Who has the worst NCAA Tournament records among coaches. I know Pete Caril has to be up there but I just came across a stat that Fran Dunphy, currently of Temple is, 3-15. All I can say is wow and I know a lot of that came at Penn, but still that's hard to do (yeah, yeah, it means you make a lot of NCAA Tournaments).

Is this a question for all sports or if you are talking about a specific sport, then which one?

Basketball, of course. I know baseball is going on but I don't follow it nor do most people here.

Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

(06-01-2015 07:10 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Who has the worst NCAA Tournament records among coaches. I know Pete Caril has to be up there but I just came across a stat that Fran Dunphy, currently of Temple is, 3-15. All I can say is wow and I know a lot of that came at Penn, but still that's hard to do (yeah, yeah, it means you make a lot of NCAA Tournaments).

Interesting question, but of course I'd prefer a coach that is 3-15 in the NCAA tourney than a coach that is 0-0.

As a TN fan it hurts to say but Barnes is one of the worst underachievers in the tournament. But he gets teams there and will provide some stability.for a school that needs it.

Barnes made a Final Four at least. Prior to this past season I would have said Mike Brey.

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

Sounds like the definition of a Missouri coach.

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

Jay Wright...and if people can get over the underdog name, Mark Few. Both schools would find a way to make them live and coach for them forever if they could.

The stats are what they are...objective numbers. They don't look good for guys like Carril and Dunphy, and, again, they're the one you want for life at virtually any program, just like the "underachievers" at these top programs, because they go to tournaments, make money, and run good programs.

What's the converse these days? UCLA?

(06-02-2015 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

Jay Wright...and if people can get over the underdog name, Mark Few. Both schools would find a way to make them live and coach for them forever if they could.

The stats are what they are...objective numbers. They don't look good for guys like Carril and Dunphy, and, again, they're the one you want for life at virtually any program, just like the "underachievers" at these top programs, because they go to tournaments, make money, and run good programs.

What's the converse these days? UCLA?

Few isn't an underachiever in the NCAAs. His Gonzaga teams have been eliminated by lower seeds 5 of 16 times. That's a better "batting average" in the tournament than many other tournament regulars. Bill Self at Kansas, for example, has been eliminated by a lower seed 8 times in 12 seasons (counting only teams eliminated prior to the Final Four). John Thompson III at Georgetown has been eliminated by a lower seed 7 of 8 times.

(06-02-2015 01:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

Jay Wright...and if people can get over the underdog name, Mark Few. Both schools would find a way to make them live and coach for them forever if they could.

The stats are what they are...objective numbers. They don't look good for guys like Carril and Dunphy, and, again, they're the one you want for life at virtually any program, just like the "underachievers" at these top programs, because they go to tournaments, make money, and run good programs.

What's the converse these days? UCLA?

Few isn't an underachiever in the NCAAs. His Gonzaga teams have been eliminated by lower seeds 5 of 16 times. That's a better "batting average" in the tournament than many other tournament regulars. Bill Self at Kansas, for example, has been eliminated by a lower seed 8 times in 12 seasons (counting only teams eliminated prior to the Final Four). John Thompson III at Georgetown has been eliminated by a lower seed 7 of 8 times.

That's the sting of the stats' objectivity, though. Self's got a title, a runner-up credential, and hasn't not been seen at a tournament since 1998, where others like him, even if he's disappointed plenty, don't have that. It seems cheap to hang that kind of stat on him. Thompson's got a Final Four and Sweet 16 to his name, and has never not sent his program to the NCAA or NIT.

I don't fully disagree with you about Few, either. But, then, how often were his teams given garbage seeds despite him having a top ten or fifteen-ranked team? This is a team that's made it to the Sweet Sixteen five times and only stopped out further once? Those aren't mid-major kids on his teams anymore.

One historic "underachiever" that came to mind was Gene Keady while at Purdue. Again, though...it's Purdue.

Don't know if Norm Stewart of Missouri is the worst, but he had some pretty good teams. He was 22nd all time on the win list.
But they flamed out in the postseason.

In 6 NIT, etc. tournaments he went out in the first round 5 times. Once he got to the 2nd round.
In 16 NCAA tourneys, he went out in the 1st round 8 times (3 times as conference champs), 2nd round 3 times (once as conference champ), sweet 16 3 times (2 as conference champs) and elite 8 twice (both conference champs).
Calculating, that comes to 1-6 in the miscellaneous tourneys and 15-16 in the NCAA.

(06-02-2015 02:19 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

Jay Wright...and if people can get over the underdog name, Mark Few. Both schools would find a way to make them live and coach for them forever if they could.

The stats are what they are...objective numbers. They don't look good for guys like Carril and Dunphy, and, again, they're the one you want for life at virtually any program, just like the "underachievers" at these top programs, because they go to tournaments, make money, and run good programs.

What's the converse these days? UCLA?

Few isn't an underachiever in the NCAAs. His Gonzaga teams have been eliminated by lower seeds 5 of 16 times. That's a better "batting average" in the tournament than many other tournament regulars. Bill Self at Kansas, for example, has been eliminated by a lower seed 8 times in 12 seasons (counting only teams eliminated prior to the Final Four). John Thompson III at Georgetown has been eliminated by a lower seed 7 of 8 times.

That's the sting of the stats' objectivity, though. Self's got a title, a runner-up credential, and hasn't not been seen at a tournament since 1998, where others like him, even if he's disappointed plenty, don't have that. It seems cheap to hang that kind of stat on him. Thompson's got a Final Four and Sweet 16 to his name, and has never not sent his program to the NCAA or NIT.

I don't fully disagree with you about Few, either. But, then, how often were his teams given garbage seeds despite him having a top ten or fifteen-ranked team? This is a team that's made it to the Sweet Sixteen five times and only stopped out further once? Those aren't mid-major kids on his teams anymore.

One historic "underachiever" that came to mind was Gene Keady while at Purdue. Again, though...it's Purdue.

24 players who played for Self at KU have gone on to play in the NBA. That means any given KU roster has at least 2 or 3 future NBA players. There are only 8 former Few/Gonzaga players who have played in the NBA, and nearly all of them are marginal NBAers. The talent level isn't comparable, yet the Zags perform up to their tournament seed more often than KU or Georgetown.

(06-02-2015 02:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  Don't know if Norm Stewart of Missouri is the worst, but he had some pretty good teams. He was 22nd all time on the win list.
But they flamed out in the postseason.

In 6 NIT, etc. tournaments he went out in the first round 5 times. Once he got to the 2nd round.
In 16 NCAA tourneys, he went out in the 1st round 8 times (3 times as conference champs), 2nd round 3 times (once as conference champ), sweet 16 3 times (2 as conference champs) and elite 8 twice (both conference champs).
Calculating, that comes to 1-6 in the miscellaneous tourneys and 15-16 in the NCAA.

The NCAA started seeding teams in 1979. Stewart retired after the 1999 season, so he had 14 NCAA tournament teams in that timespan. Half lost to a higher seed in the tournament, and half were upset by a lower seed. Two of the "upsets" weren't that upsetting -- his only #1 seed lost a regional final to a #2 seed, and his last team was a #8 seed that lost to a #9 seed.

Stewart had a .500 "batting average" as far as at least performing to his team's seed. Not great, but not the worst.

Since Cutter mentioned Keady -- Keady's Purdue teams performed at least to their seed 7 times in 18 NCAA tournaments, for a .389 "batting average".

(06-02-2015 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Ivy League coaches who regularly make the NCAAs and lose as #15 or 16 seeds are not the "worst" anything. Not even close. You can't expect those guys to win often in the NCAAs because they are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

The "worst" NCAA tournament records would be for coaches who regularly flop as favorites. The guys with teams full of McD's All-Americans and future NBA players who don't go deep in the NCAA tournament. Which coach has the worst record in NCAA tournament games in which his team was the higher seed? Which coach has the worst percentage of making the sweet 16 in years when his team has a top-3 seed?

It's not a matter of who does less with more, it's about who has the worst record, which is what I'm specifically looking for. I'd imagine Greg Marshall didn't have a good one before the Final Four appearance.

The 3-15 record really jumped out to me. Ivy League or not, that's hard to do in more than one way.

(06-02-2015 01:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Few isn't an underachiever in the NCAAs. His Gonzaga teams have been eliminated by lower seeds 5 of 16 times. That's a better "batting average" in the tournament than many other tournament regulars. Bill Self at Kansas, for example, has been eliminated by a lower seed 8 times in 12 seasons (counting only teams eliminated prior to the Final Four). John Thompson III at Georgetown has been eliminated by a lower seed 7 of 8 times.

The problem is the Zags made those initial runs to the second weekend and then fell off and often underachieved when in the Dance. They lost as a higher seed two straight years and the famous loss where Morrison was crying on the court where they were technically rated lower than UCLA but the better team going into the game and through the first 39 and a half minutes of it.

Other than minor first round upsets, they haven't beaten a higher seeded team in almost 15 years and been stung with the first round upset bug some years though to be fair, one of those years was to Steph Curry and Davidson. Worst yet, their best teams aside from '04-06, ran into opponents from Tobacco Road steamrolling their way to a national championship. Tough luck I guess.

(06-02-2015 02:19 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  This is a team that's made it to the Sweet Sixteen five times and only stopped out further once? Those aren't mid-major kids on his teams anymore.

The Zags have made it beyond the second round 6 times, including 2 Elite 8's.

Dunphy was 1-8 at Penn in the first round. He is 2-4 in the first round at Temple. We have been upset by 12 seed Cornell and 12 seed USF.