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B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
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Collegiate Black Man Offline
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B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
Though I am truly saddened by the state of our Basketball Program, I am perplexed by the assertion of many on here that says that its time to focus on football. Many are asserting that Bowen "doesn't care" about the state of the B-ball program and that there won't be the same investment in the coaching salary for the next B-ball coach.

All of this in the name of positioning Memphis to get a bid to the Big XII or the ACC, citing football investment and improvement as our calling card. That would be a shame because of at least two reasons:
  • Football is very expensive to maintain competitiveness. This requires an alumni and donor base that Memphis doesn't quite have. I'll admit Fred Smith and Pitt Hyde are great contributors, but to really compete and be profitable in college football, the investment is quite ridiculous. I do not see how Memphis could nor should pull it off.
  • Why destroy what has worked for Memphis for generations-Basketball? Basketball is played by more youth in the Memphis area and is more amenable to the social-economic status of most Memphians. To emphasize football in a large-urban town would require a significant investment in the football farm system of pop warner and middle/high schools. Memphis has too many schools to realistically expect good investment in one or two. How many high school programs in Memphis are really up to par in terms of providing talent for a truly competitive D-1 team (Whitehaven, White Station, Ridgeway?, private schools like MUS and CBHS, but that's about it).

I have worked with area youth and though many play football, the level of football coaching and support is not up to par with b-ball at this time. Right now, the best B-ball players in the city still want to go to Memphis. Can't say the same for Football, though it is changing, slowly .

I just don't see why football investment means an end to B-ball support. Why can't there be support for both?
07-08-2015 09:30 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
b-ball train wreck is not good for anybody
07-08-2015 09:47 AM
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tiger2000 Offline
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
In situations like these, I just ask myself "WWRCD?" (What would RC do?)
07-08-2015 09:49 AM
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oruvoice Online
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 09:30 AM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  Though I am truly saddened by the state of our Basketball Program, I am perplexed by the assertion of many on here that says that its time to focus on football. Many are asserting that Bowen "doesn't care" about the state of the B-ball program and that there won't be the same investment in the coaching salary for the next B-ball coach.

All of this in the name of positioning Memphis to get a bid to the Big XII or the ACC, citing football investment and improvement as our calling card. That would be a shame because of at least two reasons:
  • Football is very expensive to maintain competitiveness. This requires an alumni and donor base that Memphis doesn't quite have. I'll admit Fred Smith and Pitt Hyde are great contributors, but to really compete and be profitable in college football, the investment is quite ridiculous. I do not see how Memphis could nor should pull it off.
  • Why destroy what has worked for Memphis for generations-Basketball? Basketball is played by more youth in the Memphis area and is more amenable to the social-economic status of most Memphians. To emphasize football in a large-urban town would require a significant investment in the football farm system of pop warner and middle/high schools. Memphis has too many schools to realistically expect good investment in one or two. How many high school programs in Memphis are really up to par in terms of providing talent for a truly competitive D-1 team (Whitehaven, White Station, Ridgeway?, private schools like MUS and CBHS, but that's about it).

I have worked with area youth and though many play football, the level of football coaching and support is not up to par with b-ball at this time. Right now, the best B-ball players in the city still want to go to Memphis. Can't say the same for Football, though it is changing, slowly .

I just don't see why football investment means an end to B-ball support. Why can't there be support for both?

You can support both.

But, you have to ask yourself a question...do you want to be Louisville or do you want to be DePaul?

Focus your main efforts on football and you have a 'chance' to be at the big-boy table. Focus your main efforts on basketball and eventually football will die, along with any hopes of being relevant, in the future.

What the 'basketball first' crowd fails to realize is that a time is coming where basketball will become a mid-major (at best), if football doesn't get us into the P5.

Your argument that "we've been basketball first in the past", is becoming less valid with each passing day. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it will always be that way. As the gulf grows wider between the have's & have not's, it will be harder and harder to be competitive in basketball, if we aren't in the P5.

If you want Tiger hoops to be BIG-TIME, then you better hope and pray that football succeeds, in a big way!!
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 10:02 AM by oruvoice.)
07-08-2015 10:00 AM
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George Can'tStandYa Offline
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Post: #5
RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
Gettong into a P5 is all that matters. Look at the differences in payouts. You cannot hope to compete over the next decade with that kind of disadvantage. Football gets you into P5, basketball does not. It's that simple. If we get into a P5 then the natural basketball advantages you speak of will allow us to ramp up quickly. If we don't get in nothing will save us. Those hometown kids might want to play now, but in 5 years when a P5 can offer a much better "stipend", there heads will trump their hearts. This is not about winning an NCAA championship. This is about survival. Basketball can not help you there.
07-08-2015 10:15 AM
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Collegiate Black Man Offline
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:00 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  You can support both.

But, you have to ask yourself a question...do you want to be Louisville or do you want to be DePaul?

Focus your main efforts on football and you have a 'chance' to be at the big-boy table. Focus your main efforts on basketball and eventually football will die, along with any hopes of being relevant, in the future.

What the 'basketball first' crowd fails to realize is that a time is coming where basketball will become a mid-major (at best), if football doesn't get us into the P5.

Your argument that "we've been basketball first in the past", is becoming less valid with each passing day. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it will always be that way. As the gulf grows wider between the have's & have not's, it will be harder and harder to be competitive in basketball, if we aren't in the P5.

If you want Tiger hoops to be BIG-TIME, then you better hope and pray that football succeeds, in a big way!!

The bolded parts of your reply need some support. History and economics tells a different story. Case in point University of Kentucky.
UK built its sports brand on Basketball. Football has never been a calling card there. Yet, they thrive. Now, they are in the SEC, but the SEC has grown over the years. It hasn't always been the behemoth it is now.

The Big East also showed that Basketball can be marketable. What did them in was not focusing on Basketball, but greed. For the size and location of the schools in the Big East, they were much better suited to continue to focus on B-ball. They had a great TV contract with ESPN. Were they rolling in the dough like the SEC and the PAC-12? No, but they were doing very well without having to break the bank investing in football. That is the model that has proven to be successful in Memphis.

Basketball can be quite profitable with a fraction of the investment football requires (there are football assistant coaches at Alabama that make millions of dollar a year, that is insane!!!). Are we trying to compete with that, when we could do very well sticking with what works?

This push for the Big XII and such is not necessary and is driven by greed. Sure, being in the Big XII will bring in More money, but at what expense? A bird in the hand is better than 2 in a bush because it may take too much to get those in the bush.
07-08-2015 10:16 AM
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Post: #7
RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
Tv Money trumps history 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. The Big East used to be part of the P6, now it's a P5. As you said UK can afford to be basketba focused because of SEC. Your argument assumes that things are the same as they were 10 years ago. They aren't.
07-08-2015 10:26 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
Absolutely not. If TSF donations go down football will suffer as well. I don't know why people think otherwise
07-08-2015 10:28 AM
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oruvoice Online
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:16 AM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 10:00 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  You can support both.

But, you have to ask yourself a question...do you want to be Louisville or do you want to be DePaul?

Focus your main efforts on football and you have a 'chance' to be at the big-boy table. Focus your main efforts on basketball and eventually football will die, along with any hopes of being relevant, in the future.

What the 'basketball first' crowd fails to realize is that a time is coming where basketball will become a mid-major (at best), if football doesn't get us into the P5.

Your argument that "we've been basketball first in the past", is becoming less valid with each passing day. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it will always be that way. As the gulf grows wider between the have's & have not's, it will be harder and harder to be competitive in basketball, if we aren't in the P5.

If you want Tiger hoops to be BIG-TIME, then you better hope and pray that football succeeds, in a big way!!

The bolded parts of your reply need some support. History and economics tells a different story. Case in point University of Kentucky.
UK built its sports brand on Basketball. Football has never been a calling card there. Yet, they thrive. Now, they are in the SEC, but the SEC has grown over the years. It hasn't always been the behemoth it is now.

The Big East also showed that Basketball can be marketable. What did them in was not focusing on Basketball, but greed. For the size and location of the schools in the Big East, they were much better suited to continue to focus on B-ball. They had a great TV contract with ESPN. Were they rolling in the dough like the SEC and the PAC-12? No, but they were doing very well without having to break the bank investing in football. That is the model that has proven to be successful in Memphis.

Basketball can be quite profitable with a fraction of the investment football requires (there are football assistant coaches at Alabama that make millions of dollar a year, that is insane!!!). Are we trying to compete with that, when we could do very well sticking with what works?

This push for the Big XII and such is not necessary and is driven by greed. Sure, being in the Big XII will bring in More money, but at what expense? A bird in the hand is better than 2 in a bush because it may take too much to get those in the bush.

Kentucky was/is already in the SEC. Apples and Oranges, my friend.

Big East basketball isn't where it was 20-30 years ago and will only continue to gradually decline. This isn't 1985 any more.

The push for the Big 12 (or other P5) is completely necessary. Your points hold some merit, but I'm afraid you are too focused on the past. The train is about to leave the station and football is our ONLY ticket to get on it. If we miss it, then I'm telling you our basketball program will suffer. We won't be able to continue to compete at the highest level...in ANY sport.

George Can't Stand Ya' also has it right.
07-08-2015 10:29 AM
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Collegiate Black Man Offline
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:15 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  Gettong into a P5 is all that matters. Look at the differences in payouts. You cannot hope to compete over the next decade with that kind of disadvantage. Football gets you into P5, basketball does not. It's that simple. If we get into a P5 then the natural basketball advantages you speak of will allow us to ramp up quickly. If we don't get in nothing will save us. Those hometown kids might want to play now, but in 5 years when a P5 can offer a much better "stipend", there heads will trump their hearts. This is not about winning an NCAA championship. This is about survival. Basketball can not help you there.

The conference payouts come at a price. If Fuente keeps winning, you better believe either we are gonna have to pony up the big bucks, or watch him walk. The head coach at U of MS makes $4.5 million/ year. His assistants make up to $900 K. While one would say the payouts for the conference could cover it, you also have to consider that the non-revenue sports have to be invested in as well. Also, these SEC schools (except Vandy) are in rural college towns. Memphis has the Grizz and other things that people can do, so to think that the civic support for paying a college football coach at a public school about $5 million a year will be had is a stretch. And even with all of that revenue from the SEC, Teams like Auburn, Arkansas and Kentucky spend ridiculous amounts of money to field sub par football teams.

Besides, college football isn't as profitable as we might think. I just don't see the reason to just gut the Basketball program in order to chase the golden goose of a P-5 Conference. It just isn't worth it.
07-08-2015 10:43 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:43 AM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 10:15 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  Gettong into a P5 is all that matters. Look at the differences in payouts. You cannot hope to compete over the next decade with that kind of disadvantage. Football gets you into P5, basketball does not. It's that simple. If we get into a P5 then the natural basketball advantages you speak of will allow us to ramp up quickly. If we don't get in nothing will save us. Those hometown kids might want to play now, but in 5 years when a P5 can offer a much better "stipend", there heads will trump their hearts. This is not about winning an NCAA championship. This is about survival. Basketball can not help you there.

The conference payouts come at a price. If Fuente keeps winning, you better believe either we are gonna have to pony up the big bucks, or watch him walk. The head coach at U of MS makes $4.5 million/ year. His assistants make up to $900 K. While one would say the payouts for the conference could cover it, you also have to consider that the non-revenue sports have to be invested in as well. Also, these SEC schools (except Vandy) are in rural college towns. Memphis has the Grizz and other things that people can do, so to think that the civic support for paying a college football coach at a public school about $5 million a year will be had is a stretch. And even with all of that revenue from the SEC, Teams like Auburn, Arkansas and Kentucky spend ridiculous amounts of money to field sub par football teams.

Besides, college football isn't as profitable as we might think. I just don't see the reason to just gut the Basketball program in order to chase the golden goose of a P-5 Conference. It just isn't worth it.

Who said 'gut the basketball program'?
07-08-2015 10:57 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:29 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Kentucky was/is already in the SEC. Apples and Oranges, my friend.

Big East basketball isn't where it was 20-30 years ago and will only continue to gradually decline. This isn't 1985 any more.

The push for the Big 12 (or other P5) is completely necessary. Your points hold some merit, but I'm afraid you are too focused on the past. The train is about to leave the station and football is our ONLY ticket to get on it. If we miss it, then I'm telling you our basketball program will suffer. We won't be able to continue to compete at the highest level...in ANY sport.

George Can't Stand Ya' also has it right.

I think most who support this push for P-5 are looking into an uncertain future. There are several factors that must be considered.
  • At some point, the issue of amateurism will be visited by the Feds. Too much money is being made off of the backs of so called "amateur" athletes. the profitability of this model is in the balance once the feds start probing the rules around amateurism.
  • Very few College football programs are profitable, even with the P-5 TV money coming in. It is just too expensive to field a competitive team. Because of Title IX, you have to take that money and invest in non-revenue sports also. Again, is all of this investment, and wrecking the B-ball program, worth it?
  • College football just doesn't do as well in metropolitan urban cities as it does in rural college towns. One of the reasons why the Big East did so well was that basketball is much more marketable in urban areas than college football. You won't have the support for paying the college football coach $5 million/yr in Memphis like you would in Knoxville.

While much of my analysis does look at history, I also noted that the P-5 push is about greed. Thus, it is bound to come apart as more people realize the game being played by these conferences and the TV networks. The SEC benefits from the ESPN hype machine more than anything else (no way Mississippi State was the no. 1 football team in the country for 5 weeks last year, all ESPN hype). This is all a house of cards that will eventually crumble, and we are about t sacrifice a great B-ball program at its altar.
07-08-2015 10:58 AM
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George Can'tStandYa Offline
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Post: #13
RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
It's not gutting, just prioritizing. Our basketball coach STILL makes more than our football coach. Again, if you take a decade long view, the order in which one puts the priorities becomes all too clear. When an SEC team makes 25 million in payouts compared to our 2 or whatever (all numbers made up), you cannot keep up. When a big draw basketball game (UK v Indiana a few years ago) draws less viewers than some lower tier bowl game. The gig is up. Memphis went all in in basketball last time around, and we did about as well as one could do, and it did not work. Why would we double down on that strategy?
07-08-2015 11:00 AM
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Collegiate Black Man Offline
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 11:00 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  It's not gutting, just prioritizing. Our basketball coach STILL makes more than our football coach. Again, if you take a decade long view, the order in which one puts the priorities becomes all too clear. When an SEC team makes 25 million in payouts compared to our 2 or whatever (all numbers made up), you cannot keep up. When a big draw basketball game (UK v Indiana a few years ago) draws less viewers than some lower tier bowl game. The gig is up. Memphis went all in in basketball last time around, and we did about as well as one could do, and it did not work. Why would we double down on that strategy?

If the $25 mil comes at a cost of $30 mil, but the $2 mil is clean profit, I don't see how the football push is worth it. Again, Nick Saban makes $7 mil/ yr. Do you think that would fly in Memphis?
07-08-2015 11:32 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:15 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  Gettong into a P5 is all that matters. Look at the differences in payouts. You cannot hope to compete over the next decade with that kind of disadvantage. Football gets you into P5, basketball does not. It's that simple. If we get into a P5 then the natural basketball advantages you speak of will allow us to ramp up quickly. If we don't get in nothing will save us. Those hometown kids might want to play now, but in 5 years when a P5 can offer a much better "stipend", there heads will trump their hearts. This is not about winning an NCAA championship. This is about survival. Basketball can not help you there.

100% true. This whole Nichols thing is simply summer entertainment fodder, it matters not one whit in expansion talks.
07-08-2015 11:38 AM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 10:16 AM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 10:00 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  You can support both.

But, you have to ask yourself a question...do you want to be Louisville or do you want to be DePaul?

Focus your main efforts on football and you have a 'chance' to be at the big-boy table. Focus your main efforts on basketball and eventually football will die, along with any hopes of being relevant, in the future.

What the 'basketball first' crowd fails to realize is that a time is coming where basketball will become a mid-major (at best), if football doesn't get us into the P5.

Your argument that "we've been basketball first in the past", is becoming less valid with each passing day. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it will always be that way. As the gulf grows wider between the have's & have not's, it will be harder and harder to be competitive in basketball, if we aren't in the P5.

If you want Tiger hoops to be BIG-TIME, then you better hope and pray that football succeeds, in a big way!!

The bolded parts of your reply need some support. History and economics tells a different story. Case in point University of Kentucky.
UK built its sports brand on Basketball. Football has never been a calling card there. Yet, they thrive. Now, they are in the SEC, but the SEC has grown over the years. It hasn't always been the behemoth it is now.

The Big East also showed that Basketball can be marketable. What did them in was not focusing on Basketball, but greed. For the size and location of the schools in the Big East, they were much better suited to continue to focus on B-ball. They had a great TV contract with ESPN. Were they rolling in the dough like the SEC and the PAC-12? No, but they were doing very well without having to break the bank investing in football. That is the model that has proven to be successful in Memphis.

Basketball can be quite profitable with a fraction of the investment football requires (there are football assistant coaches at Alabama that make millions of dollar a year, that is insane!!!). Are we trying to compete with that, when we could do very well sticking with what works?

This push for the Big XII and such is not necessary and is driven by greed. Sure, being in the Big XII will bring in More money, but at what expense? A bird in the hand is better than 2 in a bush because it may take too much to get those in the bush.

holy **** this is dumb.
07-08-2015 11:53 AM
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Post: #17
RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 11:32 AM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 11:00 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  It's not gutting, just prioritizing. Our basketball coach STILL makes more than our football coach. Again, if you take a decade long view, the order in which one puts the priorities becomes all too clear. When an SEC team makes 25 million in payouts compared to our 2 or whatever (all numbers made up), you cannot keep up. When a big draw basketball game (UK v Indiana a few years ago) draws less viewers than some lower tier bowl game. The gig is up. Memphis went all in in basketball last time around, and we did about as well as one could do, and it did not work. Why would we double down on that strategy?

If the $25 mil comes at a cost of $30 mil, but the $2 mil is clean profit, I don't see how the football push is worth it. Again, Nick Saban makes $7 mil/ yr. Do you think that would fly in Memphis?

That is not how payout work. We spend, they spend. When they can outspend you by a factor of ten...you lose. Memphis will always have a basketball team, but CBU and Rhodes do too. It is entirely conceivable, some would argue probable that give the disparity a few years to accumulate and Memphis will be well behind UT in basketball. Those are the real stakes. And it has already been proven that basketball cannot get us there. Again, this is PROVEN. We have no choice but to ride football as it is the only horse in the barn.
07-08-2015 12:00 PM
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Post: #18
RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 11:00 AM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  It's not gutting, just prioritizing. Our basketball coach STILL makes more than our football coach. Again, if you take a decade long view, the order in which one puts the priorities becomes all too clear. When an SEC team makes 25 million in payouts compared to our 2 or whatever (all numbers made up), you cannot keep up. When a big draw basketball game (UK v Indiana a few years ago) draws less viewers than some lower tier bowl game. The gig is up. Memphis went all in in basketball last time around, and we did about as well as one could do, and it did not work. Why would we double down on that strategy?

And the basketball coach is gutting the BB program. Losing players and support.
07-08-2015 02:21 PM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 12:00 PM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  That is not how payout work. We spend, they spend. When they can outspend you by a factor of ten...you lose. Memphis will always have a basketball team, but CBU and Rhodes do too. It is entirely conceivable, some would argue probable that give the disparity a few years to accumulate and Memphis will be well behind UT in basketball. Those are the real stakes. And it has already been proven that basketball cannot get us there. Again, this is PROVEN. We have no choice but to ride football as it is the only horse in the barn.
Why would they outspend us by a factor of ten when all we are focusing on is the b-ball, and they have the behemoth of competitive D-1 football to fund? Now, I will say that a conference with a good TV contract and a winning program would have to be the norm (Like the Big East had), but Memphis could compete with anybody on the court, in B-ball and spending, if the proper investments are made.
07-08-2015 02:39 PM
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RE: B-Ball Train Wreck Good for F-Ball?
(07-08-2015 02:39 PM)Collegiate Black Man Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:00 PM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  That is not how payout work. We spend, they spend. When they can outspend you by a factor of ten...you lose. Memphis will always have a basketball team, but CBU and Rhodes do too. It is entirely conceivable, some would argue probable that give the disparity a few years to accumulate and Memphis will be well behind UT in basketball. Those are the real stakes. And it has already been proven that basketball cannot get us there. Again, this is PROVEN. We have no choice but to ride football as it is the only horse in the barn.
Why would they outspend us by a factor of ten when all we are focusing on is the b-ball, and they have the behemoth of competitive D-1 football to fund? Now, I will say that a conference with a good TV contract and a winning program would have to be the norm (Like the Big East had), but Memphis could compete with anybody on the court, in B-ball and spending, if the proper investments are made.

Because Bball is not worth nearly as much as football. Eventually the football overages will more than outstrip what a Bball conference could hope to make. Then the players and coaches will go where the action is...for point of reference the SEC has been upgrading the hell out of their basketball coaching resumes. Look for this to continue. I wish you were right and basketball existed in some sort of parity with football, but that world no longer exists. Your plan depends wholly on the tail being able to wag the dog.
07-08-2015 03:39 PM
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