You can't fix stupid. Our gov't and tax code would be a lot better off if our politicians would accept that.

(05-27-2015 06:10 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  I can't even begin to state how much I disagree with this sentiment. Body cameras, if implemented properly, could result in the single largest change in police culture while simultaneously removing the overwhelming majority of police abuse cases which are almost certainly frivolous.

It won't solve every problem, not my any stretch of the imagination, but it sure will go a long way in allowing a more accurate recollection of events.

Here is what's going to happen the first time a high-profile incident occurs:

1. People are going to angrily demand the video within hours of the incident. When it's not provided immediately for investigation purposes, they're going to scream cover up.
2. When the video is released and if it doesn't support their opinion on the case, they'll claim it's been edited.
3. Whenever the mood strikes...riot.

Body cameras may not even provide an accurate recollection of events, as you aren't going to see everything. Some incidents will be very cut and dry. In others, there's going to be a lot of things that are out of view at various points in time.

That's where the problem lies for some of these people that think body cameras are a magic fix.

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  What color uniforms are acceptable?

Blue is my preference, FWIW.

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  What happens when a patrol officer rolls up on a situation where there is an active shooter armed with something far more powerful than the sidearm you want to limit him to?

I do not want to limit police officers to sidearms. Shotguns are appropriate. I want to limit the number of semi-automatic rifles and full battle rattle available to domestic American police officers. They are not the military, and they rarely if ever are presented with active shooter situations as you've described. This does not inspire confidence and respect so much as it brings fear:

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  How many deaths are acceptable to allow for A. SWAT to assemble and B. to respond and arrive on scene?

None. The police that arrive on the scene should assess the situation and respond accordingly. SWAT teams are the means of last resort, responding to controlled/contained situations where advanced firepower is required.

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  What is law enforcement supposed to do when confronted with this?

This happened a long time ago, and has generally not been repeated. Are we willing to arm American police like infantrymen on the off chance this happens again? I am not. Or, I should say I am no longer.

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  but what about standard sporting rifle ammunition that will go through the standard police body armor like a knife through butter? What happens when they are confronted with that?

A .22 will kill almost as easily as a 30-06. If they are confronted by a shooter, they assess the situation and move in to confront the shooter. Active shooters are rarely armed with anything that can outgun your local police officer, especially considering the responders are highly trained law enforcement officers with tremendous firearm training and knowledge of capturing criminals.

(05-26-2015 08:06 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The law enforcement officers I know would love to be more community oriented, but because of funding cuts are usually spending their shifts going from call to call to call. The only interaction they have with the public is either the people they are taking reports from or the ones they are arresting.

This is the case in American policing, sadly. Perhaps a re-commitment to community based policing over report writing, misdemeanor tickets, small drug offenses, and other small quality of life concerns could actually decrease those offenses, and again integrate the police into the community in ways seen in prior years.

The state of American policing is broken, and I say this as a supporter of law enforcement. I have previously been appointed to citizen committees by the Minneapolis Chief of Police to give feedback on local policing. I have knowledge of this and I am not speaking in a vacuum. Policing is too heavily influenced by military tactics and an Us v Them mentality. This must be fixed. I understand your points completely and they have strong merits and concerns, but removing the full battle rattle and a return to community policing are two steps towards reforming American law enforcement.

Interestingly enough. The Feds have recently given the Cleveland P.D. some suggestions.

1. Stop pistol whipping people.

2. Read background checks on cops they hire.

3. Give first aid when needed.

4. Do not shoot at moving cars.

YOu can't make this stuff up.

In the event a Domestic or foreign Terror group decides to attack something usually the Police are in most cases the frontline defense. How often or quickly could the National guard or Military respond to a sneak Attack. I have No problem with the Police having access to Heavy equipment if trained properly and Not used for intimidation of Civilians.

(05-27-2015 01:09 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  In the event a Domestic or foreign Terror group decides to attack something usually the Police are in most cases the frontline defense. How often or quickly could the National guard or Military respond to a sneak Attack. I have No problem with the Police having access to Heavy equipment if trained properly and Not used for intimidation of Civilians.

In what cases has this ever happened?

Kaplony brough up a case in Hollywood that has been the event that forced cops to miltarize.

In that gun battle, they were outgunned.

The country had a choice then. They could either restrict guns so that the cops were never out gunned or they could militarize the police.

Guess which side they chose.

That is the defining moment when cops, in a lot of people's minds, became the enemy and not the protectors we were used to counting on.

(05-26-2015 04:17 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 03:47 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  In their training they should be explicitly informed that they are not "above" or "superior" to the civilian population. They are hired to serve, not to do their best SS impressions by constantly being dicks to people.

Explain.

Ever went through a checkpoint?

They really need to lighten up. Especially when they're stopping a bunch of folks for absolutely no reason.

It's amazing that the more we discuss this issue, the more agreement we find.

We all can admit that things need to change, but how do you bring the stress level of a LEO down? Some nights it's non stop calls and not enough LE personnel. I don't want my local property taxes to increase, so we can't increase local taxes. What's the alternative?

Lets look at who is committing these crimes? Are they one time criminals or are they repeat offenders?

How many chances do repeat offenders get? Police should be responding to the general public and repeat offenders should be away from society because they obviously don't know how to be contributors of the community. They bring community down.

It's like having an office building with a bunch of people working in a nice orderly manner. Throw a rat or mice on the ground and people start freaking out and become scared to help their neighbor out because they are afraid of that one rat biting them. Eliminate the bad eggs and any society will become productive!

(05-27-2015 01:09 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  In the event a Domestic or foreign Terror group decides to attack something usually the Police are in most cases the frontline defense. How often or quickly could the National guard or Military respond to a sneak Attack. I have No problem with the Police having access to Heavy equipment if trained properly and Not used for intimidation of Civilians.

A sneak attack like that would never occur, or if it did, it would occur in such a fashion as to render any sort police response purely pointless. If you're worried about terrorist attacks, how many terrorist attacks would have been stopped had police been better armed? I can't think of a single example.

Furthermore, this isn't the polices responsibility as laid out in the constitution, and rightfully so.

Quote:This happened a long time ago, and has generally not been repeated.

Language in video is NSFW

(05-27-2015 01:19 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-27-2015 01:09 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  In the event a Domestic or foreign Terror group decides to attack something usually the Police are in most cases the frontline defense. How often or quickly could the National guard or Military respond to a sneak Attack. I have No problem with the Police having access to Heavy equipment if trained properly and Not used for intimidation of Civilians.

In what cases has this ever happened?

Kaplony brough up a case in Hollywood that has been the event that forced cops to miltarize.

In that gun battle, they were outgunned.

The country had a choice then. They could either restrict guns so that the cops were never out gunned or they could militarize the police.

Guess which side they chose.

That is the defining moment when cops, in a lot of people's minds, became the enemy and not the protectors we were used to counting on.

Guns of the type used by the bank robbers I linked above have been strictly regulated since 1934 when the National Firearms Act was signed into law by FDR. They were illegal to modify to fully automatic and illegal to possess without a permit.

Oh, and both suspects in the North Hollywood shootout were convicted felons and prohibited from possessing any firearms by law.

For whatever reason these two thugs didn't worry about the law. Imagine that!

(05-27-2015 02:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-27-2015 01:19 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-27-2015 01:09 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  In the event a Domestic or foreign Terror group decides to attack something usually the Police are in most cases the frontline defense. How often or quickly could the National guard or Military respond to a sneak Attack. I have No problem with the Police having access to Heavy equipment if trained properly and Not used for intimidation of Civilians.

In what cases has this ever happened?

Kaplony brough up a case in Hollywood that has been the event that forced cops to miltarize.

In that gun battle, they were outgunned.

The country had a choice then. They could either restrict guns so that the cops were never out gunned or they could militarize the police.

Guess which side they chose.

That is the defining moment when cops, in a lot of people's minds, became the enemy and not the protectors we were used to counting on.

Guns of the type used by the bank robbers I linked above have been strictly regulated since 1934 when the National Firearms Act was signed into law by FDR. They were illegal to modify to fully automatic and illegal to possess without a permit.

Oh, and both suspects in the North Hollywood shootout were convicted felons and prohibited from possessing any firearms by law.

For whatever reason these two thugs didn't worry about the law. Imagine that!

I don't know if that's a great example because quite honestly, that ban has been effective in reducing the amount of crime committed by those sorts of weapons. Look it up, they're hardly even worth mentioning statistically. People are overwhelmingly shot with small caliber handguns, not from high-powered automatic rifles, which is one fact that sort of hurts a lot of gun control aimed at the latter. Realistically, those AR-15 clones people lose their minds over aren't what is causing firearm deaths. You can absolutely say that firearm prohibition has at best an iffy history in the US, but that specific legislation seems to have worked.

(05-27-2015 01:20 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 04:17 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 03:47 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  In their training they should be explicitly informed that they are not "above" or "superior" to the civilian population. They are hired to serve, not to do their best SS impressions by constantly being dicks to people.

Explain.

Ever went through a checkpoint?

Numerous. Even one night when we got stopped by one returning from a cancelled response in our engine. The officers were going to just wave us through but I told my engineer to show his DL (fire apparatus is SC are not required by law to be registered and tagged so we don't carry registration, and at the time because we were self-insured through the state we did not carry proof of insurance) in case some whiny-ass who complains about everything law enforcement does was behind us would complain about favoritism.

Quote:They really need to lighten up. Especially when they're stopping a bunch of folks for absolutely no reason.

Every single one I have been through the officer(s) were professional and businesslike unless it was someone I knew and they usually joked with me for a minute then I was on my way.

And after being on a couple thousand different incidents with law enforcement officers over the years it has been my observation that in the vast majority of cases (and by vast majority I'm talking 95 out of 100 type majority) the attitude of the officer is usually a direct reflection of the person they are dealing with.


But I know what you are talking about and the perception that they are "being dicks" is caused by a tactic they are taught to have a command presence. It's a non-personal, direct, business only approach used to make their (and any authority FWIW....we were taught the same tactic in command classes) job easier.

(05-27-2015 02:14 PM)NewJersey GATA Wrote:  We all can admit that things need to change, but how do you bring the stress level of a LEO down?

Majority of the LEO's I know don't have much stress....or so it seems.

so what we have so far as to how we can cut down on such events from happening is :

tell cops to not be dicks
train cops to not be dicks
don't give them militarized gear.



man. ground breaking sh1t here.

lol

(05-27-2015 03:22 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  so what we have so far as to how we can cut down on such events from happening is :

tell cops to not be dicks
train cops to not be dicks
don't give them militarized gear.



man. ground breaking sh1t here.

lol

Hey. It's worth a shot!!!!

I got a ticket by the Missouri State Police yesterday morning.

I was driving to work and went through the back way. I enjoy that route, there's always deer out and about.. There's also a bison farm, and from time to time you can see one of them bad boys out close to their fence. It's a beautiful drive.. All green.. Got a nice mountain stream to the side.. But it's a curvy road..

Anyways, a Missouri State Hwy Patrol SUV was behind me.. I figured he was going home. I was doing about 40 and he was right on my tail. Had been for miles, I figured if he were going to get me, he would've so I said, well shoot he's going home.. So I'm driving and I come around this curve and this big ol' gobbler stepped out and I hit him.. Hit him so hard, he honestly came over the cab of my truck. I figured he was gonna land in the bed.. Imagine my horror when I looked in my rearview mirror and saw the windshield of that Trooper's SUV get smashed in.. He swerved.. Slowed down and then hit his lights. I pulled over, went to get out he help him, but he called out over his PA for me to stay in the vehicle.

About 15 minutes later he pulled away with a smashed windshield and I drove off with a ticket...

He wrote me a ticket for flipping him the bird..