I know this would never happen and some people are going to hate it and find all kinds of problems with this but it's just for fun so hear me out.

What if College football created a promotion / relegation system for all of it's football participating schools like the promotion/ relegation system that many European soccer leagues use.

Each year, the top five FCS schools would join a G5 conference for the next year. The conference champion from each G5 would join a P5 conference for the next year. And the bottom 5 G5 schools would compete in FCS the following year.

Using last year's results here is what it would look like.

These top five schools would join a G5 Conferences this year

FCS
North Dakota State
Illinois State
Sam Houston St.
New Hampshire
Eastern Washington


These 5 teams would join a P5 conference this year

American Memphis
CUSA Marshall
MAC Northern Illinois
MWC Boise St.
Sun Belt Georgia Southern



Youre thoughts?

Which schools would you like to see in which conferences?

What would be wrong with this system?

At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

(08-10-2015 11:27 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

The financial rewards would be great for a G5 schools moving up and receiving a piece of P5 media money. FCS teams moving up would get a good financial bump, but it wouldn't be nearly as large. I also think the competative disadvantages would be much greater for the FCS schools due to so fewer scholarship players, and lack of depth.

Of course this is just a "flight of fancy", but for discussion's sake I think it would only have the slightest chance of success if only FBS teams were involved. It almost seems that it would be more of a penalty to the FCS teams.

(08-10-2015 11:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 11:27 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

Nick Saban, is that you? LOL,... I mean haha!

(08-10-2015 11:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 11:27 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

You do realize all games involve payment right? Not just P5 vs G5.

(08-10-2015 11:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

I have the exact opposite question... Why do we need these enforced arbitrary boundaries in college football to begin with? College sports are becoming more exclusionary in the pursuit of the next dollar, when in principle I believe we should be going in the opposite direction. I don't understand why any school that wants to play on the 'Division I' field can't. Why not let Furman University run around in Division I football if they want to. Now, they may only be able to fund 70 or 75 scholarships to make ends meet, but if you want to fill up an OOC schedule with Ohio State and Florida, why not let them?

Now, now one is going to confuse McNeese State for Florida State today, nor would they tomorrow if the FCS labels disappeared. The market will still be able to sort things out, and the bowls would likely still take a 7-5 Michigan over a 12-1 MEAC school. But Alabama, Michigan, and Texas won't lose a single dollar if Howard, Stony Brooke, Towson, Youngstown State, or North Dakota State want in on the action, so why should they be excluded just because they are in an FCS conference? I say break down the arbitrary barriers and freely let schools play on the same field without forcing "attendance" limits or put up completely arbitrary barrier to "FBS entry". If Coastal Carolina or EKU can find 12 FBS schools that want to schedule them or invite them to a confernce, why should the NCAA or the G5 or the P5 stop them? It won't affect the value of the next Big 10 TV deal.

(08-11-2015 12:48 AM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 11:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

I have the exact opposite question... Why do we need these enforced arbitrary boundaries in college football to begin with? College sports are becoming more exclusionary in the pursuit of the next dollar, when in principle I believe we should be going in the opposite direction. I don't understand why any school that wants to play on the 'Division I' field can't. Why not let Furman University run around in Division I football if they want to. Now, they may only be able to fund 70 or 75 scholarships to make ends meet, but if you want to fill up an OOC schedule with Ohio State and Florida, why not let them?

Now, now one is going to confuse McNeese State for Florida State today, nor would they tomorrow if the FCS labels disappeared. The market will still be able to sort things out, and the bowls would likely still take a 7-5 Michigan over a 12-1 MEAC school. But Alabama, Michigan, and Texas won't lose a single dollar if Howard, Stony Brooke, Towson, Youngstown State, or North Dakota State want in on the action, so why should they be excluded just because they are in an FCS conference? I say break down the arbitrary barriers and freely let schools play on the same field without forcing "attendance" limits or put up completely arbitrary barrier to "FBS entry". If Coastal Carolina or EKU can find 12 FBS schools that want to schedule them or invite them to a confernce, why should the NCAA or the G5 or the P5 stop them? It won't affect the value of the next Big 10 TV deal.

FCS was created specifically to allow smaller schools that couldn't find the budgets necessary to compete at the highest level a way to associate with other similar schools, while still being able to play in DI in other sports.

As it is there is nothing to stop a FCS school from playing as many Cartel schools as it can schedule (subject to its own conference slate) but there is a finite demand for FBS schools to play FCS games.

(08-11-2015 12:33 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 11:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 11:27 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

That is an excellent point and it begs the question as to why P5 schools should even have to pay G5 or FCS schools in the first place.

You do realize all games involve payment right? Not just P5 vs G5.

That was a typo. I meant to say play.

When will the next hypothetical thread be created concerning P5 and G5...

SEASON CANNOT GET HERE FAST ENOUGH...

It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

(08-11-2015 10:18 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

I say SEC...

(08-11-2015 11:57 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 10:18 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

I say SEC...

If this were to happen the P5 conferences would have to be paired with the G5 conferences. Pac12 and MWC obviously pair as well as the B1G and the Mac. AAC is the most eastern based G5 so that gets the ACC. From there CUSA and Sunbelt could be paired with either SEC or Big 12. I would say pair CUSA with SEC and Sunbelt for Big12. It would also have to be limited to 1A because of the scholarship differences between 1A and 1AA. Say 2 teams are relegated and 2 teams are promoted between each group here is what the results would look like for last year.

AAC - ACC
Memphis and Cincinnati promoted while Syracuse and Wake Forest are relegated.

B1G - Mac
Northern Illinois and Toledo are promoted while Indiana and Purdue are relegated.

Big 12 - Sunbelt
Georgia Southern and ULL are promoted while Iowa State and Kansas are relegated.

Pac12 - MWC
Boise and Colorado State are promoted while Oregon State and Washington State are relegated.

SEC - CUSA
Marshall and La Tech are promoted while Vanderbilt and Kentucky are relegated.

(08-11-2015 12:50 PM)benny_t Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:57 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 10:18 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

I say SEC...

If this were to happen the P5 conferences would have to be paired with the G5 conferences. Pac12 and MWC obviously pair as well as the B1G and the Mac. AAC is the most eastern based G5 so that gets the ACC. From there CUSA and Sunbelt could be paired with either SEC or Big 12. I would say pair CUSA with SEC and Sunbelt for Big12. It would also have to be limited to 1A because of the scholarship differences between 1A and 1AA. Say 2 teams are relegated and 2 teams are promoted between each group here is what the results would look like for last year.

AAC - ACC
Memphis and Cincinnati promoted while Syracuse and Wake Forest are relegated.

B1G - Mac
Northern Illinois and Toledo are promoted while Indiana and Purdue are relegated.

Big 12 - Sunbelt
Georgia Southern and ULL are promoted while Iowa State and Kansas are relegated.

Pac12 - MWC
Boise and Colorado State are promoted while Oregon State and Washington State are relegated.

SEC - CUSA
Marshall and La Tech are promoted while Vanderbilt and Kentucky are relegated.

Haha I was just joking but clearly some have a lot of time on their hands to think all of this out, lol...This is laughable to think any way remotely possible this would happen....Unfortunately football is not the only NCAA sport....

(08-11-2015 12:53 PM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 12:50 PM)benny_t Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:57 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 10:18 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

I say SEC...

If this were to happen the P5 conferences would have to be paired with the G5 conferences. Pac12 and MWC obviously pair as well as the B1G and the Mac. AAC is the most eastern based G5 so that gets the ACC. From there CUSA and Sunbelt could be paired with either SEC or Big 12. I would say pair CUSA with SEC and Sunbelt for Big12. It would also have to be limited to 1A because of the scholarship differences between 1A and 1AA. Say 2 teams are relegated and 2 teams are promoted between each group here is what the results would look like for last year.

AAC - ACC
Memphis and Cincinnati promoted while Syracuse and Wake Forest are relegated.

B1G - Mac
Northern Illinois and Toledo are promoted while Indiana and Purdue are relegated.

Big 12 - Sunbelt
Georgia Southern and ULL are promoted while Iowa State and Kansas are relegated.

Pac12 - MWC
Boise and Colorado State are promoted while Oregon State and Washington State are relegated.

SEC - CUSA
Marshall and La Tech are promoted while Vanderbilt and Kentucky are relegated.

Haha I was just joking but clearly some have a lot of time on their hands to think all of this out, lol...This is laughable to think any way remotely possible this would happen....Unfortunately football is not the only NCAA sport....

I agree that it would never happen but it would have to be a football only set up. Not much thought was put into it I'm just bored at work right now.

(08-10-2015 11:27 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  At one point in time, I was intrigued by promotion/relegation. However, I've seen too many stories in recent years that promotion/relegation would have prevented...

Remember when Auburn went from last in the SEC to undefeated national champions in one season?
Or UCF going winless in the MAC in 2004, to CUSA East Champions the next year...
Or Southern Miss being a Top 25 conference champion one day in 2011, to not winning more than 5 total games in the three years since...
Or Memphis going from AAC football joke to conference champion this past season?

College football rosters change by about 25% annually. It's a bigger turnover than the pros, where the Boston RedSox has gone on a last, first, last, World Series champions, and last place finishes in consecutive seasons. Team fortunes can and do change wildly.

Promotion/relegation creates drama, but doesn't promote fairness or real opportunities. Student athletes chose a school and an opportunity to compete at a certain level that their talent allows. Why should that change because one person dropped that game winning pass last year?

It's a good idea but the promotions/relegations would need to be based on a running ten-year average, not by the previous season.

So this year's moves would be based on a team's average performance for the seasons 2005-2014. Last year's moves would've been based on a team's average performance from 2004-2013. While next year's would be based on 2006-2015.

10-year average is way too long a period. And annual promotion/relegation is too often.

IMO the cycle should be two seasons. A promoted team drawing a killer schedule one season would just be sent back down with a 1-year cycle. A 2-year cycle would also eliminate most of the scheduling chaos.

(08-12-2015 12:01 AM)FriscoDawg Wrote:  10-year average is way too long a period. And annual promotion/relegation is too often.

IMO the cycle should be two seasons. A promoted team drawing a killer schedule one season would just be sent back down with a 1-year cycle. A 2-year cycle would also eliminate most of the scheduling chaos.

Two years is way too short to allow a team to recover from devastating losses of talent due to mass exodus, mass injuries, or whatever reason. Ten years gives a good indication of a team's general trend, either improving or devolving. Plus, it prevents a flash-in-the-pan team from pulling the stops out to get one really good recruiting class just to move up. A team must prove over an extended period that they are improving.

I could accept 8 years because it covers a really good recruiting class every four years and indicates a trend. Thus keeping the roster full of high-level talent.

As a big soccer fan, I've thought about this a fair amount and it's something I'd like to see, I don't think you'd necessarily have to pair conferences, another approach could be to divide the country into regions in both FCS and FBS, and promote/relegate the same number of schools within each region. Every region has it's individual rankings in the "college football promotion/relegation poll"

For simplicity call it south, northeast, midwest, west. Promote/relegate 4 out of each region, 16/128(12.5%, fairly close to the commonly found 3/20 15% in soccer) if the relegated schools are all G5 they would simply switch places with the FCS schools, in the case of a P5 school getting relegated, the highest rated G5 school in the region takes that spot and the promoted FCS school fills the G5 spot.

I don't know what the time period should be and the best version of this plan probably involves turning over scheduling to a governing body, which also would never happen. I'm not even saying my plan is a better one, that's the fun thing about hypotheticals with zero shot of happening, all the ideas have equal shot of happening, so I don't see much point in debating the relative merit of different ideas.

On a related note, ask me about my plan to ween the MLB off the farm system and onto promotion/relegation over three years. Ultimately there would still be the equivalent of AAA in the form of reserve teams, but they would be members of the major league club, but over the three years you can protect less and less of your minor league players, each year the unprotected players go through a quick limited waiver like period, before going into a minor league draft where the soon to be independent clubs can begin transitioning their rosters into their own players.

Or about starting a MLS2 with the purpose of eventually growing it to a promotion/relegation system. Set a cap on the MLS somewhere between 24 and 30 and set an incremental expansion plan, when accepting applications for the final X number of spots also make a second application for 12 MLS2 spots with a different criteria(expandable stadium among other things), cities can apply for both or just one. If a city wants to go big or go home, they are welcome to, if a city knows they aren't MLS ready, but believes they are MLS2 ready they can do that.

(08-11-2015 12:50 PM)benny_t Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 11:57 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 10:18 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's just another form of fantasy football. If this happened, I think Marshall would play in the Big 10 and would be replaced for one season by Sam Houston St.

I say SEC...

If this were to happen the P5 conferences would have to be paired with the G5 conferences. Pac12 and MWC obviously pair as well as the B1G and the Mac. AAC is the most eastern based G5 so that gets the ACC. From there CUSA and Sunbelt could be paired with either SEC or Big 12. I would say pair CUSA with SEC and Sunbelt for Big12. It would also have to be limited to 1A because of the scholarship differences between 1A and 1AA. Say 2 teams are relegated and 2 teams are promoted between each group here is what the results would look like for last year.

AAC - ACC
Memphis and Cincinnati promoted while Syracuse and Wake Forest are relegated.

B1G - Mac
Northern Illinois and Toledo are promoted while Indiana and Purdue are relegated.

Big 12 - Sunbelt
Georgia Southern and ULL are promoted while Iowa State and Kansas are relegated.

Pac12 - MWC
Boise and Colorado State are promoted while Oregon State and Washington State are relegated.

SEC - CUSA
Marshall and La Tech are promoted while Vanderbilt and Kentucky are relegated.

That's not bad. What about Big 10?