http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

(06-12-2015 06:06 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

(06-12-2015 07:45 PM)Babes boy Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 06:06 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

Nope. Don't think they gave it much thought. They didn't want anything that smacked of establishing a state religion. Even today there are no restrictions on anyone praying in school. I did it all the time before finals.

(06-12-2015 07:45 PM)Babes boy Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 06:06 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

Some of them wouldn't even let some of us attend school.

I think the FF were smart enough to know they were stupid as anyone so instead of designing a government mandated around their own personal thoughts and feelings, they created a living document.


Pretty neat idea, letting future generations have a hand in their own governing.


As for Coach, I don't know if his reasoning was one of legalities or conscious but I personally think he made the right decision. He is no doubt giving up a practice dear to him. Must be like giving up kissing your kids off to school. Bless him. He still gets to walk with the kids to school.

(06-12-2015 09:58 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 07:45 PM)Babes boy Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 06:06 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

Some of them wouldn't even let some of us attend school.

I think the FF were smart enough to know they were stupid as anyone so instead of designing a government mandated around their own personal thoughts and feelings, they created a living document.


Pretty neat idea, letting future generations have a hand in their own governing.


As for Coach, I don't know if his reasoning was one of legalities or conscious but I personally think he made the right decision. He is no doubt giving up a practice dear to him. Must be like giving up kissing your kids off to school. Bless him. He still gets to walk with the kids to school.

(06-12-2015 10:37 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:58 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 07:45 PM)Babes boy Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 06:06 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/524931

Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

Some of them wouldn't even let some of us attend school.

I think the FF were smart enough to know they were stupid as anyone so instead of designing a government mandated around their own personal thoughts and feelings, they created a living document.


Pretty neat idea, letting future generations have a hand in their own governing.


As for Coach, I don't know if his reasoning was one of legalities or conscious but I personally think he made the right decision. He is no doubt giving up a practice dear to him. Must be like giving up kissing your kids off to school. Bless him. He still gets to walk with the kids to school.

I feel he did it, because he feels that a little prayer in lives of his team is important. Is it right? The government says, no. Okay, he will make adjustments based on his teams needs. God bless Matt Campbell.

I agree that they (Campbell, O'Brien, whoever) made the right decision. I suspect that the players can still pray if they choose so long as they take the initiative and it does not have the appearance of a structured institutional sponsored group activity which was a possible concern to some (such as the Wisconsin group) so long as Coach Campbell or any other University official appeared to institute or lead the activity.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and rather than take this to the next level which would most likely have been a court case that would not likely have been decided in UT's favor anyway----but could (would?) have been a major distraction from the upcoming football season which is where the focus should rightly be.

"Tolerance" is rapidly becoming a lost virtue in America which is extremely unfortunate because it is the cornerstone of a truly free society. Still, I will give that Wisconsin group credit in that they asked first before jumping in feet first with a lawsuit.

Quote:Does anyone really believe that the founding fathers did not want us to pray while we were in school?????

No, but they were less religious back then. Plus, school wasn't a necessity back then either and wasn't a focal point of issues. When the religious right came to fruition around WWI at the turn of the 20th century, well, after some decades of getting a foothold in that's when they ruined what would be a line crossed that would be seen by most as a small one and to have to understandably strictly go by the book of separation of religion and Govt.

Quote:I feel he did it, because he feels that a little prayer in lives of his team is important. Is it right? The government says, no

Well, Toledo (and WMU, NIU, etc) IS the govt, that's the issue. I think to have (the some) players do it on their own is key, not to have paid govt officials dictate them, that's all.

(06-13-2015 04:50 PM)T-Town Wrote:  I agree that they (Campbell, O'Brien, whoever) made the right decision. I suspect that the players can still pray if they choose so long as they take the initiative and it does not have the appearance of a structured institutional sponsored group activity which was a possible concern to some (such as the Wisconsin group) so long as Coach Campbell or any other University official appeared to institute or lead the activity.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and rather than take this to the next level which would most likely have been a court case that would not likely have been decided in UT's favor anyway----but could (would?) have been a major distraction from the upcoming football season which is where the focus should rightly be.

"Tolerance" is rapidly becoming a lost virtue in America which is extremely unfortunate because it is the cornerstone of a truly free society. Still, I will give that Wisconsin group credit in that they asked first before jumping in feet first with a lawsuit.

I disagree. I think this story would have developed into positive story about Coach Campbell and the University and MANY people would have respected Coach Campbell and the University for standing UP and against this this small minority group. If we keep backing down from this fight, pretty soon GOD will be removed from all aspects of our culture and our society will continue to decay as a result. Somethings are worth fighting for and this was one fight I would have backed down from.

(06-17-2015 09:26 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-13-2015 04:50 PM)T-Town Wrote:  I agree that they (Campbell, O'Brien, whoever) made the right decision. I suspect that the players can still pray if they choose so long as they take the initiative and it does not have the appearance of a structured institutional sponsored group activity which was a possible concern to some (such as the Wisconsin group) so long as Coach Campbell or any other University official appeared to institute or lead the activity.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and rather than take this to the next level which would most likely have been a court case that would not likely have been decided in UT's favor anyway----but could (would?) have been a major distraction from the upcoming football season which is where the focus should rightly be.

"Tolerance" is rapidly becoming a lost virtue in America which is extremely unfortunate because it is the cornerstone of a truly free society. Still, I will give that Wisconsin group credit in that they asked first before jumping in feet first with a lawsuit.

I disagree. I think this story would have developed into positive story about Coach Campbell and the University and MANY people would have respected Coach Campbell and the University for standing UP and against this this small minority group. If we keep backing down from this fight, pretty soon GOD will be removed from all aspects of our culture and our society will continue to decay as a result. Somethings are worth fighting for and this was one fight I would have backed down from.

Correction...wouldn't have backed down from.

Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

This got a quick little blurb down here on WFNZ Charlotte. The consensus among the radio guys seemed to be that it was BS and that Campbell should have kept on.

(06-17-2015 10:45 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

"Proselytizing"??? is that a real word? and what does it mean?
btw, I'm serious. it looks like one of the words you would see during the national spelling bee on ESPN.

I think it's fancy for "preaching." It got past spell check, so it's a word for something. lol

Quote:Full Definition of PROSELYTIZE
intransitive verb
1: to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2: to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause

(06-17-2015 10:45 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

Very well said. The only thing I would clarify is that the coach can NOT proselytize while in his capacity as coach. That's pretty much what started all this.

(06-18-2015 08:43 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 10:45 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

Very well said. The only thing I would clarify is that the coach can NOT proselytize while in his capacity as coach. That's pretty much what started all this.

What started all this was a small amount of folks with no ties to the university decided to waste everyone's time and money on an issue that was not a problem to those actually involved.

(06-18-2015 08:50 AM)Terry Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 08:43 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 10:45 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

Very well said. The only thing I would clarify is that the coach can NOT proselytize while in his capacity as coach. That's pretty much what started all this.

What started all this was a small amount of folks with no ties to the university decided to waste everyone's time and money on an issue that was not a problem to those actually involved.

Terry, that's a pretty myopic view of this. Just because you can't put the finger on a damaged party doesn't make a wrong right. The group said it was contacted by someone from Toledo.

(06-18-2015 10:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 08:50 AM)Terry Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 08:43 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 10:45 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Never understood the sense behind the decline of civilization due to the "removing God" argument.

How do you "remove" God? Is God a picture on a wall, a ceremony, or faith? A person either has faith or they don't. If God has been "removed" from an institution it's because people with faith left for whatever reason or those people never really had faith.

There is nothing about this ruling that prevents Coach or anyone else from sharing or proselytizing. He can still share and he can still proselytize but on his own time. If a person truly has faith they wish to share, in this country they shouldn't feel they need to have a captured audience in which to do so, not if they truly have faith.

The law protects us from being forced to practice the ceremonies of any faith. This is a GREAT thing. Pressuring some kid who doesn't have that faith or doesn't practice that ceremony to join a prayer circle is not going to make the institution more religious. It's going to make it fake.

Personally, I'd be more scared of someone claiming faith that saw a problem with this ruling than I would of someone with no faith at all.

Very well said. The only thing I would clarify is that the coach can NOT proselytize while in his capacity as coach. That's pretty much what started all this.

What started all this was a small amount of folks with no ties to the university decided to waste everyone's time and money on an issue that was not a problem to those actually involved.

Terry, that's a pretty myopic view of this. Just because you can't put the finger on a damaged party doesn't make a wrong right. The group said it was contacted by someone from Toledo.

Never sad Who..... Is that person real? Easy to lie about.

"myopic view" had no idea I was looking at something as "it is what it is" view.

Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.