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Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #1
Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
Some say yes. Some say no.

I've heard that the contract is ironclad and I've heard that OK state law prevents such a contract from having influence over public institutions.

So where is all this smoke coming from? Boren's comments started a firestorm. Cowherd's tweet made some take notice, but I have serious doubts about his direct knowledge of the situation. However, message boards are filled with people who claim to know insiders and they all seem to say moves are coming soon. I have to say I've seen some of the same ideas from people who are totally disconnected and have no motivation to be misleading. Those same people aren't terribly public with their thoughts.

What is a realistic timeline of OU's departure from the Big 12? Could we see an announcement within the next few months or will it not be until 2025?

Do the networks have a motivation for moving OU now or would they rather try to save the Big 12? Where do the goals of cost cutting and increasing live content meet?

These are all questions we've been discussing for a while now to varying degrees, but I just want to see some comprehensive thoughts on it if anyone out there would like to share. For me, it's the 'not knowing' that is driving me nuts.
07-25-2015 09:21 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
Just my opinion. But I think we will see Oklahoma start to get ready to move this spring. I think the ground work is being laid now for such a move. If the Big 12 is left out of the playoff again. Then we all will start to hear more and more as the Big 12 members make less and less.
07-25-2015 10:35 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2015 12:00 AM by JRsec.)
07-26-2015 12:00 AM
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AllTideUp Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

Do you think a private university might have more trouble escaping a GOR than a public school?
07-26-2015 05:04 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 05:04 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

Do you think a private university might have more trouble escaping a GOR than a public school?

Absolutely. Their governing organization is a salaried body of the school. For a state university the president is an agent of the state, but is subject to the budgetary constraints of the House of Representatives. I can't see how the house would permit its agent to enter into any long term contract which might constrain a revenue stream from producing all it could make. If athletic departments are permitted to remain separate entities that claim the non profit status of their schools then how can profitable ones (like Alabama & Auburn) remain exempt from taxes?
07-26-2015 09:19 AM
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ClemVegas Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.
07-26-2015 02:41 PM
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murrdcu Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-25-2015 10:35 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Just my opinion. But I think we will see Oklahoma start to get ready to move this spring. I think the ground work is being laid now for such a move. If the Big 12 is left out of the playoff again. Then we all will start to hear more and more as the Big 12 members make less and less.

I agree with this view. If the Big 12 gets left out of the CFP's again, then this should be the final straw required to get OU to move out of the conference. How? Let's see what their legal team comes up with. This will be their next landmark movement since the TV rights case.
07-26-2015 06:52 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.
07-26-2015 08:02 PM
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Soobahk40050 Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.
07-26-2015 09:26 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

JR, I don't know about the legal team you've mentioned, but it seems to me to be a long shot argument. Courts are not very receptive to the argument that a party can knowingly sign a contract and then plead that they didn't have the power to sign.

I think the GOR is solid. It's a grant of property rights, kind of like renting out your house for 10 years. You can't show up 5 years later and say "I hereby un-rent this house." I don't know of any legal theory that allows a university to 'unsell' something it sold.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no way around it. I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a series of tweets from Greg Flugaur (aka, the Dude of Minnesota) saying basically that if 5 or more teams leave the Big 12, the GOR will not stop them.

The GOR basically says that the member universities sell to the Big 12 conference whatever rights are necessary for the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference's agreements with ESPN and Fox. The conference members retain the right to all other events. So, if Texas is playing Kansas in Kansas, the rights to that game belong to the Big 12 conference if ESPN/Fox decide to telecast it or to Kansas (home team) if ESPN/Fox decide not to.

So what happens if the ESPN and Fox media deals with the Conference terminate for any reason? The answer is that because the Conference has no more obligations under it's media deals, the member schools get to keep the rights to all events - the GOR becomes meaningless.

There's been lots of discussion today on other boards about how 5 teams could leave the Big 12 and the GOR would not be a problem. I can easily see how that could be true.

ESPN/Fox almost certainly built into the conference media deals early termination rights to protect themselves. I don't think anyone knows the specifics because the media deals are not public. The ESPN and Fox contracts are with the conference, not the schools, so they are beyond the reach of state Freedom of Information acts.

I think posters have identified one early termination event - dissolution of the conference. Contracts typically give one party to a contract the right to terminate if the other party goes bankrupt or dissolves, so I assume ESPN/Fox would have a termination right in that event.

I can certainly see ESPN/Fox also wanting to terminate if Texas and Oklahoma left or, if todays' tweets from Greg Flugaur are correct, any combination of teams leaving that causes only 5 or fewer teams to be left in the Big 12. ESPN/Fox certainly would have also reserved the right to consent to new teams. If I am ESPN and Fox, I certainly don't want to continue paying the conference $200 million a year (or whatever it is at the time) and get the rights to a Tech/BYU game as a replacement for Texas/Tech and or a Houston/OSU instead of a OU/OSU game. I want the right to terminate the contract.

So what Flugaur is saying is not far fetched. There may well be a backdoor 'out' of the conference for Texas and Oklahoma. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Texas certainly would have considered the possibility, when it was proposing the GOR, that it may want to leave. It would have been ironic for the GOR, which Texas wanted to tie up teams in the Big 12, to wind up being the handcuffs keeping Texas in the Big 12 if it later wanted to leave. Giving ESPN/Fox the right to terminate the conference media deal, and as a result eliminate the GOR, would have accomplished Texas goal.
07-26-2015 09:54 PM
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

I hand thought for some time, and suggested to the conference office, that we consider just that. We want AAU schools and in the South there are some really fine privates that classify. If the SEC started a second conference for privates and included them on all of the sports schedules to help them raise athletic funds we could segregate such a group but share an Academic alliance with them.

Duke, Miami, Wake Forest, Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame
T.C.U., Rice, S.M.U., Tulane, Tulsa, Vanderbilt

That's 12 that could be scheduled with ACC, SEC, and Big 12 schools and form an academic alliance with the same that would rival anything the CIC can claim.
07-26-2015 09:54 PM
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RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 09:54 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 12:00 AM)JRsec Wrote:  1. There is a report tonight, that I have yet to substantiate, that a legal team is challenging the GOR as it pertains to Public State funded Universities and whether they by the very nature may even participate in a Grant of Rights. If true then that raises a lot of issues that could result from a ruling either way. I'll be interested to see who hired this legal team if indeed it is true.

2. If it is true movement could come sooner and could come from many different fronts. The ACC could suffer losses, the Big 12 could as well, but so could any conference with Public institutions.

3. The whole process is following the pattern of Missouri's move to the SEC. So it is at least plausible. I upgrade that to likely given the activity surrounding both Oklahoma and some SEC member schools.


That's about it right now. It looks real, feels real, but has not been confirmed.

it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

JR, I don't know about the legal team you've mentioned, but it seems to me to be a long shot argument. Courts are not very receptive to the argument that a party can knowingly sign a contract and then plead that they didn't have the power to sign.

I think the GOR is solid. It's a grant of property rights, kind of like renting out your house for 10 years. You can't show up 5 years later and say "I hereby un-rent this house." I don't know of any legal theory that allows a university to 'unsell' something it sold.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no way around it. I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a series of tweets from Greg Flugaur (aka, the Dude of Minnesota) saying basically that if 5 or more teams leave the Big 12, the GOR will not stop them.

The GOR basically says that the member universities sell to the Big 12 conference whatever rights are necessary for the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference's agreements with ESPN and Fox. The conference members retain the right to all other events. So, if Texas is playing Kansas in Kansas, the rights to that game belong to the Big 12 conference if ESPN/Fox decide to telecast it or to Kansas (home team) if ESPN/Fox decide not to.

So what happens if the ESPN and Fox media deals with the Conference terminate for any reason? The answer is that because the Conference has no more obligations under it's media deals, the member schools get to keep the rights to all events - the GOR becomes meaningless.

There's been lots of discussion today on other boards about how 5 teams could leave the Big 12 and the GOR would not be a problem. I can easily see how that could be true.

ESPN/Fox almost certainly built into the conference media deals early termination rights to protect themselves. I don't think anyone knows the specifics because the media deals are not public. The ESPN and Fox contracts are with the conference, not the schools, so they are beyond the reach of state Freedom of Information acts.

I think posters have identified one early termination event - dissolution of the conference. Contracts typically give one party to a contract the right to terminate if the other party goes bankrupt or dissolves, so I assume ESPN/Fox would have a termination right in that event.

I can certainly see ESPN/Fox also wanting to terminate if Texas and Oklahoma left or, if todays' tweets from Greg Flugaur are correct, any combination of teams leaving that causes only 5 or fewer teams to be left in the Big 12. ESPN/Fox certainly would have also reserved the right to consent to new teams. If I am ESPN and Fox, I certainly don't want to continue paying the conference $200 million a year (or whatever it is at the time) and get the rights to a Tech/BYU game as a replacement for Texas/Tech and or a Houston/OSU instead of a OU/OSU game. I want the right to terminate the contract.

So what Flugaur is saying is not far fetched. There may well be a backdoor 'out' of the conference for Texas and Oklahoma. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Texas certainly would have considered the possibility, when it was proposing the GOR, that it may want to leave. It would have been ironic for the GOR, which Texas wanted to tie up teams in the Big 12, to wind up being the handcuffs keeping Texas in the Big 12 if it later wanted to leave. Giving ESPN/Fox the right to terminate the conference media deal, and as a result eliminate the GOR, would have accomplished Texas goal.

The above was speculation of another rumor. How much credence to give it is an entirely other matter. But as for Fluguar's remarks they are out of step with the Big 12 GOR which permits under NCAA rules the right for a conference relegated to less than the required number of schools a year in which to add back to at least the specified 8 members. Once that is accomplished all GOR penalties are payable to the conference membership in full. If the networks refuse to renegotiate for a lower rate of payout for the new membership they simply pay out the previous established amounts as contracted. If they do renegotiate the reduction is merely then claimable in a damage suit against the departed members.

I'm afraid that once again Fluguar is full of it. I've taken to just creating one name for all of those hacks. Tuxedo Dude M.H. Fluguar a twitter hit junkie who like P.T. Barnum finds a sucker every minute.
07-26-2015 10:01 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:54 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  it is highly unlikely any ACC team will end up in big 12.

That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

JR, I don't know about the legal team you've mentioned, but it seems to me to be a long shot argument. Courts are not very receptive to the argument that a party can knowingly sign a contract and then plead that they didn't have the power to sign.

I think the GOR is solid. It's a grant of property rights, kind of like renting out your house for 10 years. You can't show up 5 years later and say "I hereby un-rent this house." I don't know of any legal theory that allows a university to 'unsell' something it sold.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no way around it. I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a series of tweets from Greg Flugaur (aka, the Dude of Minnesota) saying basically that if 5 or more teams leave the Big 12, the GOR will not stop them.

The GOR basically says that the member universities sell to the Big 12 conference whatever rights are necessary for the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference's agreements with ESPN and Fox. The conference members retain the right to all other events. So, if Texas is playing Kansas in Kansas, the rights to that game belong to the Big 12 conference if ESPN/Fox decide to telecast it or to Kansas (home team) if ESPN/Fox decide not to.

So what happens if the ESPN and Fox media deals with the Conference terminate for any reason? The answer is that because the Conference has no more obligations under it's media deals, the member schools get to keep the rights to all events - the GOR becomes meaningless.

There's been lots of discussion today on other boards about how 5 teams could leave the Big 12 and the GOR would not be a problem. I can easily see how that could be true.

ESPN/Fox almost certainly built into the conference media deals early termination rights to protect themselves. I don't think anyone knows the specifics because the media deals are not public. The ESPN and Fox contracts are with the conference, not the schools, so they are beyond the reach of state Freedom of Information acts.

I think posters have identified one early termination event - dissolution of the conference. Contracts typically give one party to a contract the right to terminate if the other party goes bankrupt or dissolves, so I assume ESPN/Fox would have a termination right in that event.

I can certainly see ESPN/Fox also wanting to terminate if Texas and Oklahoma left or, if todays' tweets from Greg Flugaur are correct, any combination of teams leaving that causes only 5 or fewer teams to be left in the Big 12. ESPN/Fox certainly would have also reserved the right to consent to new teams. If I am ESPN and Fox, I certainly don't want to continue paying the conference $200 million a year (or whatever it is at the time) and get the rights to a Tech/BYU game as a replacement for Texas/Tech and or a Houston/OSU instead of a OU/OSU game. I want the right to terminate the contract.

So what Flugaur is saying is not far fetched. There may well be a backdoor 'out' of the conference for Texas and Oklahoma. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Texas certainly would have considered the possibility, when it was proposing the GOR, that it may want to leave. It would have been ironic for the GOR, which Texas wanted to tie up teams in the Big 12, to wind up being the handcuffs keeping Texas in the Big 12 if it later wanted to leave. Giving ESPN/Fox the right to terminate the conference media deal, and as a result eliminate the GOR, would have accomplished Texas goal.

The above was speculation of another rumor. How much credence to give it is an entirely other matter. But as for Fluguar's remarks they are out of step with the Big 12 GOR which permits under NCAA rules the right for a conference relegated to less than the required number of schools a year in which to add back to at least the specified 8 members. Once that is accomplished all GOR penalties are payable to the conference membership in full. If the networks refuse to renegotiate for a lower rate of payout for the new membership they simply pay out the previous established amounts as contracted. If they do renegotiate the reduction is merely then claimable in a damage suit against the departed members.

I'm afraid that once again Fluguar is full of it. I've taken to just creating one name for all of those hacks. Tuxedo Dude M.H. Fluguar a twitter hit junkie who like P.T. Barnum finds a sucker every minute.

JR, you're confusing two concepts. NCAA rules may well give a conference time to go back up to the minimum number - but that would only relate to whether the conference retains its status under NCAA rules.

The GOR says that it continues to bind schools that leave the conference - but remember the basic rule in the GOR is that schools give up only what is necessary to allow the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference media deals.

The relevant language would be in the conference media contracts. ESPN/Fox can certainly negotiate to include a provision that if the conference goes below 6 members, ESPN/Fox can terminate the media contract regardless of NCAA rules relating to conference size. They can also contractually require ESPN/Fox's consent to any new teams for purposes of determining whether they will continue to be contractually bound to pay the conference, regardless of the NCAA rules.

Parties to a contract can agree on any term (assuming it's not illegal) and nothing prevents ESPN/Fox from negotiating whatever termination rights they and the Big 12 can agree on. Whether Flugaur has good info or not, who knows, but his scenario clearly could work and the GOR would not be an impediment.
07-26-2015 10:39 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 10:39 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:54 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 08:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  That wasn't the point of the post. Stay with the thread when making comments. The premise is that the state schools may not be able to legally sign a GOR. We'll see if anything comes of this. My point is that if this did prove to be true then it would be anything goes for state schools.

This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

JR, I don't know about the legal team you've mentioned, but it seems to me to be a long shot argument. Courts are not very receptive to the argument that a party can knowingly sign a contract and then plead that they didn't have the power to sign.

I think the GOR is solid. It's a grant of property rights, kind of like renting out your house for 10 years. You can't show up 5 years later and say "I hereby un-rent this house." I don't know of any legal theory that allows a university to 'unsell' something it sold.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no way around it. I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a series of tweets from Greg Flugaur (aka, the Dude of Minnesota) saying basically that if 5 or more teams leave the Big 12, the GOR will not stop them.

The GOR basically says that the member universities sell to the Big 12 conference whatever rights are necessary for the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference's agreements with ESPN and Fox. The conference members retain the right to all other events. So, if Texas is playing Kansas in Kansas, the rights to that game belong to the Big 12 conference if ESPN/Fox decide to telecast it or to Kansas (home team) if ESPN/Fox decide not to.

So what happens if the ESPN and Fox media deals with the Conference terminate for any reason? The answer is that because the Conference has no more obligations under it's media deals, the member schools get to keep the rights to all events - the GOR becomes meaningless.

There's been lots of discussion today on other boards about how 5 teams could leave the Big 12 and the GOR would not be a problem. I can easily see how that could be true.

ESPN/Fox almost certainly built into the conference media deals early termination rights to protect themselves. I don't think anyone knows the specifics because the media deals are not public. The ESPN and Fox contracts are with the conference, not the schools, so they are beyond the reach of state Freedom of Information acts.

I think posters have identified one early termination event - dissolution of the conference. Contracts typically give one party to a contract the right to terminate if the other party goes bankrupt or dissolves, so I assume ESPN/Fox would have a termination right in that event.

I can certainly see ESPN/Fox also wanting to terminate if Texas and Oklahoma left or, if todays' tweets from Greg Flugaur are correct, any combination of teams leaving that causes only 5 or fewer teams to be left in the Big 12. ESPN/Fox certainly would have also reserved the right to consent to new teams. If I am ESPN and Fox, I certainly don't want to continue paying the conference $200 million a year (or whatever it is at the time) and get the rights to a Tech/BYU game as a replacement for Texas/Tech and or a Houston/OSU instead of a OU/OSU game. I want the right to terminate the contract.

So what Flugaur is saying is not far fetched. There may well be a backdoor 'out' of the conference for Texas and Oklahoma. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Texas certainly would have considered the possibility, when it was proposing the GOR, that it may want to leave. It would have been ironic for the GOR, which Texas wanted to tie up teams in the Big 12, to wind up being the handcuffs keeping Texas in the Big 12 if it later wanted to leave. Giving ESPN/Fox the right to terminate the conference media deal, and as a result eliminate the GOR, would have accomplished Texas goal.

The above was speculation of another rumor. How much credence to give it is an entirely other matter. But as for Fluguar's remarks they are out of step with the Big 12 GOR which permits under NCAA rules the right for a conference relegated to less than the required number of schools a year in which to add back to at least the specified 8 members. Once that is accomplished all GOR penalties are payable to the conference membership in full. If the networks refuse to renegotiate for a lower rate of payout for the new membership they simply pay out the previous established amounts as contracted. If they do renegotiate the reduction is merely then claimable in a damage suit against the departed members.

I'm afraid that once again Fluguar is full of it. I've taken to just creating one name for all of those hacks. Tuxedo Dude M.H. Fluguar a twitter hit junkie who like P.T. Barnum finds a sucker every minute.

JR, you're confusing two concepts. NCAA rules may well give a conference time to go back up to the minimum number - but that would only relate to whether the conference retains its status under NCAA rules.

The GOR says that it continues to bind schools that leave the conference - but remember the basic rule in the GOR is that schools give up only what is necessary to allow the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference media deals.

The relevant language would be in the conference media contracts. ESPN/Fox can certainly negotiate to include a provision that if the conference goes below 6 members, ESPN/Fox can terminate the media contract regardless of NCAA rules relating to conference size. They can also contractually require ESPN/Fox's consent to any new teams for purposes of determining whether they will continue to be contractually bound to pay the conference, regardless of the NCAA rules.

Parties to a contract can agree on any term (assuming it's not illegal) and nothing prevents ESPN/Fox from negotiating whatever termination rights they and the Big 12 can agree on. Whether Flugaur has good info or not, who knows, but his scenario clearly could work and the GOR would not be an impediment.

Very interesting. Two different interpretations of this in one night from two attorneys on two different boards. The other was a Baylor attorney who was interpreting the Big 12 Contract and GOR. I'm not saying you are wrong here either. You could well be right. Suffice it to say it's far from over. I can tell you that Oklahoma has been in talks with the SEC via Missouri. How far along they are I'm not sure about. They have at least applied for membership or they wouldn't be having the in depth talks about finances, legalities, etc. That doesn't mean that they have a membership offer yet, but at this stage they could have. So things are quite interesting and the timelines are still quite unclear.
07-26-2015 11:20 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 11:20 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 10:39 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:54 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-26-2015 09:26 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  This is an interesting twist.from the usual "privates get left out" ideas on here. Though I would certainly be in favor of a.Magnolia league.

JR, I don't know about the legal team you've mentioned, but it seems to me to be a long shot argument. Courts are not very receptive to the argument that a party can knowingly sign a contract and then plead that they didn't have the power to sign.

I think the GOR is solid. It's a grant of property rights, kind of like renting out your house for 10 years. You can't show up 5 years later and say "I hereby un-rent this house." I don't know of any legal theory that allows a university to 'unsell' something it sold.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no way around it. I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a series of tweets from Greg Flugaur (aka, the Dude of Minnesota) saying basically that if 5 or more teams leave the Big 12, the GOR will not stop them.

The GOR basically says that the member universities sell to the Big 12 conference whatever rights are necessary for the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference's agreements with ESPN and Fox. The conference members retain the right to all other events. So, if Texas is playing Kansas in Kansas, the rights to that game belong to the Big 12 conference if ESPN/Fox decide to telecast it or to Kansas (home team) if ESPN/Fox decide not to.

So what happens if the ESPN and Fox media deals with the Conference terminate for any reason? The answer is that because the Conference has no more obligations under it's media deals, the member schools get to keep the rights to all events - the GOR becomes meaningless.

There's been lots of discussion today on other boards about how 5 teams could leave the Big 12 and the GOR would not be a problem. I can easily see how that could be true.

ESPN/Fox almost certainly built into the conference media deals early termination rights to protect themselves. I don't think anyone knows the specifics because the media deals are not public. The ESPN and Fox contracts are with the conference, not the schools, so they are beyond the reach of state Freedom of Information acts.

I think posters have identified one early termination event - dissolution of the conference. Contracts typically give one party to a contract the right to terminate if the other party goes bankrupt or dissolves, so I assume ESPN/Fox would have a termination right in that event.

I can certainly see ESPN/Fox also wanting to terminate if Texas and Oklahoma left or, if todays' tweets from Greg Flugaur are correct, any combination of teams leaving that causes only 5 or fewer teams to be left in the Big 12. ESPN/Fox certainly would have also reserved the right to consent to new teams. If I am ESPN and Fox, I certainly don't want to continue paying the conference $200 million a year (or whatever it is at the time) and get the rights to a Tech/BYU game as a replacement for Texas/Tech and or a Houston/OSU instead of a OU/OSU game. I want the right to terminate the contract.

So what Flugaur is saying is not far fetched. There may well be a backdoor 'out' of the conference for Texas and Oklahoma. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Texas certainly would have considered the possibility, when it was proposing the GOR, that it may want to leave. It would have been ironic for the GOR, which Texas wanted to tie up teams in the Big 12, to wind up being the handcuffs keeping Texas in the Big 12 if it later wanted to leave. Giving ESPN/Fox the right to terminate the conference media deal, and as a result eliminate the GOR, would have accomplished Texas goal.

The above was speculation of another rumor. How much credence to give it is an entirely other matter. But as for Fluguar's remarks they are out of step with the Big 12 GOR which permits under NCAA rules the right for a conference relegated to less than the required number of schools a year in which to add back to at least the specified 8 members. Once that is accomplished all GOR penalties are payable to the conference membership in full. If the networks refuse to renegotiate for a lower rate of payout for the new membership they simply pay out the previous established amounts as contracted. If they do renegotiate the reduction is merely then claimable in a damage suit against the departed members.

I'm afraid that once again Fluguar is full of it. I've taken to just creating one name for all of those hacks. Tuxedo Dude M.H. Fluguar a twitter hit junkie who like P.T. Barnum finds a sucker every minute.

JR, you're confusing two concepts. NCAA rules may well give a conference time to go back up to the minimum number - but that would only relate to whether the conference retains its status under NCAA rules.

The GOR says that it continues to bind schools that leave the conference - but remember the basic rule in the GOR is that schools give up only what is necessary to allow the conference to meet its contractual obligations under the conference media deals.

The relevant language would be in the conference media contracts. ESPN/Fox can certainly negotiate to include a provision that if the conference goes below 6 members, ESPN/Fox can terminate the media contract regardless of NCAA rules relating to conference size. They can also contractually require ESPN/Fox's consent to any new teams for purposes of determining whether they will continue to be contractually bound to pay the conference, regardless of the NCAA rules.

Parties to a contract can agree on any term (assuming it's not illegal) and nothing prevents ESPN/Fox from negotiating whatever termination rights they and the Big 12 can agree on. Whether Flugaur has good info or not, who knows, but his scenario clearly could work and the GOR would not be an impediment.

Very interesting. Two different interpretations of this in one night from two attorneys on two different boards. The other was a Baylor attorney who was interpreting the Big 12 Contract and GOR. I'm not saying you are wrong here either. You could well be right. Suffice it to say it's far from over. I can tell you that Oklahoma has been in talks with the SEC via Missouri. How far along they are I'm not sure about. They have at least applied for membership or they wouldn't be having the in depth talks about finances, legalities, etc. That doesn't mean that they have a membership offer yet, but at this stage they could have. So things are quite interesting and the timelines are still quite unclear.

Is the Baylor attorney tcb on Landthieves, post #684? He just didn't think it through. His post assumes he knows how the contractual provisions of the media agreements work, but I don't think anyone knows it. Here's what he said:

"If 5 leave and the Big 12 is one short of the NCAA rule of 6 teams minimum for a conference, the conference can add whomever it wants for 6 and does not absolutely need permission of the networks for the addition."

That's true for purposes of the NCAA but it's irrelevant for purposes of the ESPN/Fox media deal. The Big 12 can add whoever it wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean ESPN/Fox has to keep paying - they could have insisted on a termination right.

"The Big 12 can then reap the financial windfall of the GoR for the departed schools because it will continue as a functioning conference (but it will not last long as a P5 conference). The GoR will still be in force and will cause huge financial harm to the departing members."

That's true, but only if the ESPN/Fox agreements remain in place. If ESPN/Fox have the right to terminate, and exercise that right, then his analysis is incorrect.

He may be right, but if so, then ESPN/Fox made a huge mistake and I find it hard to believe their high priced legal talent didn't see that scenario coming.

By the way, I tried several times to register on Landthieves and join the discussion but for some reason I Keep getting rejected. Maybe with H1 and the Nebraskafan guy they think they already have enough B1G supporters!!
07-26-2015 11:53 PM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #16
Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?
07-27-2015 09:49 AM
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Post: #17
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

This scenario depends upon ESPN and FOX being willing to maintain P5 level payments to the remaining members including new additions. The Big 12 would probably go back to 10 or maybe 12 with a CCG.

If ESPN and FOX move 5 teams then the networks have all the leverage as to whether or not the remaining members get P5 payments in the future. At that point, they should be willing to rescind any right they might have to claim damages because they will want to stay relevant in the future.
07-27-2015 02:34 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.
07-27-2015 06:56 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

Okay so where do they all go?
07-27-2015 07:10 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 07:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

Okay so where do they all go?

I have already said that, multiple times, and you hate the answer that you know I am going to give. So why ask?
07-27-2015 07:13 PM
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