(07-23-2015 05:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The SWAC has abstained for some time probably for the lack of being competitive combined with the scheduling of the playoffs versus the title game and Bayou Classic. The MEAC has just now joined them.

That is the reason. The Bayou Classic is held during the FCS playoffs making them ineligible to participate in the FCS playoff.

Y'all know you have to pay the NCAA, for all intents and purposes, to compete in the FCS playoffs?

HBCUs do well at the gate relative to FCS and low-major basketball schools in large part because they have loyal alumni. Their problem is generating future alumni.

Some of them should also consider dropping to Division II. Especially in the Mid-Atlantic, most of the MEAC schools still have historical rivalries with CIAA schools. Norfolk State's biggest crowds in school history pretty much all came during Labor Day weekend games against Virginia State, and N.C. A&T and N.C. Central have tons of history with half the league. The CIAA basketball tournament also does much better at the box office than the MEAC tournament. So it probably wouldn't hurt attendance for those schools; hell, it might go up with those rivalries revitalized, and they'd probably get the same recruits for a better shot at championships.

(07-24-2015 12:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There's a difference between surviving FCS on a meager budget and HBCU's doing what they can to remain open, let alone relevant. Look what happened to Morris Brown in Atlanta. Like I said, merge some of these schools, most of them were created as separate but equal institutions anyways.

Merging might make sense in some cases, but in many, the problem isn't the schools themselves but the political climate. E.g., at Grambling, they've suffered a 59% cut in state funding the past 8 years, thanks to the Tea Party politics of Governor Jindal.

If the next Governor is a little more sane, than Grambling will have a chance to prove that it can make it on its own, academically and athletically, rather than being cut to pieces by the state.

(07-24-2015 01:43 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  HBCUs do well at the gate relative to FCS and low-major basketball schools in large part because they have loyal alumni. Their problem is generating future alumni.

Some of them should also consider dropping to Division II. Especially in the Mid-Atlantic, most of the MEAC schools still have historical rivalries with CIAA schools. Norfolk State's biggest crowds in school history pretty much all came during Labor Day weekend games against Virginia State, and N.C. A&T and N.C. Central have tons of history with half the league. The CIAA basketball tournament also does much better at the box office than the MEAC tournament. So it probably wouldn't hurt attendance for those schools; hell, it might go up with those rivalries revitalized, and they'd probably get the same recruits for a better shot at championships.

Actually, the majority of HBCU's, especially most of the SWAC, belong in NAIA.

(07-24-2015 02:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 12:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There's a difference between surviving FCS on a meager budget and HBCU's doing what they can to remain open, let alone relevant. Look what happened to Morris Brown in Atlanta. Like I said, merge some of these schools, most of them were created as separate but equal institutions anyways.

Merging might make sense in some cases, but in many, the problem isn't the schools themselves but the political climate. E.g., at Grambling, they've suffered a 59% cut in state funding the past 8 years, thanks to the Tea Party politics of Governor Jindal.

If the next Governor is a little more sane, than Grambling will have a chance to prove that it can make it on its own, academically and athletically, rather than being cut to pieces by the state.

That's beside the point. Other than tradition and alumni pride, there's no reason for some of these schools to keep functioning next to bigger schools that they were often created to be separate from in the first place.

LSU and Southern in Baton Rouge? Redundant. Texas Southern and Prairie View/Houston (a couple miles away)? Redundant. Florida A&M and Florida State in Tallahassee? Redundant.

Like I said, there's tradition and what not but the need for some of these schools is outdated.

(07-27-2015 11:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 01:43 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  HBCUs do well at the gate relative to FCS and low-major basketball schools in large part because they have loyal alumni. Their problem is generating future alumni.

Some of them should also consider dropping to Division II. Especially in the Mid-Atlantic, most of the MEAC schools still have historical rivalries with CIAA schools. Norfolk State's biggest crowds in school history pretty much all came during Labor Day weekend games against Virginia State, and N.C. A&T and N.C. Central have tons of history with half the league. The CIAA basketball tournament also does much better at the box office than the MEAC tournament. So it probably wouldn't hurt attendance for those schools; hell, it might go up with those rivalries revitalized, and they'd probably get the same recruits for a better shot at championships.

Actually, the majority of HBCU's, especially most of the SWAC, belong in NAIA.

(07-24-2015 02:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 12:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There's a difference between surviving FCS on a meager budget and HBCU's doing what they can to remain open, let alone relevant. Look what happened to Morris Brown in Atlanta. Like I said, merge some of these schools, most of them were created as separate but equal institutions anyways.

Merging might make sense in some cases, but in many, the problem isn't the schools themselves but the political climate. E.g., at Grambling, they've suffered a 59% cut in state funding the past 8 years, thanks to the Tea Party politics of Governor Jindal.

If the next Governor is a little more sane, than Grambling will have a chance to prove that it can make it on its own, academically and athletically, rather than being cut to pieces by the state.

That's beside the point. Other than tradition and alumni pride, there's no reason for some of these schools to keep functioning next to bigger schools that they were often created to be separate from in the first place.

LSU and Southern in Baton Rouge? Redundant. Texas Southern and Prairie View/Houston (a couple miles away)? Redundant. Florida A&M and Florida State in Tallahassee? Redundant.

Like I said, there's tradition and what not but the need for some of these schools is outdated.

I don't know .. are Cincy and Xavier redundant? Georgetown and George Washington? USC and UCLA?

Don't say public and private because that's beside the point, redundant is redundant.

(07-27-2015 06:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-27-2015 11:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 01:43 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  HBCUs do well at the gate relative to FCS and low-major basketball schools in large part because they have loyal alumni. Their problem is generating future alumni.

Some of them should also consider dropping to Division II. Especially in the Mid-Atlantic, most of the MEAC schools still have historical rivalries with CIAA schools. Norfolk State's biggest crowds in school history pretty much all came during Labor Day weekend games against Virginia State, and N.C. A&T and N.C. Central have tons of history with half the league. The CIAA basketball tournament also does much better at the box office than the MEAC tournament. So it probably wouldn't hurt attendance for those schools; hell, it might go up with those rivalries revitalized, and they'd probably get the same recruits for a better shot at championships.

Actually, the majority of HBCU's, especially most of the SWAC, belong in NAIA.

(07-24-2015 02:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2015 12:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There's a difference between surviving FCS on a meager budget and HBCU's doing what they can to remain open, let alone relevant. Look what happened to Morris Brown in Atlanta. Like I said, merge some of these schools, most of them were created as separate but equal institutions anyways.

Merging might make sense in some cases, but in many, the problem isn't the schools themselves but the political climate. E.g., at Grambling, they've suffered a 59% cut in state funding the past 8 years, thanks to the Tea Party politics of Governor Jindal.

If the next Governor is a little more sane, than Grambling will have a chance to prove that it can make it on its own, academically and athletically, rather than being cut to pieces by the state.

That's beside the point. Other than tradition and alumni pride, there's no reason for some of these schools to keep functioning next to bigger schools that they were often created to be separate from in the first place.

LSU and Southern in Baton Rouge? Redundant. Texas Southern and Prairie View/Houston (a couple miles away)? Redundant. Florida A&M and Florida State in Tallahassee? Redundant.

Like I said, there's tradition and what not but the need for some of these schools is outdated.

I don't know .. are Cincy and Xavier redundant? Georgetown and George Washington? USC and UCLA?

Don't say public and private because that's beside the point, redundant is redundant.

But public and private does matter because the taxpayers are only footing the bill for one half of that equation rather than two (or more) in the examples C2 brought up.

But if you want to play that game explain why we need both SC State (which is failing both fiscally and academically) and Claflin (private HBCU that's thriving) both in Orangeburg and literally a block apart on US21.

(07-27-2015 06:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't know .. are Cincy and Xavier redundant? Georgetown and George Washington? USC and UCLA?

Don't say public and private because that's beside the point, redundant is redundant.

That's different both in that some of those are public schools versus privately established ones and that none of them were expressly created to be separate schools for minorities and vice versa. USC was not created to be a school for non-whites in response to UCLA. Southern, in turn, was for LSU as best as I can tell without actually doing the research.

What I'm saying is in some cases they can be merged, though much to the chagrin of many alums and students.

(07-24-2015 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 05:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The SWAC has abstained for some time probably for the lack of being competitive combined with the scheduling of the playoffs versus the title game and Bayou Classic. The MEAC has just now joined them.

That is the reason. The Bayou Classic is held during the FCS playoffs making them ineligible to participate in the FCS playoff.

The SWAC title game not the Bayou Classic made the conference ineligible for the playoffs. Prior to the Championship game as long as the Champion was not Southern, Grambling, or Alabama State they would go on the the 1-AA playoffs.

Despite how adamant I've seemed in this thread, I'm split on whether some HBCU's should be merged or integrated. That's a lot of history and tradition to give up. I personally like the status quo but if push came to shove, it may be good for pretty much all parties if some either went away or merged.

(07-29-2015 04:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Despite how adamant I've seemed in this thread, I'm split on whether some HBCU's should be merged or integrated. That's a lot of history and tradition to give up. I personally like the status quo but if push came to shove, it may be good for pretty much all parties if some either went away or merged.

Some politicians in MS made noise about merging the three MS SWAC schools into Jackson State to save money during the recession but the outcry from alums and activists made it impossible to gain any traction. They also tried to merge MS University for Women into MS State, but it also failed.

As much sense as mergers might make, few people have the political will to brave the fallout for the relatively minor benefits that can be gleaned.

Yeah, the alumni groups will never let go and then there would be cries of racism if they tried to merge some of the HBCU's that don't completely fail into other schools (and it wouldn't be race baiting imo but legit frustration and speculation).

It's a paradox because racism is the only reason most HBCU's exist to begin with but now all of them have decades of tradition and rivalries behind them that alums and (future) students won't let go.

So they have bowls in FCS, championships in FBS, 14 in the Big 10, and 10 in the Big 12.

Got it.