(06-29-2015 02:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And they hate Al Qaida and ISIS too.
I've become less concerned about pissing off Erdogan lately. What has Turkey done for us lately?

The way to handle it would have been to create an independent Kurdistan after the fall of Saddam. Give Schlumberger the Halliburton contract for the region. That gets France onboard. Turkey was begging into the EU at the time. So France, your job is to tell Turkey that backing off on Kurdistan is their ticket to the EU.

Turkey isn't as keen on the EU now, so this idea doesn't have the same leverage as it did then. Biden was actually right about this, you know, a stopped clock and all that.

(06-29-2015 02:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 02:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And they hate Al Qaida and ISIS too.
I've become less concerned about pissing off Erdogan lately. What has Turkey done for us lately?

The way to handle it would have been to create an independent Kurdistan after the fall of Saddam. Give Schlumberger the Halliburton contract for the region. That gets France onboard. Turkey was begging into the EU at the time. So France, your job is to tell Turkey that backing off on Kurdistan is their ticket to the EU.

Turkey isn't as keen on the EU now, so this idea doesn't have the same leverage as it did then. Biden was actually right about this, you know, a stopped clock and all that.

Screw Erdogan for all I care. Its time we stopped pretending Turkey is an ally. Its time we stopped pretending that Erdogan is not hostile to the US and our interests.

Close Encirlik.. Move the air base to Erbil. Institute exit visas and strict interviews for anyone going to Turkey (in order to stop ISIS movement). Suspend Turkey from NATO. They're already undermining it with its purchase of Chinese weapons.

Do it on the down low if needed, but do it.

(06-29-2015 02:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 12:59 PM)No Bull Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 12:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 11:54 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 11:33 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Why should I care about the Kurds?

They don't look like us. To hell with them.

Uh, the Kurds are our only reliable ally in the region.

They are as close to democratic as we can get in the region. They let there women take up arms and fight. They have been a good ally to us in the regioin. Geroge HW Bush screwed them over during the 1st Gulf War. We need to back them and arm them to the teeth... but God how that would piss the Turks off.

And they hate Al Qaida and ISIS too.

I've become less concerned about pissing off Erdogan lately. What has Turkey done for us lately?

Turkey has been a problem since their horsemen first appeared in Asia Minor and Europe. The 1990's situations in the Balkans was directly related to their invasions. They left the region a giant cauldron.

We need to stop pandering to them and recognize the Armenian Genocide.

(06-29-2015 11:16 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It looks like Kurdish gains are spooking them. And they're realizing that if they don't go after ISIS, then they'll very shortly be a fully independent Kurdish state controlling much of its southern border.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

The real fear in this case is that Turkey is really getting involved in Syria in alliance with ISIS. Where ISIS just agrees to pull back from the border so that Turkey can prevent Kurds from seizing those areas and so ISIS can concentrate its forces on the Kurds.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

I have a different read on this. I think that Syria has wanted to step in and attack ISIS head-on, but what has prevented them was US support for the Kurds ... as long as the US supported the Kurds, the Turks would not get involved, and the result was that Kobani was nearly razed to the ground.

ISIS is not the right flavor of Islamist for Turkey, and I think that every established nation sees it is foolish to ally with them.

There's plenty to fear from Turkey, and neither US bases nor EU membership provides any leverage at this point, but throwing more support behind the Kurds may be counterproductive with regards to ISIS's growth. All I think we need at this point is for the Kurds to hold ground. Let Iran and Turkey do the heavy work in getting rid of ISIS... it's ultimately their problem far more than it is theirs, and I don't think we need to subsidize solutions to either one's problems.

(06-29-2015 02:39 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Close Encirlik.. Move the air base to Erbil. Institute exit visas and strict interviews for anyone going to Turkey (in order to stop ISIS movement). Suspend Turkey from NATO. They're already undermining it with its purchase of Chinese weapons.

Is a landlocked non-nation really a viable place for a US Military base, and is the political cost worth establishing one there?

(06-29-2015 03:21 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 11:16 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It looks like Kurdish gains are spooking them. And they're realizing that if they don't go after ISIS, then they'll very shortly be a fully independent Kurdish state controlling much of its southern border.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

The real fear in this case is that Turkey is really getting involved in Syria in alliance with ISIS. Where ISIS just agrees to pull back from the border so that Turkey can prevent Kurds from seizing those areas and so ISIS can concentrate its forces on the Kurds.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

I have a different read on this. I think that Syria has wanted to step in and attack ISIS head-on, but what has prevented them was US support for the Kurds ... as long as the US supported the Kurds, the Turks would not get involved, and the result was that Kobani was nearly razed to the ground.

ISIS is not the right flavor of Islamist for Turkey, and I think that every established nation sees it is foolish to ally with them.

There's plenty to fear from Turkey, and neither US bases nor EU membership provides any leverage at this point, but throwing more support behind the Kurds may be counterproductive with regards to ISIS's growth. All I think we need at this point is for the Kurds to hold ground. Let Iran and Turkey do the heavy work in getting rid of ISIS... it's ultimately their problem far more than it is theirs, and I don't think we need to subsidize solutions to either one's problems.

(06-29-2015 02:39 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Close Encirlik.. Move the air base to Erbil. Institute exit visas and strict interviews for anyone going to Turkey (in order to stop ISIS movement). Suspend Turkey from NATO. They're already undermining it with its purchase of Chinese weapons.

Is a landlocked non-nation really a viable place for a US Military base, and is the political cost worth establishing one there?

Turkey just had an election and the President's party lost parliamentary majority. Will be interesting to see how that impact things going foward. As far as kicking Turkey out of NATO, that ain't gonna happen.

(06-29-2015 03:30 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 03:21 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 11:16 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It looks like Kurdish gains are spooking them. And they're realizing that if they don't go after ISIS, then they'll very shortly be a fully independent Kurdish state controlling much of its southern border.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

The real fear in this case is that Turkey is really getting involved in Syria in alliance with ISIS. Where ISIS just agrees to pull back from the border so that Turkey can prevent Kurds from seizing those areas and so ISIS can concentrate its forces on the Kurds.

Looks like its time for more aid to the Kurds

---

I have a different read on this. I think that Syria has wanted to step in and attack ISIS head-on, but what has prevented them was US support for the Kurds ... as long as the US supported the Kurds, the Turks would not get involved, and the result was that Kobani was nearly razed to the ground.

ISIS is not the right flavor of Islamist for Turkey, and I think that every established nation sees it is foolish to ally with them.

There's plenty to fear from Turkey, and neither US bases nor EU membership provides any leverage at this point, but throwing more support behind the Kurds may be counterproductive with regards to ISIS's growth. All I think we need at this point is for the Kurds to hold ground. Let Iran and Turkey do the heavy work in getting rid of ISIS... it's ultimately their problem far more than it is theirs, and I don't think we need to subsidize solutions to either one's problems.

(06-29-2015 02:39 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Close Encirlik.. Move the air base to Erbil. Institute exit visas and strict interviews for anyone going to Turkey (in order to stop ISIS movement). Suspend Turkey from NATO. They're already undermining it with its purchase of Chinese weapons.

Is a landlocked non-nation really a viable place for a US Military base, and is the political cost worth establishing one there?

Turkey just had an election and the President's party lost parliamentary majority. Will be interesting to see how that impact things going foward. As far as kicking Turkey out of NATO, that ain't gonna happen.

First of all, the value of a base that we are never able to use because the Turks block us from using (as they have) it is dubious at best.

Secondly, I think the impact of the election losses for Erdogan/AKP is to make them more repressive and anti-American..not less.

(06-29-2015 01:52 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 12:32 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 12:18 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 12:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 11:58 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Ok, "care" was the wrong world; however, same could be said about thousands of situations all over the world. The correct question is: why should my tax money be going to provide aid to the Kurds? How is thier situation a threat to our sovereignty?

It's not a threat to our sovereignty. Neither was Desert Storm and we put feet on the ground there.

Out of all the crap we stick our noses in, protecting an entire ethnicity of people, even indirectly, would be among the more honorable.

We weren't $20T in debt when Desert Storm was launched. I would oppose that now as well. I think it is due time to let them sort it out amongst themselves, let a strongman emerge, and deal with the strongman instead of propping up indefinite instability. If we want to be "honorable", we could take in refugees.

One thing that has drastically changed since Desert Storm is that Americans are beginning to see that we simply can not afford to be the worlds policeman...and...we shouldn't be. I fully admit I bought into the Iraq nonsense. I learned my lesson. I will not support such schit ever again without a DIRECT declaration of war.

Same boat here. To be fair to myself, with regards to Iraq, 9/11 happened and a relatively new theory was tested to try to democratize the region out of terrorism (albeit under the misleading WMD pretenses) and failed. We gave neoconservatism a shot and it didn't work. Would be nice if we could file it under "lessons learned" and stop double and triple downing on it. Time to try something else. If it fails, it fails, but insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I don't see how a couple of terms of semi-isolationism could produce much worse of a result than the last 14 years.

I agree. Other than free trade and diplomacy....These countries are meaningless to me.

(06-29-2015 04:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 03:30 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Turkey just had an election and the President's party lost parliamentary majority. Will be interesting to see how that impact things going foward. As far as kicking Turkey out of NATO, that ain't gonna happen.

First of all, the value of a base that we are never able to use because the Turks block us from using (as they have) it is dubious at best.

Secondly, I think the impact of the election losses for Erdogan/AKP is to make them more repressive and anti-American..not less.

I agree on both counts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Obama has been trying to push Turkey into invading Syria for months and months. For the US to now react in a punitive way... well that would be typical both of traditional US policy and Obama's modus operandi. But, it's still a stupid way to act.