Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
Author Message
Redwingtom Offline
Progressive filth
*

Posts: 51,524
Joined: Dec 2003
Reputation: 971
I Root For: B-G-S-U !!!!
Location: Soros' Basement
Post: #1
Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2015 10:19 AM by Redwingtom.)
06-03-2015 10:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


ragincajun019 Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 42
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 16
I Root For: _
Location:
Post: #2
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
Baffling to hear people claim we should have armed rebels in the area. Absolutely dumbfounding.
06-03-2015 10:33 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #3
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.
06-03-2015 03:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Redwingtom Offline
Progressive filth
*

Posts: 51,524
Joined: Dec 2003
Reputation: 971
I Root For: B-G-S-U !!!!
Location: Soros' Basement
Post: #4
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.
06-03-2015 03:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hitch Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,535
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 26
I Root For: Maryland
Location: Washington
Post: #5
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
It seems to me like there are two paths:
1) Stay involved for several decades and hope to end up with some semblance of stability but know that the middle east will never be a bastion of democracy and western-style civilization. It's expensive and keeps us a primary target of terror attacks but there's a chance that things may work out OK in the long run.

2) Get out and hope that after a period of chaos, some semblance of stability emerges from the biggest warlord or another powerful country decides to take their turn as the lion tamer. But hey, we'll likely save a few trillion dollars.
06-03-2015 03:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #6
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea
06-03-2015 03:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Ole Blue Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,244
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 215
I Root For: The Good Guys
Location: New Jersey
Post: #7
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:26 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea

Unfortunately those states are nothing like the Middle East, even back in the day. In Germany and Japan you did not have armed insurgent groups with large swaths of largely uncontrollable (by US/allies) territory in rough terrain. Popular support as well for the terror groups. The ME is a unique place in that a lot of Western ideas of warfare and democracy have a mixed bag of results, often on the negative end of the spectrum.
06-03-2015 03:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Brookes Owl Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,965
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 165
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesDonators
Post: #8
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

Huh?
06-03-2015 03:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hitch Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,535
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 26
I Root For: Maryland
Location: Washington
Post: #9
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
06-03-2015 03:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Redwingtom Offline
Progressive filth
*

Posts: 51,524
Joined: Dec 2003
Reputation: 971
I Root For: B-G-S-U !!!!
Location: Soros' Basement
Post: #10
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:26 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea

Unfortunately those states are nothing like the Middle East, even back in the day. In Germany and Japan you did not have armed insurgent groups with large swaths of largely uncontrollable (by US/allies) territory in rough terrain. Popular support as well for the terror groups. The ME is a unique place in that a lot of Western ideas of warfare and democracy have a mixed bag of results, often on the negative end of the spectrum.

Bingo. This is mostly a religious war with many religious factions in a smallish area.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2015 03:54 PM by Redwingtom.)
06-03-2015 03:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Brookes Owl Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,965
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 165
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesDonators
Post: #11
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:39 PM)Hitch Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

I'm clear on the origin of the Taliban. And fyi, I'm actually fine with the premise that regime change, nation-building, and chasing terrorists into faraway nooks and crannies is usually a bad idea. But it seems a little bizarre to compare the Soviet handling of Afghanistan to the US handling of Iraq, especially considering how actively the US supported the Soviet opposition.
06-03-2015 04:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Ole Blue Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,244
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 215
I Root For: The Good Guys
Location: New Jersey
Post: #12
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:53 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:26 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea

Unfortunately those states are nothing like the Middle East, even back in the day. In Germany and Japan you did not have armed insurgent groups with large swaths of largely uncontrollable (by US/allies) territory in rough terrain. Popular support as well for the terror groups. The ME is a unique place in that a lot of Western ideas of warfare and democracy have a mixed bag of results, often on the negative end of the spectrum.

Bingo. This is mostly a religious war with many religious factions in a smallish area.

The problem is that this isn't really a religious war - religion is just used as a funnel to channel their political ideologies, which often don't even line up with most teachings. Islam makes it easier because if you are a higher-up in the order, you can just order fatwas and the 'commoners' below the 'intellectuals' are given a free pass to do whatever the terrorist commanders at the top, disguised as religious leaders, want. They try to, and a lot of times successfully do, suppress the population through programs offering a guise of sanity like schools and roads but it is all a front to continue their organization's end goals of conquering and such. It has been seen for many years in the ME, with the Taliban in Afghanistan and now ISIS in Iraq, tho IMO ISIS is a lot worse in terms of the scale of their brutality.
06-03-2015 04:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Redwingtom Offline
Progressive filth
*

Posts: 51,524
Joined: Dec 2003
Reputation: 971
I Root For: B-G-S-U !!!!
Location: Soros' Basement
Post: #13
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 04:10 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:39 PM)Hitch Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

I'm clear on the origin of the Taliban. And fyi, I'm actually fine with the premise that regime change, nation-building, and chasing terrorists into faraway nooks and crannies is usually a bad idea. But it seems a little bizarre to compare the Soviet handling of Afghanistan to the US handling of Iraq, especially considering how actively the US supported the Soviet opposition.

But that's the whole point...the piece was about the harm from arming folks in the region. We Armed the Afghans, which lead to the Taliban, which lead to Bin Laden, which lead to Saddam, which lead to ISIS.

As in the movie War Games, sometimes it's best not to play.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2015 04:51 PM by Redwingtom.)
06-03-2015 04:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
usmbacker Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,677
Joined: Nov 2003
Reputation: 1320
I Root For: Beer
Location: Margaritaville
Post: #14
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
When you have a 100% p#ssy as President who loves Muslims, ISIS is free to behead and slaughter who they want to without worrying about the US.
06-03-2015 04:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JMUDunk Offline
Rootin' fer Dukes, bud
*

Posts: 29,501
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 1721
I Root For: Freedom
Location: Shmocation
Post: #15
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 03:26 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea

Because we left forces there for stability and they remain there, ALL volunteers BTW, to this day, 60-70 yrs later. I think that may have been your point on "the plan" you reference above, but by including the part with the Iraqi militia it's a little murky in your exact meaning,

That said- 2011 and prior Iraq was relatively stable, and the behinder in chief cut and ran. Of course bad characters are going to seek opportunity and with the historical record of the Iraqi armies, it was pretty clear they would, and did, pose next to no opposition.

Had we left a relatively minor residual force of say 20k troops (ALL volunteers, BTW) in a remote area with xxx miles of clear buffer, and "do not enter or you-dead" instruction, we could have kept the peace.

Respond to risks, read ISIS, but not policing local areas or do any other patrols, the Iraqi Army probably could have handled that.

But no, the community organizer in chief had other plans, never mind what our military leaders, and former POTUS, had spelled out very specifically what could and did happen. Almost to a T.

And no, before any of you apologists bring it up, the SOFA is a non-starter. If zerO had wanted one he could have simply demanded one. If Malaki wasn't going to play ball, kick his asss out and go on to the next one until you find the right guy. Simple enough.
06-03-2015 06:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #16
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 06:16 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:26 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:19 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that it takes a comedian to have to point this out to the idiot populi.

Learning Curves are for *******

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana, 1905

The current administration was elected expressly to get America out of Iraq. Our absence of course would leave a power vacuum that someone had to fill. We hoped it would be the Iraqi militia that was left but they obviously failed in that charge.

But lets not act like the plan proposed hadn't succeeded elsewhere in the world.

Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

I was thinking Germany, Japan and Korea

Because we left forces there for stability and they remain there, ALL volunteers BTW, to this day, 60-70 yrs later. I think that may have been your point on "the plan" you reference above, but by including the part with the Iraqi militia it's a little murky in your exact meaning,

That said- 2011 and prior Iraq was relatively stable, and the behinder in chief cut and ran. Of course bad characters are going to seek opportunity and with the historical record of the Iraqi armies, it was pretty clear they would, and did, pose next to no opposition.

Had we left a relatively minor residual force of say 20k troops (ALL volunteers, BTW) in a remote area with xxx miles of clear buffer, and "do not enter or you-dead" instruction, we could have kept the peace.

Respond to risks, read ISIS, but not policing local areas or do any other patrols, the Iraqi Army probably could have handled that.

But no, the community organizer in chief had other plans, never mind what our military leaders, and former POTUS, had spelled out very specifically what could and did happen. Almost to a T.

And no, before any of you apologists bring it up, the SOFA is a non-starter. If zerO had wanted one he could have simply demanded one. If Malaki wasn't going to play ball, kick his asss out and go on to the next one until you find the right guy. Simple enough.

Once it was clear that America would be departing the region within the 2012-2016 window, the only chance for stability rested with the Iraqi Militia. Obviously I felt that if the US were willing to commit to staying in the region for 50 years that results similar to Japan and Germany could have been achieved. Many disagree with that POV.

That said I don't blame Obama for the decision to withdraw as that was his mandate from the electorate. In this regard the President has dutifully carried out the will of the people. But no one should be surprised that an insurgent force rose to fill the vacuum of power as America withdrew from the area.

RWT, you referred to War Games quote it is a reasonable perspective. But bare in mind that as America retreats from the the Global Arena militarily that there is going to be a commiserate raise in conflict. You and many that share the belief that US Intervention causes more problems than it solves, will get the opportunity to see if that POV is valid.
06-03-2015 07:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


UCF08 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,262
Joined: Feb 2011
Reputation: 211
I Root For: UCF
Location:
Post: #17
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 04:53 PM)usmbacker Wrote:  When you have a 100% p#ssy as President who loves Muslims, ISIS is free to behead and slaughter who they want to without worrying about the US.

Whatever happened to a modicum of respect when referring to the POTUS, or does that only go into effect when you like the person in office.
06-03-2015 07:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
usmbacker Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,677
Joined: Nov 2003
Reputation: 1320
I Root For: Beer
Location: Margaritaville
Post: #18
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 07:55 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 04:53 PM)usmbacker Wrote:  When you have a 100% p#ssy as President who loves Muslims, ISIS is free to behead and slaughter who they want to without worrying about the US.

Whatever happened to a modicum of respect when referring to the POTUS, or does that only go into effect when you like the person in office.

Cry me a river. When Obama respect's America, I will respect him.
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 01:26 PM by Hambone10.)
06-03-2015 08:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1206
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #19
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
At this point...I am not in favor of doing anything about ISIS if it involves a single US soldiers life.... unless we decide to take off the gloves and TOTALLY destroy them. We all know...that is not going to happen.
06-03-2015 08:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
WoodlandsOwl Offline
Up in the Woods
*

Posts: 11,813
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 115
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #20
RE: Why We Probably Shouldn't Engage ISIS
(06-03-2015 04:50 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 04:10 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:39 PM)Hitch Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:32 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Yep...it worked in Afghanistan.

Oh...wait...that created the Taliban.

Oops.

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

I'm clear on the origin of the Taliban. And fyi, I'm actually fine with the premise that regime change, nation-building, and chasing terrorists into faraway nooks and crannies is usually a bad idea. But it seems a little bizarre to compare the Soviet handling of Afghanistan to the US handling of Iraq, especially considering how actively the US supported the Soviet opposition.

But that's the whole point...the piece was about the harm from arming folks in the region. We Armed the Afghans, which lead to the Taliban, which lead to Bin Laden, which lead to Saddam, which lead to ISIS.

As in the movie War Games, sometimes it's best not to play.

The Pakistani ISI initially supported the Taliban after the Soviets left. Blame the Pakis
06-03-2015 08:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.