(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:41 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 02:53 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 02:42 PM)JMU Wrote:  I am not totally sure from the pictures but it looks like they are building a lopsided stadium like JMU.

honest question, was it wrong of JMU (or would it be wrong of W&M) to build a facility that meets the need of the capacity they have (while having room for expansion if necessary)? Wouldn't it be grossly irresponsible to build 40K seats when you need half that? You wouldn't build a 6,000 sq ft home when you only fill and afford 3,000 would you?

It would absolutely be irresponsible to over-build when it's not needed for the current or future plans. But the way things seem to be skipping along the bottom here it seems to me whatever foresight or anticipation was used to "build for the future" is turning into a bridge to nowhere quick (or I guess a "bridgeforth" to nowhere?).

I have the same concern for the basketball arena. If the current admin is fine with small-time CAA men's basketball that has half the success and half the attendance it used to then I'm certainly not incented to help pay for an arena they'll be hard-pressed to half fill with the current coach and conference. If I was a big donor and gave to Bridgeforth under the guise of FBS I'd be livid. My hope is that's what Bourne is now encountering in his fundraising conversations. Maybe he's getting a little dose of "fool me once..." thrown in his face.

I really don't understand what you'd be "livid" about if you gave big bucks to expand and renovate BFS. Whatever a "big donor" might have given its a drop in the bucket compared to what the students contribute, and the students don't have access to the amenities of the club seating. As for FBS, the renovation was a necessity to be ready if and when that might become real. Without the renovation to BFS JMU wouldn't be avg. 20k+ attendance and wouldn't be on any conferences short list of possible new members.

Your comments about the proposed new arena are also similarly confusing to me. Do you honestly think (on reflection)

an investment of $100 mil is an indication the JMU administration expects ongoing mediocrity in the men's program?

It all comes down to pretext and context. My point is there's a difference between asking for money for BFS to modernize the stadium and add 10k seats for growing demand, vs asking for money to prepare the stadium for an "imminent" move to FBS. I wasn't "engaged" back then but I'm assuming shortly after the national championship they started toying with the idea of expanding the stadium and must have approached big donors about 10 years ago? Like I said, if I was approached back then and asked for money under the guise of FBS I'd be upset with the lack of progress, let alone lack of public commitment and plan to get there.

The amount of that donation compared to the overall cost is irrelevant. What's important is how "painful" it is for a person to give that amount. $10k to a wealthy person may not be as painful as $100 to a new grad, but what about $50k or $100k? Most of these people are very weary of all the causes coming at them with open hands to begin with. Not saying they were misled, just saying it's not wise to burn them.

As for the arena yes, I have a huge concern that they are content with mediocrity. No offense to Coach Brady but I don't feel he's the man to get us to a Brook's level of success. We caught lightening in a bottle with Brooks. I keep harping on the fact that if we're not going to FBS now then we need a plan B that gets us out of the CAA and focuses on MBB. A strong MBB program will only aid an FBS move and in the meantime will get us some of the "national branding" that FCS and CAA will never get us. We need a $500k - $750k coach and I'd be willing to give "til it hurts" to support that directly.

(06-12-2015 09:30 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:41 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 02:53 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 02:42 PM)JMU Wrote:  I am not totally sure from the pictures but it looks like they are building a lopsided stadium like JMU.

honest question, was it wrong of JMU (or would it be wrong of W&M) to build a facility that meets the need of the capacity they have (while having room for expansion if necessary)? Wouldn't it be grossly irresponsible to build 40K seats when you need half that? You wouldn't build a 6,000 sq ft home when you only fill and afford 3,000 would you?

It would absolutely be irresponsible to over-build when it's not needed for the current or future plans. But the way things seem to be skipping along the bottom here it seems to me whatever foresight or anticipation was used to "build for the future" is turning into a bridge to nowhere quick (or I guess a "bridgeforth" to nowhere?).

I have the same concern for the basketball arena. If the current admin is fine with small-time CAA men's basketball that has half the success and half the attendance it used to then I'm certainly not incented to help pay for an arena they'll be hard-pressed to half fill with the current coach and conference. If I was a big donor and gave to Bridgeforth under the guise of FBS I'd be livid. My hope is that's what Bourne is now encountering in his fundraising conversations. Maybe he's getting a little dose of "fool me once..." thrown in his face.

... Whatever a "big donor" might have given its a drop in the bucket compared to what the students contribute, and the students don't have access to the amenities of the club seating...

That's why I am such a huge defender of our students. They foot the bill and should be treated as the huge contributor's they are. They are treated like horse manure compared to what they are paying for. I could not give a crap what other schools do, it has no bearing on my thoughts.

I agree 100%. They, along with the athletes, deserve to have programs that truly are the national standard. National level competition and exposure. A great game-day experience and a winning program. Every JMU student deserves that.

But something to remember is most of us have already paid 4 years of tuition and student fees, our donations are money on top of that. So for LH to point out students are paying more than most donors is bull. Especially at a dollars per person amount when the portion of their $2k in student fees that gets applied to football wouldn't cover the minimum donation and cost of the tickets.

(06-11-2015 03:22 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Why anyone would invest in putting millions of dollars into a football stadium and leaving a track around it is beyond me. That's about the worst characteristic a football stadium can have.

Agreed.
UR: New stadium opened 2010 with a track: FAIL.
W&M: Major stadium upgrade with a track: FAIL (and they went from real grass to turf).


12 CAA stadiums, 6 with tracks around them, a major fail. 6 without tracks. JMU, UD and the below 4, all built/upgraded since 01':
-Albany opened their new stadium in 13' (8500, expandable to 24,00).
-URI finished their upgrade in 09'. Albeit small (6600). Bonus for real grass.
-SBU opened their stadium in 02'(8100).
-Elon, opened their new stadium in 01' (11,200): Bonus for real grass.


When UD and W&M recently went to turf, that left I believe only Elon and URI with real grass.

I'll make a small wager that no donor was approached by JMU under the guise of FBS as the reason for stadium expansion; JMU built an expanded stadium because of capacity, and that's the end of the story. The stadium expansion enables FBS options down the road and that's it. If anyone feels we expanded the stadium primarily because of FBS then they didn't pay attention from 2005-2011. Demand exceeded supply for a consistent time (and mind you still would be exceeded to this day). We went from 15K, the new car smell wore off, we're at 20K with room to grow. Things are still pretty good when you consider the overall history of JMU Football. The great thing is that JMU put all the pieces in place to grow that even more (even if it's not according to some of your personal timelines).

Anyway, if you feel burned because we built (half) a stadium for an FBS move then I can't help you other than to say you had the wrong impression. JMU never said that.

The reason the stadium was built lopsided is for future FBS expansion. It makes sense with all the infrastructure needed for the press box and club Lounge.

The capacity of the stadium is a different story. It was built for FCS demand and will need to be enlarged on the small side when JMU goes FBS.

It is tough to swallow the fact that other FCS teams with less developed programs and less developed facilities have bypassed the Dukes.

I can remember looking at the 10 year football plan back in 2002ish and thinking JMU would and should be FBS by the end of the 10 years. Then I saw a national championship. Then I saw the APC. Then I saw a magical run to the semifinals. Then I saw the 2nd biggest upset in college football history over 32 pt favorite Va Tech. Then I saw the expanded BFS.
But still no FBS and it is 2015.

It is hard to keep momentum if the pace of development doesn't match your peers. That is where we stand right now as we are seeing some of the fizzle with even the diehard fanbase.

(06-12-2015 07:33 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  The reason the stadium was built lopsided is for future FBS expansion. It makes sense with all the infrastructure needed for the press box and club Lounge.

The capacity of the stadium is a different story. It was built for FCS demand and will need to be enlarged on the small side when JMU goes FBS.

It is tough to swallow the fact that other FCS teams with less developed programs and less developed facilities have bypassed the Dukes.

I can remember looking at the 10 year football plan back in 2002ish and thinking JMU would and should be FBS by the end of the 10 years. Then I saw a national championship. Then I saw the APC. Then I saw a magical run to the semifinals. Then I saw the 2nd biggest upset in college football history over 32 pt favorite Va Tech. Then I saw the expanded BFS.
But still no FBS and it is 2015.

It is hard to keep momentum if the pace of development doesn't match your peers. That is where we stand right now as we are seeing some of the fizzle with even the diehard fanbase.

Yup. This is a good summation.

(06-11-2015 03:22 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Why anyone would invest in putting millions of dollars into a football stadium and leaving a track around it is beyond me. That's about the worst characteristic a football stadium can have.

Really. Why not just watch the game from across campus.

(06-13-2015 03:05 AM)bulldogg Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 03:22 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Why anyone would invest in putting millions of dollars into a football stadium and leaving a track around it is beyond me. That's about the worst characteristic a football stadium can have.

Really. Why not just watch the game from across campus. If you are so broke you can't afford a separate track and field facility, then you have no business in D1 football.

(06-13-2015 12:34 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 07:33 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  The reason the stadium was built lopsided is for future FBS expansion. It makes sense with all the infrastructure needed for the press box and club Lounge.

The capacity of the stadium is a different story. It was built for FCS demand and will need to be enlarged on the small side when JMU goes FBS.

It is tough to swallow the fact that other FCS teams with less developed programs and less developed facilities have bypassed the Dukes.

I can remember looking at the 10 year football plan back in 2002ish and thinking JMU would and should be FBS by the end of the 10 years. Then I saw a national championship. Then I saw the APC. Then I saw a magical run to the semifinals. Then I saw the 2nd biggest upset in college football history over 32 pt favorite Va Tech. Then I saw the expanded BFS.
But still no FBS and it is 2015.

It is hard to keep momentum if the pace of development doesn't match your peers. That is where we stand right now as we are seeing some of the fizzle with even the diehard fanbase.

Yup. This is a good summation.

Agree. Well put.

(06-12-2015 09:46 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:30 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:41 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 02:53 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  honest question, was it wrong of JMU (or would it be wrong of W&M) to build a facility that meets the need of the capacity they have (while having room for expansion if necessary)? Wouldn't it be grossly irresponsible to build 40K seats when you need half that? You wouldn't build a 6,000 sq ft home when you only fill and afford 3,000 would you?

It would absolutely be irresponsible to over-build when it's not needed for the current or future plans. But the way things seem to be skipping along the bottom here it seems to me whatever foresight or anticipation was used to "build for the future" is turning into a bridge to nowhere quick (or I guess a "bridgeforth" to nowhere?).

I have the same concern for the basketball arena. If the current admin is fine with small-time CAA men's basketball that has half the success and half the attendance it used to then I'm certainly not incented to help pay for an arena they'll be hard-pressed to half fill with the current coach and conference. If I was a big donor and gave to Bridgeforth under the guise of FBS I'd be livid. My hope is that's what Bourne is now encountering in his fundraising conversations. Maybe he's getting a little dose of "fool me once..." thrown in his face.

... Whatever a "big donor" might have given its a drop in the bucket compared to what the students contribute, and the students don't have access to the amenities of the club seating...

That's why I am such a huge defender of our students. They foot the bill and should be treated as the huge contributor's they are. They are treated like horse manure compared to what they are paying for. I could not give a crap what other schools do, it has no bearing on my thoughts.

But something to remember is most of us have already paid 4 years of tuition and student fees, our donations are money on top of that. So for LH to point out students are paying more than most donors is bull. Especially at a dollars per person amount when the portion of their $2k in student fees that gets applied to football wouldn't cover the minimum donation and cost of the tickets.

2 Buck I understand the 4 years of tuition paid argument (even if your fees were less then what we pay now) but we students do pay more then I would imagine MANY donors. For one fees are well over $2k, they are just over $5k for in state and $12.5k for me and other out of state. 31% of that is for athletics meaning I am "donating" $3,906 a year to athletics. Combine that with my $350 a year true donation and I would have Crown level benefits. Tell me that isn't more then most donors.

We students pay the VAST majority of the cost of JMU Athletics and we aren't given anywhere near the same treatment.

(06-14-2015 03:19 PM)CISDuke2014 Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:46 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:30 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:41 PM)2Buck Wrote:  It would absolutely be irresponsible to over-build when it's not needed for the current or future plans. But the way things seem to be skipping along the bottom here it seems to me whatever foresight or anticipation was used to "build for the future" is turning into a bridge to nowhere quick (or I guess a "bridgeforth" to nowhere?).

I have the same concern for the basketball arena. If the current admin is fine with small-time CAA men's basketball that has half the success and half the attendance it used to then I'm certainly not incented to help pay for an arena they'll be hard-pressed to half fill with the current coach and conference. If I was a big donor and gave to Bridgeforth under the guise of FBS I'd be livid. My hope is that's what Bourne is now encountering in his fundraising conversations. Maybe he's getting a little dose of "fool me once..." thrown in his face.

... Whatever a "big donor" might have given its a drop in the bucket compared to what the students contribute, and the students don't have access to the amenities of the club seating...

That's why I am such a huge defender of our students. They foot the bill and should be treated as the huge contributor's they are. They are treated like horse manure compared to what they are paying for. I could not give a crap what other schools do, it has no bearing on my thoughts.

But something to remember is most of us have already paid 4 years of tuition and student fees, our donations are money on top of that. So for LH to point out students are paying more than most donors is bull. Especially at a dollars per person amount when the portion of their $2k in student fees that gets applied to football wouldn't cover the minimum donation and cost of the tickets.

2 Buck I understand the 4 years of tuition paid argument (even if your fees were less then what we pay now) but we students do pay more then I would imagine MANY donors. For one fees are well over $2k, they are just over $5k for in state and $12.5k for me and other out of state. 31% of that is for athletics meaning I am "donating" $3,906 a year to athletics. Combine that with my $350 a year true donation and I would have Crown level benefits. Tell me that isn't more then most donors.

We students pay the VAST majority of the cost of JMU Athletics and we aren't given anywhere near the same treatment.

My main point was a response to LH's assertion that what big donors give is a "drop in the bucket" compared to what students pay. That may be the case "in total" but not on a per person basis. I consider a big donor $10k+ a year which is more (vs a drop) compared to most student's $1,600 a year. Donors giving $2,000 plus the cost of tickets are enjoying those prime seats, not the donor giving $50.

My other point was not to omit or discount the fact alumni have already given JMU lots of money in addition to whatever post-graduation donations they've made. We had to pay for athletics as part of our JMU experience just like you have to, and just like future students will have to when you're an alumnus. But alumni are under obligation to give JMU a penny (and the vast majority don't). In fact many donors like myself that are out of state get very little benefit from athletic donations since we can't even attend games. Current students benefit more from those donations than we do. So how am I getting better treatment than students that get to attend all the games they want while I have to watch a POS webcast cause nothing's on TV?

I would assume students in my era (25 years ago, JMU was FCS / I-AA) footed roughly the same proportional amount of the athletics bill as students today. Maybe the total portion paid by students has shifted between the umbrellas of "tuition" or "fees" (like the little trick they pulled to meet the new state requirements). But if it has gotten to the point that students are now paying a substantially higher portion of athletics without an improved "product" or experience, then there has been some seriously gross negligence on the administration's part. Maybe it will take student protests to get national level sports that match our national level budget, or else to get the budget back in line where our current sports are.

But I truly hope 10 or 20 years after you graduate JMU is doing enough to keep you and grads or your era engaged and excited to build donations and improve JMU's national brand cause it just ain't happening right now. Without those alumni donations even more burden will be placed on the students because less and less is going to come from the state.

(06-15-2015 12:28 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-14-2015 03:19 PM)CISDuke2014 Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:46 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:30 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 08:35 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  ... Whatever a "big donor" might have given its a drop in the bucket compared to what the students contribute, and the students don't have access to the amenities of the club seating...

That's why I am such a huge defender of our students. They foot the bill and should be treated as the huge contributor's they are. They are treated like horse manure compared to what they are paying for. I could not give a crap what other schools do, it has no bearing on my thoughts.

But something to remember is most of us have already paid 4 years of tuition and student fees, our donations are money on top of that. So for LH to point out students are paying more than most donors is bull. Especially at a dollars per person amount when the portion of their $2k in student fees that gets applied to football wouldn't cover the minimum donation and cost of the tickets.

2 Buck I understand the 4 years of tuition paid argument (even if your fees were less then what we pay now) but we students do pay more then I would imagine MANY donors. For one fees are well over $2k, they are just over $5k for in state and $12.5k for me and other out of state. 31% of that is for athletics meaning I am "donating" $3,906 a year to athletics. Combine that with my $350 a year true donation and I would have Crown level benefits. Tell me that isn't more then most donors.

We students pay the VAST majority of the cost of JMU Athletics and we aren't given anywhere near the same treatment.

My main point was a response to LH's assertion that what big donors give is a "drop in the bucket" compared to what students pay. That may be the case "in total" but not on a per person basis. I consider a big donor $10k+ a year which is more (vs a drop) compared to most student's $1,600 a year. Donors giving $2,000 plus the cost of tickets are enjoying those prime seats, not the donor giving $50.

My other point was not to omit or discount the fact alumni have already given JMU lots of money in addition to whatever post-graduation donations they've made. We had to pay for athletics as part of our JMU experience just like you have to, and just like future students will have to when you're an alumnus. But alumni are under obligation to give JMU a penny (and the vast majority don't). In fact many donors like myself that are out of state get very little benefit from athletic donations since we can't even attend games. Current students benefit more from those donations than we do. So how am I getting better treatment than students that get to attend all the games they want while I have to watch a POS webcast cause nothing's on TV?

I would assume students in my era (25 years ago, JMU was FCS / I-AA) footed roughly the same proportional amount of the athletics bill as students today. Maybe the total portion paid by students has shifted between the umbrellas of "tuition" or "fees" (like the little trick they pulled to meet the new state requirements). But if it has gotten to the point that students are now paying a substantially higher portion of athletics without an improved "product" or experience, then there has been some seriously gross negligence on the administration's part. Maybe it will take student protests to get national level sports that match our national level budget, or else to get the budget back in line where our current sports are.

But I truly hope 10 or 20 years after you graduate JMU is doing enough to keep you and grads or your era engaged and excited to build donations and improve JMU's national brand cause it just ain't happening right now. Without those alumni donations even more burden will be placed on the students because less and less is going to come from the state.

You lost this argument.