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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 03:02 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Isn't it possible that the form of conservatism that many seek just isn't attainable anymore? In all seriousness, there was a lot to like about conservatism but this country is too diverse nowadays for us to go back to 1950s America.

We could and should go back to an America like the 1950's, when we weren't as dependent on the government. Economic growth would take off, making everyone's life better. That was a freer, more prosperous America.

But the Liberals have attached so many people to the government teat that it may not be possible to go back. Once people get hooked on government benefits, it's nearly impossible to get them off.
06-27-2015 04:56 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Thoughts
Where we are headed now is 1950s Europe. And that's a disaster.

I could actually live with 2010s Europe. But that requires learning the lessons that Europe learned in the 1960s and 1970s, specifically that the 1% aren't going to pay for everything for everybody, and you can't make them, so you need a different plan.
06-27-2015 04:59 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #43
Re: RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 04:56 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  [quote='Fitbud' pid='12158818' dateline='1435435328']
Isn't it possible that the form of conservatism that many seek just isn't attainable anymore? In all seriousness, there was a lot to like about conservatism but this country is too diverse nowadays for us to go back to 1950s America.

We could and should go back to an America like the 1950's, when we weren't as dependent on the government. Economic growth would take off, making everyone's life better. That was a freer, more prosperous America.

Yes but an entire segment of the country was excluded from that form of America. You can't go back to that America without putting everyone on equal footing.
06-27-2015 05:00 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 05:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 04:56 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 03:02 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Isn't it possible that the form of conservatism that many seek just isn't attainable anymore? In all seriousness, there was a lot to like about conservatism but this country is too diverse nowadays for us to go back to 1950s America.
We could and should go back to an America like the 1950's, when we weren't as dependent on the government. Economic growth would take off, making everyone's life better. That was a freer, more prosperous America.
Yes but an entire segment of the country was excluded from that form of America. You can't go back to that America without putting everyone on equal footing.

Which is exactly why I laid it out specifically just the way I did. Give everybody a reasonable shot (can't make it precisely equal, too many variables, but can make it reasonable for everyone) and then get the hell out of the way.
06-27-2015 05:05 PM
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dfarr Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 05:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 04:56 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  [quote='Fitbud' pid='12158818' dateline='1435435328']
Isn't it possible that the form of conservatism that many seek just isn't attainable anymore? In all seriousness, there was a lot to like about conservatism but this country is too diverse nowadays for us to go back to 1950s America.

We could and should go back to an America like the 1950's, when we weren't as dependent on the government. Economic growth would take off, making everyone's life better. That was a freer, more prosperous America.

Yes but an entire segment of the country was excluded from that form of America. You can't go back to that America without putting everyone on equal footing.

I'm assuming you're talking about blacks and segregation? You'd be mostly wrong about that. In Birmingham back during segregation there were two economies: a black and a white one.

I think he's referring to the America where being on welfare was something people hid and only used during the hardest of times instead of figuring out how to manipulate the system. An America where neighbors helped each other and looked out for each other's kids instead of calling the cops when a kid is seen playing unsupervised. An America where people coulsnt buy houses they couldn't afford because the banks weren't encouraged to give bad loans.
06-27-2015 05:09 PM
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Ole Blue Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Thoughts
I think the era of bad banking is one of the main reasons we are in such sucky economic times. Just IMO.
06-27-2015 05:23 PM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 05:09 PM)dfarr Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 05:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 04:56 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  [quote='Fitbud' pid='12158818' dateline='1435435328']
Isn't it possible that the form of conservatism that many seek just isn't attainable anymore? In all seriousness, there was a lot to like about conservatism but this country is too diverse nowadays for us to go back to 1950s America.

We could and should go back to an America like the 1950's, when we weren't as dependent on the government. Economic growth would take off, making everyone's life better. That was a freer, more prosperous America.

Yes but an entire segment of the country was excluded from that form of America. You can't go back to that America without putting everyone on equal footing.

I'm assuming you're talking about blacks and segregation? You'd be mostly wrong about that. In Birmingham back during segregation there were two economies: a black and a white one.

I think he's referring to the America where being on welfare was something people hid and only used during the hardest of times instead of figuring out how to manipulate the system. An America where neighbors helped each other and looked out for each other's kids instead of calling the cops when a kid is seen playing unsupervised. An America where people coulsnt buy houses they couldn't afford because the banks weren't encouraged to give bad loans.

Yes, of course. The America of the 1950's is preferable to the crap we have today. But we could do without the bad aspects like segregation.
06-27-2015 05:52 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 05:23 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  I think the era of bad banking is one of the main reasons we are in such sucky economic times. Just IMO.

It is for sure one of the dominos that have fallen. Ironically though....If you are an investor? This schitty economy has been wonderful. My portfolio has benefited handsomely during the Obama administration.
06-27-2015 09:02 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 04:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 03:05 PM)PlainTiger Wrote:  Of course I am not going to win, but I am not going to sacrifice my ideology just because the majority is against it. I am just speaking my opinion.
I would like you to explain how the country is headed for economic ruin because I oppose killing babies.

The country is not headed for economic crisis as a direct consequence of your opposing abortion, and that's not what I am saying. So trying to force me to make that connection is unreasonable.

But there is a strong indirect connection. You're putting your effort into a fight that you know you can't win. Any good general knows that you can't win a war sacrificing soldiers for unattainable objectives. You're letting an unwinnable fight distract your efforts from a winnable--and necessary--battle. And the insistence of many like you on absolute compliance on your one issue is handing elections to people who are screwing up the other issue.

God grant me the courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. Focus on the things you can change, not the ones you can't.

I think there's a fairly good chance that a woman who has an abortion is going to burn in hell. But I can't stop her legally here on earth. That's going to have to be between her and her maker on the day of judgement.

And what is going to be between me and my maker on judgment day is, I opposed abortion. I am very comfortable with that position, no matter what other negative consequences arise because of it. I'd rather go down being who I am, than stand up as a hypocrite.

You are one of the most respected posters on this board, and with good reason. You have certainly made some good points here. I thank you for your civil response.
06-27-2015 09:09 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 09:09 PM)PlainTiger Wrote:  And what is going to be between me and my maker on judgment day is, I opposed abortion. I am very comfortable with that position, no matter what other negative consequences arise because of it. I'd rather go down being who I am, than stand up as a hypocrite.
You are one of the most respected posters on this board, and with good reason. You have certainly made some good points here. I thank you for your civil response.

Fair enough, and I respect your position as well.
06-27-2015 09:17 PM
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Ole Blue Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 09:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 05:23 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  I think the era of bad banking is one of the main reasons we are in such sucky economic times. Just IMO.

It is for sure one of the dominos that have fallen. Ironically though....If you are an investor? This schitty economy has been wonderful. My portfolio has benefited handsomely during the Obama administration.

You're exactly right. Even tho I am not that fond of the policies in place, my investment accounts are.
06-27-2015 10:20 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 09:35 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  To my republican friends:

The battle over abortion is over. You lost. 42 years ago. We’re not going back.

The battle over gay marriage is over. You lost. We’re not going back.

Don’t spend the next 42 years playing Don Quixote and tilting at lost windmills the way you have spent the last 42. We have some real problems out there that somebody needs to get busy addressing, and it might as well be you. It’s time for you to use that courage God gave you to change the things that can be changed, that serenity God gave you to accept the things that can’t be changed, and that wisdom God gave you to know the difference. There are places where we badly need sanity, so turn your efforts toward them:

Obamacare is a train wreck that will inevitably happen, it’s merely a question of when, not if. It combines the worst feature of our old system (health insurance paid by employers) with the worst feature of single-payer/single-provider systems (government bureaucrats replacing the doctor patient relationship in making individual health care decisions). It will ultimately fail because there is no way possible for it to work. It relies on the failed economic notion that you can on the one hand increase demand while on the other hand constrain supply by reducing the amounts paid to suppliers. That has not worked one time ever in all recorded history, and there is no reason to expect it to produce anything but shortages and queues and reduced quality. So why is it that you’ve had six years now and haven’t come up with anything better? I’ll give you a hint. The Bismarck system has given places like France and Germany and Holland and Switzerland far better health care than any single-payer or single-provider system in the world. And unlike single-payer and single-provider, it actually works in countries with large populations. Heritage pointed you that direction in its response to Hillarycare 20 years ago. You should have passed that then, Clinton would have signed it in a heartbeat, and we wouldn’t be having to endure this now. But that’s water under the bridge. If nothing else, hire somebody who speaks French and translate their law and pass it.

Fiscal soundness starts with a balanced budget. So balance it. Not a balanced budget amendment, a balanced budget. That means you’re going to have to increase revenues, cut defense spending, and cut the vast wasteland that are our welfare programs. Revenues should be easy. Do what Europe does, and what Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin recommended. Lower and flatten rates in exchange for cutting out loopholes, and implement a consumption tax. Defense is actually easy too. Armies do two things well—killing people and breaking things. We need a war fighting force, so get rid of everything not related to war fighting. No more nation-building. GWB promised that in 2000, so why did you go 180 degrees the other direction when he and you got into power? You can build a much stronger war fighting force for a lot less money if you simply get rid of everything not related to war fighting. And that includes cutting back Pentagon and consultant levels to the equivalent of what was good enough to win WWII. One more thing, never, ever, ever, ever fight a war that you don’t intend to win. Welfare is the hard one because if you just cut spending for democrat programs, you’re going to get labeled as hard-hearted and mean. But those programs don’t work, so instead of simply spending less on things that don’t work, take a whole new approach. Again, look at Europe where welfare is a safety net and not a redistribution scheme. Enact a few generic programs available to everyone to replace the myriad of focused and means-tested ones that we have now. All that means-testing does is blow up overhead to pay all the gatekeepers, who tend to be socialist sociologist (redundant, I know) bureaucrats that we would be better off without. Pay the money to poor people, and let the PhD bureaucrats go find real jobs, like barista at Starbucks. Do something like Milton Friedman’s negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, and go all in with it instead of half-assed like the EITC. That’s a real growth strategy, unlike the “Bush tax cuts,” and growth will cure just about every economic ailment.

After you took over the House in the 2010 elections, on day 1 in 2011 you should have passed French Bismarck health care and either Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of both (not hard to combine, they both say pretty much the same thing). You would have taken the high ground in the two major debates of the day, and forced Harry Reid and Obama to handle two very hot potatoes. Like abortion and gay rights, that’s water under the bridge, but unlike the other two you can still do something about these things. So do it.

Now to my democrat friends:

Class-warfare demagoguery may be a great way to turn out your base and win elections, but it’s a horrible model for running a country. You’re taking us where Europe tried going in the 1950s and 1960s and it damn near ruined them. They learned their lesson. Today they are more social democratic than socialist, and you need to do the same. What’s the difference between socialist and social democrat? Drop the redistribution mantra. All you’re going to accomplish is the same thing Europe did—driving away investment capital and strangling our economy. Why is it on the one hand you criticize the “rich” and corporations for moving investment and jobs overseas to get lower costs, lower taxes, and less intrusive regulations, but on the other hand you seem to believe that the way to get them back is higher costs, higher taxes, and more intrusive regulations? Are you really stupid enough to believe that has a chance of working? Do you want the economy to fail? Or are you simply so committed to your ideology that you don’t care whether it works or not? You’ve created your permanent underclass of reliable democrat voters. Now it’s time for you to decide whether you really care about helping those people or just want to keep them trapped and voting you into power until you retire. It’s time to quit dividing—no matter how good politics that may be—and start uniting.

Now to both democrats and republicans:

I don’t see either one of you even talking about doing any of the things that we truly need, much less making any moves toward actually doing them. The first one of you that moves in that direction will get my vote. And until one of you makes that move, neither of you will.

The end.

In my mind, you just became the hero so many in this nation crave but will never hear about.

as I read your 21st century magna carta, I broke it down between social, moral, and economic lines.

being a pragmatic soul, I mostly agree in entirety (exceptions regarding defense)

the right needs to let go of obamacare and help amend the cost structure so it becomes manageable/viable TO ALL moving forward....if that means it evolves into a workable system similar to the bismark plan, then so be it.....just make it fiscally manageable

the right needs to ditch all moral arguments 'stat'...they are pointless and cannot be stopped.....work with various interest groups to achieve a working fundamental that is achievable/agreeable.....in the end, it is their choice to live their life.....legislating morality is just a tard mechanism that no longer has value....just let go of it and focus on the real issues (this is where being atheist is an easy plus in decision making)

the benefit of a implementing a consumption based income tax/simplified business tax coupled with eliminating the 'war on drugs' would yield a short term burden while allowing a best and simple practice regarding prospective long term gain to achieve future stabilty

the budget? if clinton could do it....'nuf said

defense is a tricky one to state simply.....my bottom line is don't fight a war or commit troops unless absolutely critical.....that means get the fk out of the raghead shitestorm festival of circle jerks.....let 'em kill each other off or nuke 'em (the last being an obvious no-can-do)

invest in research and hire the best hackers on the planet to combat the next real war

and secure the gawdam southern border for crying out loud

get the illiterate illegals out of this country and begin rebuilding the physical infrastructure using those on welfare to subsidize/supply the labor...if you're going to pay them....make 'em work for it....

...that's enough....I'm certain I pissed off enough by now
(This post was last modified: 06-28-2015 05:20 AM by stinkfist.)
06-28-2015 05:08 AM
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dfarr Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Thoughts
(06-28-2015 05:08 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 09:35 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  To my republican friends:

The battle over abortion is over. You lost. 42 years ago. We’re not going back.

The battle over gay marriage is over. You lost. We’re not going back.

Don’t spend the next 42 years playing Don Quixote and tilting at lost windmills the way you have spent the last 42. We have some real problems out there that somebody needs to get busy addressing, and it might as well be you. It’s time for you to use that courage God gave you to change the things that can be changed, that serenity God gave you to accept the things that can’t be changed, and that wisdom God gave you to know the difference. There are places where we badly need sanity, so turn your efforts toward them:

Obamacare is a train wreck that will inevitably happen, it’s merely a question of when, not if. It combines the worst feature of our old system (health insurance paid by employers) with the worst feature of single-payer/single-provider systems (government bureaucrats replacing the doctor patient relationship in making individual health care decisions). It will ultimately fail because there is no way possible for it to work. It relies on the failed economic notion that you can on the one hand increase demand while on the other hand constrain supply by reducing the amounts paid to suppliers. That has not worked one time ever in all recorded history, and there is no reason to expect it to produce anything but shortages and queues and reduced quality. So why is it that you’ve had six years now and haven’t come up with anything better? I’ll give you a hint. The Bismarck system has given places like France and Germany and Holland and Switzerland far better health care than any single-payer or single-provider system in the world. And unlike single-payer and single-provider, it actually works in countries with large populations. Heritage pointed you that direction in its response to Hillarycare 20 years ago. You should have passed that then, Clinton would have signed it in a heartbeat, and we wouldn’t be having to endure this now. But that’s water under the bridge. If nothing else, hire somebody who speaks French and translate their law and pass it.

Fiscal soundness starts with a balanced budget. So balance it. Not a balanced budget amendment, a balanced budget. That means you’re going to have to increase revenues, cut defense spending, and cut the vast wasteland that are our welfare programs. Revenues should be easy. Do what Europe does, and what Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin recommended. Lower and flatten rates in exchange for cutting out loopholes, and implement a consumption tax. Defense is actually easy too. Armies do two things well—killing people and breaking things. We need a war fighting force, so get rid of everything not related to war fighting. No more nation-building. GWB promised that in 2000, so why did you go 180 degrees the other direction when he and you got into power? You can build a much stronger war fighting force for a lot less money if you simply get rid of everything not related to war fighting. And that includes cutting back Pentagon and consultant levels to the equivalent of what was good enough to win WWII. One more thing, never, ever, ever, ever fight a war that you don’t intend to win. Welfare is the hard one because if you just cut spending for democrat programs, you’re going to get labeled as hard-hearted and mean. But those programs don’t work, so instead of simply spending less on things that don’t work, take a whole new approach. Again, look at Europe where welfare is a safety net and not a redistribution scheme. Enact a few generic programs available to everyone to replace the myriad of focused and means-tested ones that we have now. All that means-testing does is blow up overhead to pay all the gatekeepers, who tend to be socialist sociologist (redundant, I know) bureaucrats that we would be better off without. Pay the money to poor people, and let the PhD bureaucrats go find real jobs, like barista at Starbucks. Do something like Milton Friedman’s negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, and go all in with it instead of half-assed like the EITC. That’s a real growth strategy, unlike the “Bush tax cuts,” and growth will cure just about every economic ailment.

After you took over the House in the 2010 elections, on day 1 in 2011 you should have passed French Bismarck health care and either Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of both (not hard to combine, they both say pretty much the same thing). You would have taken the high ground in the two major debates of the day, and forced Harry Reid and Obama to handle two very hot potatoes. Like abortion and gay rights, that’s water under the bridge, but unlike the other two you can still do something about these things. So do it.

Now to my democrat friends:

Class-warfare demagoguery may be a great way to turn out your base and win elections, but it’s a horrible model for running a country. You’re taking us where Europe tried going in the 1950s and 1960s and it damn near ruined them. They learned their lesson. Today they are more social democratic than socialist, and you need to do the same. What’s the difference between socialist and social democrat? Drop the redistribution mantra. All you’re going to accomplish is the same thing Europe did—driving away investment capital and strangling our economy. Why is it on the one hand you criticize the “rich” and corporations for moving investment and jobs overseas to get lower costs, lower taxes, and less intrusive regulations, but on the other hand you seem to believe that the way to get them back is higher costs, higher taxes, and more intrusive regulations? Are you really stupid enough to believe that has a chance of working? Do you want the economy to fail? Or are you simply so committed to your ideology that you don’t care whether it works or not? You’ve created your permanent underclass of reliable democrat voters. Now it’s time for you to decide whether you really care about helping those people or just want to keep them trapped and voting you into power until you retire. It’s time to quit dividing—no matter how good politics that may be—and start uniting.

Now to both democrats and republicans:

I don’t see either one of you even talking about doing any of the things that we truly need, much less making any moves toward actually doing them. The first one of you that moves in that direction will get my vote. And until one of you makes that move, neither of you will.

The end.

In my mind, you just became the hero so many in this nation crave but will never hear about.

as I read your 21st century magna carta, I broke it down between social, moral, and economic lines.

being a pragmatic soul, I mostly agree in entirety (exceptions regarding defense)

the right needs to let go of obamacare and help amend the cost structure so it becomes manageable/viable TO ALL moving forward....if that means it evolves into a workable system similar to the bismark plan, then so be it.....just make it fiscally manageable

the right needs to ditch all moral arguments 'stat'...they are pointless and cannot be stopped.....work with various interest groups to achieve a working fundamental that is achievable/agreeable.....in the end, it is their choice to live their life.....legislating morality is just a tard mechanism that no longer has value....just let go of it and focus on the real issues (this is where being atheist is an easy plus in decision making)

the benefit of a implementing a consumption based income tax/simplified business tax coupled with eliminating the 'war on drugs' would yield a short term burden while allowing a best and simple practice regarding prospective long term gain to achieve future stabilty

the budget? if clinton could do it....'nuf said

defense is a tricky one to state simply.....my bottom line is don't fight a war or commit troops unless absolutely critical.....that means get the fk out of the raghead shitestorm festival of circle jerks.....let 'em kill each other off or nuke 'em (the last being an obvious no-can-do)

invest in research and hire the best hackers on the planet to combat the next real war

and secure the gawdam southern border for crying out loud

get the illiterate illegals out of this country and begin rebuilding the physical infrastructure using those on welfare to subsidize/supply the labor...if you're going to pay them....make 'em work for it....

...that's enough....I'm certain I pissed off enough by now

That's the most coherent post by you that I've ever seen
06-28-2015 06:53 AM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Thoughts
Agree, a lot of BS debates over the last 40 years. We need to start working on solutions instead of demonizing each other.
06-28-2015 07:26 AM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Thoughts
Demonizing's easy. Solutions are hard.
06-28-2015 07:42 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Thoughts
(06-28-2015 07:42 AM)Smaug Wrote:  Demonizing's easy. Solutions are hard.

The solutions are easy. Having the guts to do what you know you must do is hard. These clowns in Washington are for the most part totally gutless.
06-28-2015 08:48 AM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Thoughts
Going from moral to amoral doesn't seem like a good idea.

IMHO.
06-28-2015 08:52 AM
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RE: Thoughts
[Image: latest?cb=20141011031356]
06-28-2015 10:50 AM
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Post: #59
Re: RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 09:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(06-27-2015 05:23 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  I think the era of bad banking is one of the main reasons we are in such sucky economic times. Just IMO.

It is for sure one of the dominos that have fallen. Ironically though....If you are an investor? This schitty economy has been wonderful. My portfolio has benefited handsomely during the Obama administration.

Exactly. I identify closely with the social conservatism of 1950s America. Unfortunately, as a minority, there was no place in the republican party for my parents. To this day, we tolerate the liberal aspects of the Democratic party over the veiled discrimination of the republican party. It is the lesser of two evils.
(This post was last modified: 06-28-2015 10:57 AM by Fitbud.)
06-28-2015 10:54 AM
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Pellet Offline
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RE: Thoughts
(06-27-2015 04:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think there's a fairly good chance that a woman who has an abortion is going to burn in hell.

The chance that a woman burns in hell for having an abortion is exactly the same as a jihadi actually gets his 72 virgins.

Both are slightly less than the odds that I will have sex with Taylor Swift this afternoon.
06-28-2015 10:58 AM
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