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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #941
RE: UMass Football
(09-10-2017 10:19 PM)lance99 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 05:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:35 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  This is not a UMass perspective but my personal opinion. UMass Football affiliation will not happen until the 2020’s and affiliation will be the result of various factors. First let’s take the most important scenario that the Big 12 expands and UMass is not invited to the AAC, leaving the MAC or Independence as the most viable options.

Let’s discuss the MAC or Independence option. Will UMass actively seek a MAC invite or stay independent. Going down or dropping football is not on the table for a top major research institution and state flagship university.

The decision not to accept the MAC all sports invite was made by past leaders as AD, Chancellor and President. So what are the conditions that would lead to UMass chose/ask for a MAC sports invite. The present UMass leadership need to be in place or at a minimum be pro FBS Football.

Our current AD is pro FBS and has not hesitated on firing non performing coaches after giving them an additional year or two. So far he has fired the men’s basketball and women’s basketball coaches along with the men’s hockey coach. He has the fortitude to go against the pro basketball camp and do what he considers is best for UMass. Meaning that staying independent has hurt recruiting and we need to be in a conference.

Then next condition that would help is the A10 does not strengthen and perhaps further weaken. I believe there is a good chance that the A10 becomes a two bid conference as the strength at the top has weaken. Looking at VCU schedules, they play at Dayton and have URI at home and are probably the two strongest A10 teams. Neither of these match-ups are on ESPN but on ESPN2. Perhaps the consolidation of the NCAA dance is influencing ESPN slot choices.

It will help that the MAC basketball strength stays steady or improves where they can have the second best team regularly earn an at-large NIT bid. It will also help if UMass football donations increase as a percentage relative to basketball.

Why would the MAC invite us is very debatable. We are talking in the future the 2020’s and the MAC is more than half way through its present media contract. UMass would need to show it's commitment to FBS as having an IPF, along with some improvements to McGuirk. There would need to be an attractive pairing team. The only way it would make financial sense and has been done with other conferences is that the new teams do not get an equal share of the pie. That UMass sports improve and makes us more attractive. Perhaps the next contract would be significantly less than 10 million and adding two attractive teams would offset it. It’s true splitting the CFP pie would still be a sore sport as well. Will add, we are playing Ohio and Akron will be on the schedule for 2019. Obviously we have to have some MAC teams strongly lobbying for our admission.

I am reading your post and I agree there is a chance here.

I will throw out a scenario for 2023.

B12 (Houston, Cincinnati)
AAC (St. Louis, Dayton)

The AAC sticks at 10 in FB but adds 2 more basketball additions which damage the A10 even more. What does UMass and VCU do in this situation?

What if they can put together a package to sell to the MAC?

UMass (FB, BB)
Rhode Island (BB)
ODU (FB, BB)
VCU (BB)

The MAC would go to 14 in FB but then 16 in basketball with URI and VCU as travel partners for UMass and ODU.

UMass, URI, VCU, ODU would be in MAC East with Buffalo, Ohio, Akron, Kent the best 4 basketball programs in the MAC so the SOS would be comparable to the A10.

It needs to be a travel partner plan to make it viable.

The MAC Brass would NEVER go for a Hybrid(for FB/BB).........
Never say never

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09-11-2017 05:46 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #942
RE: UMass Football
(09-10-2017 11:53 PM)Blitz Wrote:  Per the above posts, I think if the MAC ever decides to expand to 16, it will look more like this:

MAC:

North - NIU, CMU, WMU, EMU

South - Missouri St., Arkansas St., Ill. St., Ball St.

Central - Miami, Ohio, Toledo, Marshall

East - Buffalo, Kent, Akron, BG

More fertile (less crowded) markets, with better regional rivalries, and more of an emphasis on football. I think the window for UMass has closed, because without a Temple (the original intended MAC partner) or an Army pairing, there are better football grouping options.

Marshall I see no enthusiasm for them from MAC presidents.

I see Old Dominion a nice add for the MAC. They could do well in the MAC East and bring a bowl game. I believe the MAC offered them before.
09-11-2017 10:10 PM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #943
RE: UMass Football
UMass at Temple Friday night on ESPNU. UMass is a team with luck, but it's bad luck. Two years ago, we had Temple beat and they blocked an extra point and ran it back. Then did a drive and kicked the winning field goal. Last weekend we had a drive going and they called a very ticky tack hold when Ford scrambled to a first down and was called back, plus the penalty. We also had a fumble recover but the player was called down, but no review. Momentum changes and we are team that has not learned to overcome those obstacles and win. Our day will come and we can't have bad luck forever.
09-11-2017 10:49 PM
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Post: #944
RE: UMass Football
(09-11-2017 10:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:53 PM)Blitz Wrote:  Per the above posts, I think if the MAC ever decides to expand to 16, it will look more like this:

MAC:

North - NIU, CMU, WMU, EMU

South - Missouri St., Arkansas St., Ill. St., Ball St.

Central - Miami, Ohio, Toledo, Marshall

East - Buffalo, Kent, Akron, BG

More fertile (less crowded) markets, with better regional rivalries, and more of an emphasis on football. I think the window for UMass has closed, because without a Temple (the original intended MAC partner) or an Army pairing, there are better football grouping options.

Marshall I see no enthusiasm for them from MAC presidents.

I see Old Dominion a nice add for the MAC. They could do well in the MAC East and bring a bowl game. I believe the MAC offered them before.

The ODU beat writer for the Virginian-Pilot wrote a pretty exhaustive article about ODU and their attempt to find an FBS home. The MAC commissioner was among those at the time who said thanks, but no thanks. Whether that was an indictment of ODU or a lack of interest in expanding in general, I don't know. I guess it's possible that the MAC would be more open to ODU now that it's more established, but it'd take a lot of moves to open up spots in the MAC, I'd wager. And even then, a move from CUSA to the MAC would be a lateral move at best and probably not worth having to pay an exit fee as well as an entrance fee.

VCU almost certainly wouldn't join the MAC unless the A-10 was about to fall to America East levels and it didn't have any other options. I think they'd get an AAC bid before St. Louis. But even a worst-case scenario (Dayton and UMass to the AAC, St. Louis and Richmond to the Big East) would leave VCU in a conference with George Washington, Davidson, Rhode Island, St. Joseph's and a few other schools that occasionally rise up (St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, George Mason). That might still be more appealing than being a basketball member of a football conference that hasn't had an at-large NCAA bid since 1999.

Not sure what Rhody's deal is. The A-10 is probably the best they can hope for; their basketball isn't Big East worthy (plus public school) and they almost sent their football to the low-scholarship NEC, so that really cuts down on their options. But recent hoops success notwithstanding, I don't know that the MAC would even want them (Duquesne has lesser basketball and is a private school but they're at least in the footprint).
09-11-2017 10:57 PM
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Post: #945
RE: UMass Football
(09-11-2017 05:46 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 10:19 PM)lance99 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 05:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:35 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  This is not a UMass perspective but my personal opinion. UMass Football affiliation will not happen until the 2020’s and affiliation will be the result of various factors. First let’s take the most important scenario that the Big 12 expands and UMass is not invited to the AAC, leaving the MAC or Independence as the most viable options.

Let’s discuss the MAC or Independence option. Will UMass actively seek a MAC invite or stay independent. Going down or dropping football is not on the table for a top major research institution and state flagship university.

The decision not to accept the MAC all sports invite was made by past leaders as AD, Chancellor and President. So what are the conditions that would lead to UMass chose/ask for a MAC sports invite. The present UMass leadership need to be in place or at a minimum be pro FBS Football.

Our current AD is pro FBS and has not hesitated on firing non performing coaches after giving them an additional year or two. So far he has fired the men’s basketball and women’s basketball coaches along with the men’s hockey coach. He has the fortitude to go against the pro basketball camp and do what he considers is best for UMass. Meaning that staying independent has hurt recruiting and we need to be in a conference.

Then next condition that would help is the A10 does not strengthen and perhaps further weaken. I believe there is a good chance that the A10 becomes a two bid conference as the strength at the top has weaken. Looking at VCU schedules, they play at Dayton and have URI at home and are probably the two strongest A10 teams. Neither of these match-ups are on ESPN but on ESPN2. Perhaps the consolidation of the NCAA dance is influencing ESPN slot choices.

It will help that the MAC basketball strength stays steady or improves where they can have the second best team regularly earn an at-large NIT bid. It will also help if UMass football donations increase as a percentage relative to basketball.

Why would the MAC invite us is very debatable. We are talking in the future the 2020’s and the MAC is more than half way through its present media contract. UMass would need to show it's commitment to FBS as having an IPF, along with some improvements to McGuirk. There would need to be an attractive pairing team. The only way it would make financial sense and has been done with other conferences is that the new teams do not get an equal share of the pie. That UMass sports improve and makes us more attractive. Perhaps the next contract would be significantly less than 10 million and adding two attractive teams would offset it. It’s true splitting the CFP pie would still be a sore sport as well. Will add, we are playing Ohio and Akron will be on the schedule for 2019. Obviously we have to have some MAC teams strongly lobbying for our admission.

I am reading your post and I agree there is a chance here.

I will throw out a scenario for 2023.

B12 (Houston, Cincinnati)
AAC (St. Louis, Dayton)

The AAC sticks at 10 in FB but adds 2 more basketball additions which damage the A10 even more. What does UMass and VCU do in this situation?

What if they can put together a package to sell to the MAC?

UMass (FB, BB)
Rhode Island (BB)
ODU (FB, BB)
VCU (BB)

The MAC would go to 14 in FB but then 16 in basketball with URI and VCU as travel partners for UMass and ODU.

UMass, URI, VCU, ODU would be in MAC East with Buffalo, Ohio, Akron, Kent the best 4 basketball programs in the MAC so the SOS would be comparable to the A10.

It needs to be a travel partner plan to make it viable.

The MAC Brass would NEVER go for a Hybrid(for FB/BB).........
Never say never

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using CSNbbs mobile app

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09-12-2017 02:16 AM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #946
RE: UMass Football
Just hearing Ryan Bamford (the UMass AD) talk right now, I can't help but think that they're slow-building in an attempt to join the AAC. They're apparently targeting an IPF and stadium enhancements right on the heels of a new football facility.

He also appears to be respectful of other teams as well.
09-15-2017 08:12 PM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #947
RE: UMass Football
The good thing about UMass from this outsider's opinion is that they have the difficult part already taken care of. They are a flagship school in the 15th most populated state! They have a recognizable name and are a highly ranked academic school. Those are not things any up and comer can accomplish quickly on their own. So, comparatively speaking, fixing football and facilities are easy.
09-16-2017 07:23 AM
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #948
RE: UMass Football
(09-15-2017 08:12 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Just hearing Ryan Bamford (the UMass AD) talk right now, I can't help but think that they're slow-building in an attempt to join the AAC. They're apparently targeting an IPF and stadium enhancements right on the heels of a new football facility.

He also appears to be respectful of other teams as well.

I watched the Temple Vs Umass game and Banford serms pretty sharp and made a good case that Umass is making the right moves for football. You have to wonder if UMass can survive as an independent until the next big conference shake though. UMass would fit in nicely with UConn and Temple in the east. Also, the American seems to be pro UMass, scheduling the Minuteman regularly.

ps: UMass would have won last night if they had not missed three field goals.
09-16-2017 02:24 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #949
RE: UMass Football
(09-16-2017 02:24 PM)No Bull Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 08:12 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Just hearing Ryan Bamford (the UMass AD) talk right now, I can't help but think that they're slow-building in an attempt to join the AAC. They're apparently targeting an IPF and stadium enhancements right on the heels of a new football facility.

He also appears to be respectful of other teams as well.

I watched the Temple Vs Umass game and Banford serms pretty sharp and made a good case that Umass is making the right moves for football. You have to wonder if UMass can survive as an independent until the next big conference shake though. UMass would fit in nicely with UConn and Temple in the east. Also, the American seems to be pro UMass, scheduling the Minuteman regularly.

ps: UMass would have won last night if they had not missed three field goals.

YES - UMASS just seems to let the close ones slip a way all the time and a lot of opportunities to win just seem to go down the drain late - very late in the game. 07-coffee3
09-17-2017 02:34 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #950
RE: UMass Football
(09-11-2017 10:57 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:53 PM)Blitz Wrote:  Per the above posts, I think if the MAC ever decides to expand to 16, it will look more like this:

MAC:

North - NIU, CMU, WMU, EMU

South - Missouri St., Arkansas St., Ill. St., Ball St.

Central - Miami, Ohio, Toledo, Marshall

East - Buffalo, Kent, Akron, BG

More fertile (less crowded) markets, with better regional rivalries, and more of an emphasis on football. I think the window for UMass has closed, because without a Temple (the original intended MAC partner) or an Army pairing, there are better football grouping options.

Marshall I see no enthusiasm for them from MAC presidents.

I see Old Dominion a nice add for the MAC. They could do well in the MAC East and bring a bowl game. I believe the MAC offered them before.

The ODU beat writer for the Virginian-Pilot wrote a pretty exhaustive article about ODU and their attempt to find an FBS home. The MAC commissioner was among those at the time who said thanks, but no thanks. Whether that was an indictment of ODU or a lack of interest in expanding in general, I don't know. I guess it's possible that the MAC would be more open to ODU now that it's more established, but it'd take a lot of moves to open up spots in the MAC, I'd wager. And even then, a move from CUSA to the MAC would be a lateral move at best and probably not worth having to pay an exit fee as well as an entrance fee.

VCU almost certainly wouldn't join the MAC unless the A-10 was about to fall to America East levels and it didn't have any other options. I think they'd get an AAC bid before St. Louis. But even a worst-case scenario (Dayton and UMass to the AAC, St. Louis and Richmond to the Big East) would leave VCU in a conference with George Washington, Davidson, Rhode Island, St. Joseph's and a few other schools that occasionally rise up (St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, George Mason). That might still be more appealing than being a basketball member of a football conference that hasn't had an at-large NCAA bid since 1999.

Not sure what Rhody's deal is. The A-10 is probably the best they can hope for; their basketball isn't Big East worthy (plus public school) and they almost sent their football to the low-scholarship NEC, so that really cuts down on their options. But recent hoops success notwithstanding, I don't know that the MAC would even want them (Duquesne has lesser basketball and is a private school but they're at least in the footprint).

Article seems to confirm the MAC-16 plan at the time would have been acceptable with Delaware, JMU and ODU all moving to the MAC but Delaware and JMU were not in a position to move up.

ODU met with the MAC commish at the final four. MAC commish not too interested but thinks about it later. Hatches a potential plan that includes ODU, JMU and Delaware that doesn't get off the ground. MAC option still considered by ODU down to the wire but would require cooperation by more institutions (JMU, Delaware) so was ruled out.

I wish the MAC would consider non-FB members but they don't seem interested in going that direction.

I feel also that Buffalo, UMass and ODU have business playing in the same FBS conference together which is not happening at this point.
09-17-2017 08:23 AM
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