. Easily the best two on the board at the time.

(08-11-2015 11:36 AM)NBPirate Wrote:  WVU honestly has no where else to go as far as P5.

So once the XII is no longer a P conference, they can consider the AAC as a lateral move with much preferable geography.

(08-11-2015 11:47 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:09 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 09:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:10 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Some interesting matrices for determining candidacy. He's a little generous with multiple market reach but interesting nonetheless.

http://newsok.com/a-west-virginia-fans-a...le/5438737

In my opinion, his criteria are mostly bunk.

They focus mainly on:

- on-the-field success, which everyone on this board know counts for literally nothing

- TV viewership, which is invalid because it's impossible to predict how TV viewers will respond to a school once it's in a P5 conference from analyzing viewership while outside the P5


The only reasonable statistic he looked at was attendance. But again, you can't predict attendance for being in the P5 by analyzing attendance while outside the P5.

And there are plenty of P5 teams that draw less than the top non-P5 teams. So it doesn't really matter.



I would most definitely say that the plains states conference (XII) does not need to add any more Eastern timezone schools. They should look at Houston, if Texas leaves. If Oklahoma leaves, look at BYU for football only.

I disagree with your assessment. On the field success translates into "brand" recognition. Whether you believe it or not "brand" recgonition is very important to an expansion candidate. Eventually the Big 12 will have to have their own network if they are to remain competitive from a monetary standpoint with the other contract 5 conferences. The markets that help any network are East, not West. Therefore I believe the Big 12 will expand Eastward as already implied by their commissioner. Btw, that whole "plains states," and on field success argument is rebutted by the previous invitation of WV.

You're talking apples to oranges, for a P5 XII vs. a non-P5 XII.

If we're talking about expansion with Texas and OU still in the conference, then that's not what I'm talking about.

I believe the XII will only expand once those programs (and possibly others, including WV) leave the conference.

If Texas and OU leave then it is even more important for the Big 12 to remain competitive with the other contract 5's without having the two main marquee programs. The only way I believe that happens is with the money that flows from the big 12 network. Again the markets to establish that and make it profitable are Eastern. There are simply more eyeballs in the East.

If they leave, then they aren't a P conference and can't become one again by adding any of the current non-P5 teams.

So at that point, there's no point in adding far-flung schools.