DON'T SMU them! Take away the championships and banners, charge them a large fine, cut the number of players on their football team to FCS level, and allow they to play only away games for 3 years in any sport connected with the rigged classes (so the fans they cheated against can laugh them to scorn)!

The disgusting thing is not just that UNC had a fake department, with fake classes, with a fake professor, with fake curriculum; its that the students were so challenged that they needed a tutor!

If you're not willing to punish someone that spits on the rules, then why bother having rules in the first place?

FBS programs should just do whatever they want, since clearly ESPN/FOX have decided that any TV property of some value is untouchable.

If we're going to play like this, then the AAC needs to get into a dark room and agree to all collectively cheat and not snitch on each other.

The truth will come out in 10 years, but who cares since we'll all become valuable TV properties by then!!!

(06-05-2015 08:14 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(06-05-2015 07:39 AM)ken d Wrote:  How many of us believe the schools we went to didn't/don't provide their star athletes an easy way to stay eligible? Is UNC over the top in this regard? Sure. But by how much?

Good grief! The last thing I want to hear is a UNC goat herder begging for mercy. Vacate the championships & take down the banners. UNC is a scumbag, hypocritical, paper mill, elementary level, school.

There's nobody begging for mercy here. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just pointing out the incredible naivete, coupled with pure venom, that I see here. Your last sentence is as over the top as UNC's scandalous actions. All I read there is pure, unadulterated bias.

I notice there aren't a lot of people ready to say their school is above reproach. The fact that virtually every major university provides intense tutoring for its athletes says definitively that they, too, are admitting students who aren't prepared to perform academically at the level of a regular student. I'm OK with that. As far as I'm concerned, every school has an obligation to provide as much education to its athletes as they want and are capable of. If that's something short of a legitimate degree, so be it.

Bit - your fix is hard-core. GoR dissolved, 6 playahs move on to more lucrative conferences, Tarheels stunned...but they still have their annual pigskin clash with Wake.

Medieval, old testament punishment which would never be issued: vacated wins/championships in all sports (not just hoops), and loss of X scholarships (one-third?) in hoops for the same amount of years as the transgressions occurred. That would satisfy college sports fans who tire of the blatant cheating, and not a single member of the NCAA would agree to those terms, 'cept maybe the handful of schools (17?) that have never broken the rules (or been caught doing so).

And since member institutions ARE the NCAA, we'll see a wrist slap, similar to Miami's latest, U$C's latest, Penn State's coverups, etc. But if another Boise football player sleeps on a couch and gets a Happy Meal, that shizzle's gonna be shut down!

SMU, you deserved a severe punishment for the Pony Express shenanigans, and you did NOT deserve the death penalty. It's been what? -- 30 years? -- and you're slowly crawling out of the crater. Think of all the crap that's occurred since then (really, Baylor? Murder?!?) without a penalty nearing the death penalty. Pffft.

(06-05-2015 07:38 AM)58-56 Wrote:  

(06-04-2015 10:56 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-04-2015 10:48 PM)58-56 Wrote:  Make them swap presidents and trustees with us.

Why doesn't UAB go Thomas Jefferson and declare their independence?

Would require a statewide vote (the Board is empowered in the state constitution). Polling shows we could win, but that vote is years away.

UAB is one of 18 programs never hit with NCAA violations, which does make it kind of hard to bear when our teams get the death penalty and the Carolinas, Penn States, Miamis etc. walk away from these things untouched.

UA-Tuscaloosa's presidency is vacant, and hopefully they'll hire Ray Watts.

Heh, you said Bear:

UNC is an interesting case because of two factors -- the academic fraud "benefitted" many athletes over many years on the one hand, but on the other hand the NCAA hasn't found any coaches' fingerprints on it.

Which makes it completely different in both respects from, say, the Harrick incident at Georgia, where the fraudulent class in question was only one class, but the instructor was Harrick Jr. who was an assistant coach. (That should be another item on the list for the next time Andy Staples revises his "Cheating for Dummies" article -- Never let a coach teach one of the phony classes.)

If the NCAA Keystone Kops can prove that Roy Williams or one of his assistants knew about the academic fraud or at least knew "enough" and just distanced themselves from it instead of stopping it (a la John Wooden with Sam Gilbert), then those championships might be vacated, and current players will be allowed to transfer out.

If they can't prove that much, then UNC's penalties will look like what Miami got for the Nevin Shapiro stuff. That was (1) finding of "lack of institutional control"; (2) loss of 9 football scholarships over 3 years, (3) loss of 1 men's hoops scholarship each year for 3 years, (4) acceptance of self-imposed football postseason bans for two years while investigation was ongoing. UNC would get hit harder for men's hoops and women's hoops and not as much for football as Miami, based on the NCAA's letter.

UNC has to make tough decisions soon about self-imposing postseason bans for men's and women's hoops. They might get hit harder if they don't self impose anything. And they won't have the easy-out of imposing bans on teams that are just mediocre (like Syracuse did in hoops and Miami did in football), because UNC's men's and women's teams both look to be contenders and both are coming off of Sweet 16 appearances this year.

(06-05-2015 01:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  UNC is an interesting case because of two factors -- the academic fraud "benefitted" many athletes over many years on the one hand, but on the other hand the NCAA hasn't found any coaches' fingerprints on it.

Which makes it completely different in both respects from, say, the Harrick incident at Georgia, where the fraudulent class in question was only one class, but the instructor was Harrick Jr. who was an assistant coach. (That should be another item on the list for the next time Andy Staples revises his "Cheating for Dummies" article -- Never let a coach teach one of the phony classes.)

If the NCAA Keystone Kops can prove that Roy Williams or one of his assistants knew about the academic fraud or at least knew "enough" and just distanced themselves from it instead of stopping it (a la John Wooden with Sam Gilbert), then those championships might be vacated, and current players will be allowed to transfer out.

If they can't prove that much, then UNC's penalties will look like what Miami got for the Nevin Shapiro stuff. That was (1) finding of "lack of institutional control"; (2) loss of 9 football scholarships over 3 years, (3) loss of 1 men's hoops scholarship each year for 3 years, (4) acceptance of self-imposed football postseason bans for two years while investigation was ongoing. UNC would get hit harder for men's hoops and women's hoops and not as much for football as Miami, based on the NCAA's letter.

UNC has to make tough decisions soon about self-imposing postseason bans for men's and women's hoops. They might get hit harder if they don't self impose anything. And they won't have the easy-out of imposing bans on teams that are just mediocre (like Syracuse did in hoops and Miami did in football), because UNC's men's and women's teams both look to be contenders and both are coming off of Sweet 16 appearances this year.

This is more than Shapiro because the academic advisors were steering athletes that way and they had dozens, perhaps hundreds of "student"-athletes taking the class. Its not coaches just looking the other way. University athletic department employees were actively involved and knew what was going on.

UNC got a slap on the wrist, but they punished my school that I attended.

http://www.arkansasmatters.com/story/d/s...sQq6N78GWA

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/.../?f=sports


Both the Wonder Boys and Golden Suns' basketball teams are on probation and vacate wins, lost of regular season titles they won the Great American Conference, lost of titles they won for GAC championship, and lost of scholarships for both.

The baseball, football and volleyball got hit as well. I think this wrong doing by Tech was a lot less than the North Carolina's scandal.

(06-05-2015 01:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-05-2015 01:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  UNC is an interesting case because of two factors -- the academic fraud "benefitted" many athletes over many years on the one hand, but on the other hand the NCAA hasn't found any coaches' fingerprints on it.

Which makes it completely different in both respects from, say, the Harrick incident at Georgia, where the fraudulent class in question was only one class, but the instructor was Harrick Jr. who was an assistant coach. (That should be another item on the list for the next time Andy Staples revises his "Cheating for Dummies" article -- Never let a coach teach one of the phony classes.)

If the NCAA Keystone Kops can prove that Roy Williams or one of his assistants knew about the academic fraud or at least knew "enough" and just distanced themselves from it instead of stopping it (a la John Wooden with Sam Gilbert), then those championships might be vacated, and current players will be allowed to transfer out.

If they can't prove that much, then UNC's penalties will look like what Miami got for the Nevin Shapiro stuff. That was (1) finding of "lack of institutional control"; (2) loss of 9 football scholarships over 3 years, (3) loss of 1 men's hoops scholarship each year for 3 years, (4) acceptance of self-imposed football postseason bans for two years while investigation was ongoing. UNC would get hit harder for men's hoops and women's hoops and not as much for football as Miami, based on the NCAA's letter.

UNC has to make tough decisions soon about self-imposing postseason bans for men's and women's hoops. They might get hit harder if they don't self impose anything. And they won't have the easy-out of imposing bans on teams that are just mediocre (like Syracuse did in hoops and Miami did in football), because UNC's men's and women's teams both look to be contenders and both are coming off of Sweet 16 appearances this year.

This is more than Shapiro because the academic advisors were steering athletes that way and they had dozens, perhaps hundreds of "student"-athletes taking the class. Its not coaches just looking the other way. University athletic department employees were actively involved and knew what was going on.

Miami had at least dozens of athletes who received "benefits" from Shapiro.

The NCAA is going to impose significantly harsher sanctions than Miami's only if the fingerprints of coaches, or the AD, or people who reported directly to the AD, are on the academic fraud at UNC.

IMO there's a big difference, in terms of the sanctions that will be imposed, if the people proven culpable include only low-level employees versus higher-level employees. (I'm predicting what "will" happen, not necessarily what "should" happen.)

(06-05-2015 01:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  UNC is an interesting case because of two factors -- the academic fraud "benefitted" many athletes over many years on the one hand, but on the other hand the NCAA hasn't found any coaches' fingerprints on it.

This isn't entirely accurate. A few points:

• The NOA has individual names and dates redacted, especially the exhibits
• There is an interview with Wayne Walden, Roy Williams' right hand man at both Kansas at UNC, both of which had AFAM depatments. UNC says they lost the transcript, but the NCAA has it.
• The only reason that Roy hasn't been named is because the staffers refused to cooperate. UNC would rather face mandatory penalties for non-cooperation (2 of the 5 charges), than have these folks potentially roll over and give up the names of Roy Williams and other higher ups
• Other coaches have refused to comply with NCAA requests. One was JMU football HC Evertt Withers. There are others
• IIRC the NCAA is still reaching out to approximately 10 more people that they want to discuss details with
• A very reputable NCSU insider, who has been on top of this situation since day one, has said that there is more to come. It is being piecemealed out to the public so that the full weight is absorbed. He has promised that the NOA is not the end of this.
  

I do believe the NCAA is trying to leave some wiggle room to scapegoat the staffers and WBB, leave Roy alone, and go light on football and MBB. The silence re: Roy Williams is key - under the penalty guidelines, he'd have to be fired with a show cause penalty. UNC AD Bubba Cunningham flew to the NCAA HQ @ Indianapolis to negotiate this point prior to the NOA release...

However, if they do this, in addition to the insiders dropping some supposedly nuclear level information they are holding back (because of collateral damage), the NCAA will lose what little remains of its edict over D1 Sports, and they know it.

They will do so by providing a rubber stamp blueprint for cheating and non-cooperation with their inquiries. Additionally, if they are not careful, they mind find themselves arguing counter to their own interests in the pending athlete lawsuits over such issues as the impermissible benefits and specifically the monetary value of education. They need that last point to be $0 for one case, and material for the other. They cannot have it both ways.

UNC has spent something like $9 Million or more to cover up this scandal, paying a former NC Governor to try to whitewash it a few years ago, plus the payoff to protect Women's Soccer coach Anson Dorrance from a sexual assault charge, and additional PR/legal help to deal with having agents on their football staff, giving cars to players, letting a player (who was busted for drug possession) live in a home owned by Roy Williams, etc.

They are quite simply the dirtiest program in college sports. I may have said Miami, Kentucky, USC, or Alabama, but they have set the bar much higher than any of those institutions could, and at the same time, they had the arrogance to constantly preach that they did things the "right" way, the "Carolina" way.

If they had a shred of the integrity they espouse, they'd vacate the wins, take down the banners, fire/reassign staff, and self impose scholarship reductions and four or five year postseason bans for all sports named in the NOA. That's what honor and justice would demand. But they have not a shred of either.

BTW, word is Bubba Cunningham is in the process of signing Roy to a contract extension... talk about thumbing your nose at the system. It also deflects attention from the real issues of cheating.

(06-05-2015 02:22 PM)Artifice Wrote:  BTW, word is Bubba Cunningham is in the process of signing Roy to a contract extension... talk about thumbing your nose at the system. It also deflects attention from the real issues of cheating.

Now you know Ole Coach "Gosh-Shucks" didn't know 'nuff'n 'bout no vi-o-lay-shuns. Stop blass-fee-men................I, I mean..............uh, stop sland-der-anne Ole Coach Roy-boy Dep-e-dee Dog.

cheaters gonna cheat....

(06-05-2015 07:37 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  cheaters gonna cheat....

You got that right. North Carolina got a slap on the wrist, and a D2 school (Arkansas Tech) got the brunt of the punishment. Tech was not as bad as North Carolina.

I wonder if Arkansas Tech was trying to implement COAs for their sports that they got slapped for? Maybe Arkansas Tech and any D2 schools that could afford COAs need to move up.

Cheaters will cheat as long as they get no more punishment than schools that break NCAA rules that are almost impossible not to break.

But the NCAA needs to send a message here. If they don't, the NCAA is toast.

One thing that may work against the typical slap on the wrist is that the NCAA may be toast if they don't take this seriously. This type of thing destroys any court defenses against professionalism. If they lose that court case, the NCAA as an organization will be dramatically changed. Fair chance much of FBS moves into a separate organization.

(06-06-2015 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  One thing that may work against the typical slap on the wrist is that the NCAA may be toast if they don't take this seriously. This type of thing destroys any court defenses against professionalism. If they lose that court case, the NCAA as an organization will be dramatically changed. Fair chance much of FBS moves into a separate organization.

I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't be as much of FBS as many people around here hope.

(06-06-2015 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  One thing that may work against the typical slap on the wrist is that the NCAA may be toast if they don't take this seriously. This type of thing destroys any court defenses against professionalism. If they lose that court case, the NCAA as an organization will be dramatically changed. Fair chance much of FBS moves into a separate organization.

One issue that the schools have to face as well that they could be sued by student players as well. The schools may have to take the lump of punishment as well. The big name schools are under heavy scrutiny right now. Especially Florida State with the Winston situation and the Miami Florida Ponzi schemer that gave the players, coaches and school officials gifts.
Oklahoma men's basketball got hit again as well. The whole NCAA and all the schools need to clean up their act and care more about getting these players an education first than win at all cost first. The kids are not there to party all the time, and don't do homework.