I guess we just disagree about your relative eagerness to denounce one side over the other, and to be fair, I'm really only on your case about it because just like we need the intelligent and self-critical left-leaning individuals to be vocal about the many issues with some leftist policies and stances, we need the same out of people like yourself who lean more right. I'm not going to name other posters, but we all know which ones I'm referring to when I state that some here simply aren't worth the effort.

I guess I just don't see much of the "intelligent and self-critical left-leaning individuals" criticizing leftist policies and stances. I don't recall many instances of left-leaning posters taking Obama to task for anything other than not being far enough left.

It's probably a matter of perception. You'd like for me to come down harder on righties, I'd like for you to come down harder on lefties.

(07-27-2015 10:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:39 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:02 PM)Paul M Wrote:  You're having trouble understanding what you're reading.

This is where I say, no I'm not you are. I guess what you are trying to say is that the VC fired on the Lt. that was in the water, stopped when the swift boats returned and what? resumed firing only after Kerry pulled him out? That isn't even logical.

I'm just responding to what you're posting. Nothing you've posted says Kerry was under fire while getting the guy out of the water. Nothing. The guy surfaced and saw all the boats had left. You haven't posted anything that says they returned while still receiving fire. Everything says they received fire that day. Nothing says they were while retrieving their men.

Maybe you could post something else that says that. What you've posted so far doesn't.

Okay, if this doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

Quote:The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to


JOHN FORBES KERRY
LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION



"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the River, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the combat "V".


For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

This should settle what happened that day on the river.

It most certainly is a matter of perspective, but let's not mince words about this messageboard. It falls solidly right of centrist, with a large amount of the most vocal posters holding far-right and neocon positions which are really untenable and illogical in many ways. I still do find time to point out issues with some of the leftist posters on here, but realistically speaking, this messageboard doesn't in any way, shape, or form lack in Obama-bashing.

To be completely fair, if this were a messageboard full of leftists, I'd probably come off more like yourself, because I can't stand anything more than cheerleading politics.

(07-28-2015 09:19 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I guess I just don't see much of the "intelligent and self-critical left-leaning individuals" criticizing leftist policies and stances. I don't recall many instances of left-leaning posters taking Obama to task for anything other than not being far enough left.

It's probably a matter of perception. You'd like for me to come down harder on righties, I'd like for you to come down harder on lefties.

This is probably true, on both sides. The thing is, while I don't agree with Obama on everything, this board has so many anti-Obama or anti-liberal rants for everything that I don't feel it necessary to pile on for those few rants that I agree with.

I think both Parties are Stupid as hell. I just happen to agree with the way republicans "want" (at least campaign) to run the economy. and i think the economy is more important than social issue at this time. once the economy is back and chugging then we can focus on social issues.

(07-28-2015 09:24 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 10:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:39 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:02 PM)Paul M Wrote:  You're having trouble understanding what you're reading.

This is where I say, no I'm not you are. I guess what you are trying to say is that the VC fired on the Lt. that was in the water, stopped when the swift boats returned and what? resumed firing only after Kerry pulled him out? That isn't even logical.

I'm just responding to what you're posting. Nothing you've posted says Kerry was under fire while getting the guy out of the water. Nothing. The guy surfaced and saw all the boats had left. You haven't posted anything that says they returned while still receiving fire. Everything says they received fire that day. Nothing says they were while retrieving their men.

Maybe you could post something else that says that. What you've posted so far doesn't.

Okay, if this doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

Quote:The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to


JOHN FORBES KERRY
LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION



"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the River, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the combat "V".


For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

This should settle what happened that day on the river.

Why?

Do you not understand what the controversy was about? While running for President, other men who were there said it was based on lies.

(07-28-2015 03:14 PM)DragonLair Wrote:  I think both Parties are Stupid as hell. I just happen to agree with the way republicans "want" (at least campaign) to run the economy. and i think the economy is more important than social issue at this time. once the economy is back and chugging then we can focus on social issues.

I would only ask that you look into their actual policies, the data on what those policies show, and ignore the rhetoric spouted by either side. I just see too many people repeating what their politicians say, without putting any real thought or delving into those issues past skin deep.

(07-28-2015 05:44 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 09:24 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 10:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:39 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  This is where I say, no I'm not you are. I guess what you are trying to say is that the VC fired on the Lt. that was in the water, stopped when the swift boats returned and what? resumed firing only after Kerry pulled him out? That isn't even logical.

I'm just responding to what you're posting. Nothing you've posted says Kerry was under fire while getting the guy out of the water. Nothing. The guy surfaced and saw all the boats had left. You haven't posted anything that says they returned while still receiving fire. Everything says they received fire that day. Nothing says they were while retrieving their men.

Maybe you could post something else that says that. What you've posted so far doesn't.

Okay, if this doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

Quote:The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to


JOHN FORBES KERRY
LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION



"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the River, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the combat "V".


For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

This should settle what happened that day on the river.

Why?

Do you not understand what the controversy was about? While running for President, other men who were there said it was based on lies.

Other men that were there also said it wasn't based on lies.

Thus... controversy.

(07-28-2015 06:16 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Thus... controversy.

And the SBVT were shown time and time again to have been wrong. Their version didn't hold up to all objective looks at his record. I use the Bronze star incident because that is the one where they actually had some members of the SBVT group present that day. The other claims by the group are even easier to disprove. Good gosh man it was a political hit job. It was disproved but had already accomplished it's purpose.

No, you're simply wrong.

(07-28-2015 07:41 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, you're simply wrong.

Explain.

(07-28-2015 07:49 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 07:41 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, you're simply wrong.

Explain.

I'm just going to drop it. Paul is going to believe what he wants to believe regardless of all the evidence to the contrary. It is as if he he saying, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes."

(07-28-2015 09:24 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 10:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:39 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:18 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 09:02 PM)Paul M Wrote:  You're having trouble understanding what you're reading.

This is where I say, no I'm not you are. I guess what you are trying to say is that the VC fired on the Lt. that was in the water, stopped when the swift boats returned and what? resumed firing only after Kerry pulled him out? That isn't even logical.

I'm just responding to what you're posting. Nothing you've posted says Kerry was under fire while getting the guy out of the water. Nothing. The guy surfaced and saw all the boats had left. You haven't posted anything that says they returned while still receiving fire. Everything says they received fire that day. Nothing says they were while retrieving their men.

Maybe you could post something else that says that. What you've posted so far doesn't.

Okay, if this doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

Quote:The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to


JOHN FORBES KERRY
LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION



"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the River, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the combat "V".


For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

This should settle what happened that day on the river.

Uh-huh, and Pat Tillman WASN'T killed by friendly fire.

(07-28-2015 08:12 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 07:49 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 07:41 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, you're simply wrong.

Explain.

I'm just going to drop it. Paul is going to believe what he wants to believe regardless of all the evidence to the contrary. It is as if he he saying, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes."

How many time I gotta say it? Your quotes don't say what you keep insisting they say.

(07-28-2015 09:24 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  Okay, if this doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

Quote:The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Bronze Star Medal to
JOHN FORBES KERRY
LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following:
CITATION
"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the River, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."
Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the combat "V".
For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

This should settle what happened that day on the river.

Who was involved in writing that who was also present that day on the river?

Hearsay doesn't settle anything.

Here's what I think actually happened, incorporating some of my own (not immense, but greater than zero) knowledge about the tempo of operations in small boats on the Mekong. These guys were in the same squadron. That means they operated together. In such situations, there almost always arises an ongoing rivalry among the boats. My guess is that along the way, Kerry pissed off some of the others. Given that his style can range from arrogance to dismissiveness, and given the pressures of living 24/7 in an intense combat zone, it's not hard to imagine any number of scenarios where that could have occurred. My guess is that Kerry claimed credit for some things that the others thought were rightly theirs instead of his. That is a pretty common occurrence in these situations as well, particularly since under the conditions it would at best have been difficult to prepare an accurate factual narrative in many cases. If that were the case, then the Bronze Star would have really pissed them off. When Kerry showed up running for president, and particularly when he did in fact make a big deal about his military service, my guess is that a bunch of them got in touch with each other and said, "Do you see what that lying SOB Kerry is doing?" And that led them to act. The motivation was not political but revenge, settling a score from many years ago. If that's anywhere close to what happened, then the truth probably lies somewhere in between the two accounts. This would mean that Kerry inflated his military service but perhaps not to the extent claimed by the swift boaters. Again, based on the totality of my experiences in a 22 year naval career, I'd put the probability of that narrative at about 90-95%.

Moral: If you're in the military and you plan to run for president some day, don't piss people off.

(07-28-2015 05:44 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 03:14 PM)DragonLair Wrote:  I think both Parties are Stupid as hell. I just happen to agree with the way republicans "want" (at least campaign) to run the economy. and i think the economy is more important than social issue at this time. once the economy is back and chugging then we can focus on social issues.

I would only ask that you look into their actual policies, the data on what those policies show, and ignore the rhetoric spouted by either side. I just see too many people repeating what their politicians say, without putting any real thought or delving into those issues past skin deep.

I have already developed opinions on how to "fix" things and the fall very similar to owl69