To be sure, it would be much more fun as a White Sox fan to have the Brewers as a division rival. I can't muster up the same type of hate for the Tigers or Indians (albeit the Twins grate on me - they have that annoying Duke-type "We play the game the right way!" condescension). However, I can't blame the Brewers at all for moving to the NL from a financial perspective. They really do make a killing with all of those extra games against the Cubs.

(07-21-2015 09:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 05:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  From what I've heard, the Royals were given the first offer because Bud knew that they would turn it down. That way, it wouldn't look like he was blatantly favoring the Brewers. Bud knew that the Brewers would get a significant attendance bump from having multiple series each year against the Cubs and Cardinals, who are close by and have two of the best traveling fan bases in baseball (which has turned out to be exactly the case).

So the Brewers replaced the Twins, Tigers and White Sox with the Cubs and Cardinals. I would say that was an even exchange. The big loss for the Brewers was losing the Yankees from their schedule. There is nothing in the NL that compares, even the Dodgers. Yes, the Brewers attendance jumped up a bit when they moved to the NL, but not that much. It was nowhere near their record at County Stadium. What really help the Brewers attendance was the opening of Miller Park, new ownership and the fielding a competitive team.

I don't know about that. I live in Louisville, so the best reference I can use are the Reds. Not a Reds fan, but when I want to watch some baseball, I either see the Reds, or the Reds AAA team (Louisville Bats). When I go to Reds game (90 mins away) the toughest tickets to get by far are when the Cubs or Cardinals are in town, other than opening day. The thing is, in addition to traveling fans, the Cubs and Cardinals simply have the largest fanbases in the Midwest, as in local fans in opposing cities. There are many, many Cubs fans in every Midwestern city, in large part due to WGN carrying Cubs games on TV, when you could not even see every game of your local team. And the Cardinals radio network covers something like 40% of the US. In addition, the Cardinals are the most dominant NL team, and have been the most successful team over the last half century.

When you play the Yankees, and you are not in the East, yeah the Yankees draw out more of your own fans, and local Yankees fans, but not necessarily fans from NY coming to town to see them (Baltimore, Boston, Philly, Miami, Tampa, that's a different story). When you play the Cubs or the Cardinals, and you are in the NL Central, you get not only more of your own fans to come out, rivalries and such, and the local Cardinals and Cubs fans living in your area, you also get hoards of fans from STL and Chicago driving in to catch a series. I went up to Cincinnati on Sunday to watch a game and it was Cubs Central in Great American. And then the attendance went up on Monday and Tuesday, with the Reds just drew nearly 37,000 fans those days.

The difference between these teams and the AL central teams is, as far as I can tell, The Cubs and STL are the only NL teams (along with the Braves) who have large amounts of fans in other cities (not counting west coast teams). The White Sox and Indians did at one time, but no much anymore. I don't see Twins, Tigers, White Sox, or Indians fans too often in other cities who were not transplants. The Cubs, Cardinals, Braves, and to a lesser extent the Reds... you will find their fans all over the Midwest.

Time to think about an MLB team in Havana, Cuba.

(07-22-2015 10:27 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Time to think about an MLB team in Havana, Cuba.

Could see a Havana team when Cuba actually respect civil and propetry rights. Give it a generation or more for standards of living to rise and Americans make it a place for second homes, like Costa Rica.

(07-22-2015 04:44 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 10:27 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Time to think about an MLB team in Havana, Cuba.

Could see a Havana team when Cuba actually respect civil and propetry rights. Give it a generation or more for standards of living to rise and Americans make it a place for second homes, like Costa Rica.

Its better to have a team in Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic. Both have populations that are baseball crazy. The fortunate thing about having a team in either location is they are only about 120 miles apart from each other and can be the 'local' team for both countries if not the whole Caribbean.

Or/And
Mexico City.

(07-21-2015 10:49 AM)MU88 Wrote:  No one really wanted to move 97. Baseball made the decision that the team should come from the American League Central. KC was offered first and they declined. Brewers were up next and they accepted. Minnesota was next in line. There was some financial benefit since NL teams don't have to pay a DH. Brewers fans, especially the older ones, were excited for the move since they were a National League city for many years with the Braves. By the way, the Brewers usually draw more fans per capita than any team in baseball. The crowd support in Milwaukee is very good, averaging over 32,000 per game this year despite the crappy product on the field.

I don't think people realize how tough it is to fill a major league park for 81 games. Very few people are going to drive an hour in April or September, while school is in session, for a Tuesday night game against a last place team. And yet, that is exactly what has to happen. Charlotte would be a tough market for MLB. Yes, there are a lot of people within an hour or two of the city, but downtown Charlotte is relatively small. No one is driving from Virginia on a school night to see the Phillies. Weekday night games will be a challenge. Further, once the novelty wears off, will fans keep showing up night after night?

In order to succeed long term in a city like Norfolk, Charlotte, Portland or Las Vegas, attending baseball games needs to be part of the culture. You need things like civic groups, churches, rec programs, gyms, etc in the metro area planning baseball outings. Its not as easy as simply having a lot of people in an area. Miami has a lot of baseball fans, but no one goes to the games. Tampa still hasn't figured out how to get fans to the park.

Good points. Cincy and St. Louis are examples of how baseball has become a major identity of the cities. KC is doing well after finally making the playoffs and WS and is another small market. Pittsburgh is doing very well. Granted that Pittsburgh and Cincy have had baseball 100+ years and have the culture. KC and St. Louis less but still baseball a very long time. If Miami can ever get stable ownership, they would draw much better than presently, but presently they still struggle to draw decent attendance for weekday games unless Fernandez is pitching. The history with him pitching, weekday or weekend is 30k+ in attendance.

(07-21-2015 11:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 09:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 05:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 10:49 AM)MU88 Wrote:  No one really wanted to move 97. Baseball made the decision that the team should come from the American League Central. KC was offered first and they declined. Brewers were up next and they accepted. Minnesota was next in line. There was some financial benefit since NL teams don't have to pay a DH. Brewers fans, especially the older ones, were excited for the move since they were a National League city for many years with the Braves. By the way, the Brewers usually draw more fans per capita than any team in baseball. The crowd support in Milwaukee is very good, averaging over 32,000 per game this year despite the crappy product on the field.

From what I've heard, the Royals were given the first offer because Bud knew that they would turn it down. That way, it wouldn't look like he was blatantly favoring the Brewers. Bud knew that the Brewers would get a significant attendance bump from having multiple series each year against the Cubs and Cardinals, who are close by and have two of the best traveling fan bases in baseball (which has turned out to be exactly the case).

So the Brewers replaced the Twins, Tigers and White Sox with the Cubs and Cardinals. I would say that was an even exchange. The big loss for the Brewers was losing the Yankees from their schedule. There is nothing in the NL that compares, even the Dodgers. Yes, the Brewers attendance jumped up a bit when they moved to the NL, but not that much. It was nowhere near their record at County Stadium. What really help the Brewers attendance was the opening of Miller Park, new ownership and the fielding a competitive team.

The Cubs are a bigger draw than all of them in Milwaukee (even more than the Yankees). You can see the attendance records for the past 15 years - essentially every Cubs/Brewers game is a sellout (or very close to it). Getting 9 or 12 home games per year against them is massive. Granted, that's driven a lot by visiting Cubs fans (similar to how Bulls fans always travel en masse to Bulls/Bucks games), but it's a massive legion. The Cardinals fan base is the same, albeit a bit farther away from Milwaukee. There's no comparison with those two clubs and the traveling fan bases of any of the AL Central teams (and I say that as a massive White Sox fan). The Cubs and Cards are to NL attendance as the Red Sox and Yankees are to AL attendance (much more so than the Dodgers), and Miller Park can be as easy to get to for Cubs fans in Chicago's north suburbs as Wrigley Field itself. No team was going to benefit more than the Brewers from going to the NL (and Bud Selig knew it) - they were moving into a division with the two best traveling fan bases in the league (one of which is only 90 minutes away) instead of being stuck with some of the weakest traveling fan bases in MLB in the AL Central.

The Cards and Cubs fans show in big numbers in Cincinnati, Houston and Atlanta. No other NL team has nearly as many fans in opposing ballparks. The Mets and Reds are a distant 3rd and 4th.

(07-22-2015 06:20 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 11:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 09:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 05:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 10:49 AM)MU88 Wrote:  No one really wanted to move 97. Baseball made the decision that the team should come from the American League Central. KC was offered first and they declined. Brewers were up next and they accepted. Minnesota was next in line. There was some financial benefit since NL teams don't have to pay a DH. Brewers fans, especially the older ones, were excited for the move since they were a National League city for many years with the Braves. By the way, the Brewers usually draw more fans per capita than any team in baseball. The crowd support in Milwaukee is very good, averaging over 32,000 per game this year despite the crappy product on the field.

From what I've heard, the Royals were given the first offer because Bud knew that they would turn it down. That way, it wouldn't look like he was blatantly favoring the Brewers. Bud knew that the Brewers would get a significant attendance bump from having multiple series each year against the Cubs and Cardinals, who are close by and have two of the best traveling fan bases in baseball (which has turned out to be exactly the case).

So the Brewers replaced the Twins, Tigers and White Sox with the Cubs and Cardinals. I would say that was an even exchange. The big loss for the Brewers was losing the Yankees from their schedule. There is nothing in the NL that compares, even the Dodgers. Yes, the Brewers attendance jumped up a bit when they moved to the NL, but not that much. It was nowhere near their record at County Stadium. What really help the Brewers attendance was the opening of Miller Park, new ownership and the fielding a competitive team.

The Cubs are a bigger draw than all of them in Milwaukee (even more than the Yankees). You can see the attendance records for the past 15 years - essentially every Cubs/Brewers game is a sellout (or very close to it). Getting 9 or 12 home games per year against them is massive. Granted, that's driven a lot by visiting Cubs fans (similar to how Bulls fans always travel en masse to Bulls/Bucks games), but it's a massive legion. The Cardinals fan base is the same, albeit a bit farther away from Milwaukee. There's no comparison with those two clubs and the traveling fan bases of any of the AL Central teams (and I say that as a massive White Sox fan). The Cubs and Cards are to NL attendance as the Red Sox and Yankees are to AL attendance (much more so than the Dodgers), and Miller Park can be as easy to get to for Cubs fans in Chicago's north suburbs as Wrigley Field itself. No team was going to benefit more than the Brewers from going to the NL (and Bud Selig knew it) - they were moving into a division with the two best traveling fan bases in the league (one of which is only 90 minutes away) instead of being stuck with some of the weakest traveling fan bases in MLB in the AL Central.

The Cards and Cubs fans show in big numbers in Cincinnati, Houston and Atlanta. No other NL team has nearly as many fans in opposing ballparks. The Mets and Reds are a distant 3rd and 4th.

I've seen the Dodgers fans take over in San Diego, Arizona and to a lesser extent Colorado. They also used to be a pretty big draw in New York too but not sure if that is still the case. Pretty sure Dodger Stadium is the only baseball field left in which the capacity is over 50k

Jackson

There might still be some Dodger fans in Brooklyn.

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  [quote='bullet' pid='12218793' dateline='1437607231']
I've seen the Dodgers fans take over in San Diego, Arizona and to a lesser extent Colorado. They also used to be a pretty big draw in New York too but not sure if that is still the case. Pretty sure Dodger Stadium is the only baseball field left in which the capacity is over 50k

Jackson

If you take away the tarps, I'd imagine Oakland does. Camden Yards holds a bit over 50k as well, As I remember many a 50k game there. Probably turner field as well, as well as whatever skydome is called. Maybe Coors field and Yankee Stadium as well.

(07-23-2015 12:22 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  [quote='bullet' pid='12218793' dateline='1437607231']
I've seen the Dodgers fans take over in San Diego, Arizona and to a lesser extent Colorado. They also used to be a pretty big draw in New York too but not sure if that is still the case. Pretty sure Dodger Stadium is the only baseball field left in which the capacity is over 50k

Jackson

If you take away the tarps, I'd imagine Oakland does. Camden Yards holds a bit over 50k as well, As I remember many a 50k game there. Probably turner field as well, as well as whatever skydome is called. Maybe Coors field and Yankee Stadium as well.

Looks like Colorado and Atlanta are a tick above 50k and the Yankees are a tick below. Old Yankee Staduim could have held that kind of crowd with no problem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...y_capacity

Jackson

(07-21-2015 11:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Cubs are a bigger draw than all of them in Milwaukee (even more than the Yankees). You can see the attendance records for the past 15 years - essentially every Cubs/Brewers game is a sellout (or very close to it). Getting 9 or 12 home games per year against them is massive. Granted, that's driven a lot by visiting Cubs fans (similar to how Bulls fans always travel en masse to Bulls/Bucks games), but it's a massive legion. The Cardinals fan base is the same, albeit a bit farther away from Milwaukee. There's no comparison with those two clubs and the traveling fan bases of any of the AL Central teams (and I say that as a massive White Sox fan). The Cubs and Cards are to NL attendance as the Red Sox and Yankees are to AL attendance (much more so than the Dodgers), and Miller Park can be as easy to get to for Cubs fans in Chicago's north suburbs as Wrigley Field itself. No team was going to benefit more than the Brewers from going to the NL (and Bud Selig knew it) - they were moving into a division with the two best traveling fan bases in the league (one of which is only 90 minutes away) instead of being stuck with some of the weakest traveling fan bases in MLB in the AL Central.

Yankees series outdrew the 2 Cubs series last year in Milwaukee. They drew about 127,000 for a three game series. They are biggest draw for Milwaukee. Cubs draw well because half the crown is from Chicago. Yankees draw well with Brewers fans. That said, the Twins series drew almost as many fans this year as the one Cubs series so far. Twins are a great draw in Milwaukee. Always have been. Twins series easily out drew the Cardinals series this year and had numbers higher than all of last year's Cardinals series too. Sox are a different animal. They pack it in when they are winning, but the fans don't travel well. Worst behaved fans in baseball too. It has gotten to the point that alot of Brewers fans with families stay home when the Sox come to down because of the bad behavior.

Ideally, to maximize attendance, the Brewers would play both Chicago teams, the Twins, the Cardinals and the Yankees. But, such a lineup is virtually impossible. After that, it all depends on who is playing well. Dodgers, Giants and Red Sox may be slightly better draws that the other teams, but the difference isn't significant in Milwaukee.

(07-23-2015 01:50 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 11:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Cubs are a bigger draw than all of them in Milwaukee (even more than the Yankees). You can see the attendance records for the past 15 years - essentially every Cubs/Brewers game is a sellout (or very close to it).

Yankees series outdrew the 2 Cubs series last year in Milwaukee. They drew about 127,000 for a three game series. They are biggest draw for Milwaukee.

Not really an apt comparison because the Yankees only play there every few years, versus the Cubs playing there 9 times every year. The Cubs and Cardinals, for example, have similar affects on American League teams for the same reasons.

(07-23-2015 02:19 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-23-2015 01:50 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(07-21-2015 11:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Cubs are a bigger draw than all of them in Milwaukee (even more than the Yankees). You can see the attendance records for the past 15 years - essentially every Cubs/Brewers game is a sellout (or very close to it).

Yankees series outdrew the 2 Cubs series last year in Milwaukee. They drew about 127,000 for a three game series. They are biggest draw for Milwaukee.

Not really an apt comparison because the Yankees only play there every few years, versus the Cubs playing there 9 times every year. The Cubs and Cardinals, for example, have similar affects on American League teams for the same reasons.

Yankees always drew well in Milwaukee, even back before the move to the NL. Bushville still strikes a chord with Milwaukee fans, even though no one outside of Milwaukee has any idea what that means.