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Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #1
Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
$1.9 million is a significant number but it isn't half as bad as many make it out to be, for a number of reasons.

EXPECTATIONS
The 2014 team was coming off of 3 straight NCAA appearances was expected to be a Sweet 16 team. The team returned a nucleus of proven players (JJ, Crawford, Geron, Shaq) along with a solid recruiting class (King, Iverson, Austin) and a highly regarded transfer in Dixon.

The 2015 team wasn't expected to be ranked, and had very few known entities (Nichols, Shaq, King, Iverson). All of the above are going to lead to lower attendance.

HOME SCHEDULE - RANKED/RIVALS/MARQUEE
2014
UConn
7 Louisville
Cincy
UConn
23 Gonzaga
18 SMU
21 UConn

2015
Oklahoma State
UConn
Cincy
21 SMU

The 2014 schedule had games against 3 opponents that were ranked. The 2015 schedule only had 1 game against a ranked opponent, and it was at the tail end of the season. There were fully 7 home games in 2014 that would be considered highly interesting. Considering that none of our AAC opponents were highly regarded, and Oklahoma State wasn't ranked, it can be argued that there were almost no interesting games on last year's schedule.

We drew 1,479 less fans per game from 2014. I did not count the UConn game in the AAC tournament because it wasn't part of the home schedule and we didn't get to keep all of the revenue and/or we paid for the rights to hold the tournament.

The difference in attendance for the 18 games was 26,624. To incur a loss in revenue of $1,9 million, that averages out to $71 per ticket; which seems about right. Flip the home schedule and there would have been very little difference in attendance and this year's attendance might have been higher than 2014's even with the difference in the quality and expectations.

I put this together quickly. Please feel free to correct anything that isn't accurate.
05-25-2015 11:58 AM
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TIGERCITY Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
Just so there's no confusion --- basketball DID NOT lose 1.9 million. The 7.6 million in basketball revenue 'originally reported' by the CA did not include connected donations of 6 million tied to the purchase of basketball tickets. So basketball made money.
05-25-2015 12:11 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:11 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so there's no confusion --- basketball DID NOT lose 1.9 million. The 7.6 million in basketball revenue 'originally reported' by the CA did not include connected donations of 6 million tied to the purchase of basketball tickets. So basketball made money.

Absolutely. I am breaking down the alleged $1.9 million less revenue that we took in. Also, it seems that football lost a lot more money than it used to. I would have to try to find a link, but I think in 2004 or 2005; the program only lost $2-3 million one of the years.
05-25-2015 12:15 PM
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TIGERCITY Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:11 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so there's no confusion --- basketball DID NOT lose 1.9 million. The 7.6 million in basketball revenue 'originally reported' by the CA did not include connected donations of 6 million tied to the purchase of basketball tickets. So basketball made money.

Noted in the revised CA and also --- here >>>

http://www.espn929.com/pages/21552145.php?

... What it doesn’t take into account is the per-seat donation that season-ticket holders are required to make to the Tiger Scholarship Fund. I’m told that in the 2013-14 year, those per-seat donations totaled around $6 million.

Again: Those donations don’t go in the books as basketball revenue. But over half of TSF’s contributions were a direct result of the basketball season ticket seat donations.

Indeed, The Commercial Appeal updated its online story to reflect that the original reported number of $7.6 million did not include per-seat donations after this tweet from Senior Associate Athletics Director Ryan Bradley.
05-25-2015 12:17 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:17 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(05-25-2015 12:11 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so there's no confusion --- basketball DID NOT lose 1.9 million. The 7.6 million in basketball revenue 'originally reported' by the CA did not include connected donations of 6 million tied to the purchase of basketball tickets. So basketball made money.

Noted in the revised CA and also --- here >>>

http://www.espn929.com/pages/21552145.php?

... What it doesn’t take into account is the per-seat donation that season-ticket holders are required to make to the Tiger Scholarship Fund. I’m told that in the 2013-14 year, those per-seat donations totaled around $6 million.

Again: Those donations don’t go in the books as basketball revenue. But over half of TSF’s contributions were a direct result of the basketball season ticket seat donations.

Indeed, The Commercial Appeal updated its online story to reflect that the original reported number of $7.6 million did not include per-seat donations after this tweet from Senior Associate Athletics Director Ryan Bradley.

So the easy way to guess would be to look at season ticket sales for the 3 years (2014,2015,2016) and reduce the $7.6 or $6 million; whatever it is by the number of lost season tickets last year and this year.
05-25-2015 12:26 PM
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450bench Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
To me this speaks of the downward trajectory of the basketball program and when that happens, everything at the university is victim to the results. As a lot of us have said, at this school, basketball is the bell cow and has been for years and years. Football should be and may be someday but it's not right now. This coming basketball season will be much worse in terms of profit and loss and this university can't afford that. Not in the least. That's why a change needed to be made but it wasn't. The administration has no one to blame but themselves. I'd bet all that changes at the end of the season in 2016.
05-25-2015 12:29 PM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:29 PM)450bench Wrote:  To me this speaks of the downward trajectory of the basketball program and when that happens, everything at the university is victim to the results. As a lot of us have said, at this school, basketball is the bell cow and has been for years and years. Football should be and may be someday but it's not right now. This coming basketball season will be much worse in terms of profit and loss and this university can't afford that. Not in the least. That's why a change needed to be made but it wasn't. The administration has no one to blame but themselves. I'd bet all that changes at the end of the season in 2016.

The best case is for pastner to have a great season next year. that fixes everything immediately.

If Pastner doesn't and gets fired and we cannot make a wow hire the program may stay down until success is achieved
05-25-2015 12:38 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:29 PM)450bench Wrote:  To me this speaks of the downward trajectory of the basketball program and when that happens, everything at the university is victim to the results. As a lot of us have said, at this school, basketball is the bell cow and has been for years and years. Football should be and may be someday but it's not right now. This coming basketball season will be much worse in terms of profit and loss and this university can't afford that. Not in the least. That's why a change needed to be made but it wasn't. The administration has no one to blame but themselves. I'd bet all that changes at the end of the season in 2016.

Relative to revenues and expenses, RIGHT NOW, the program is in infinitely better shape than it was at any time before 2006 and will continue to be even if revenues are another $2 million lower this year.

Quote: This coming basketball season will be much worse in terms of profit and loss and this university can't afford that. Not in the least.

It probably will, but looking at it from another point of view, some will see it as a long term opportunity to dig in and improve their seats by 1,000 spots. Others that are thinking of leaving, will look at how long it took them to get good seats, will gamble that Pastner has a good season or leaves, and won't want to forfeit those seats based on a bad season or two.

Quote:This coming basketball season will be much worse in terms of profit and loss and this university can't afford that. Not in the least.

I repeated the same quote twice for a reason. You state that the university can't afford it, but you are willing to "help" put it in a bad spot with your gang dropping 12 tickets.

This scenario comes up in most cities. What a lot of season ticket holders do in many markets, is to continue to purchase the tickets, but they sell the tickets to half the games or a portion of them to limit the costs and keep their spot.

In Montreal, where we are true hockey fans who support their team no matter what, you can always find fans that will jump at the opportunity to grab tickets that they would never have access to. This is for a 22,000 seat arena, with 41 home games with an average ticket price of $265.

It seems that Memphians are such fair weather, bandwagon fans, that there won't be enough demand to find 15,000 fans for 18 home games.
05-25-2015 12:56 PM
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450bench Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
Let me repeat myself. I'm an alum of the university. My daughter is too. I have a son that starts there this year. My family has had season tickets for 41 years and we have donated major money above and beyond season ticket surcharges for most of those years. We are fans of the university in every way. We hope the basketball program makes a change and it is our right, as it is everyone's, to do what we want with our money.
05-25-2015 01:14 PM
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Sundanceuiuc Away
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Post: #10
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 12:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  It seems that Memphians are such fair weather, bandwagon fans, that there won't be enough demand to find 15,000 fans for 18 home games.

This part seems a little unfair for a variety of reasons, nevermind it's bad form to smack your own fanbase.

1. Montreal is MUCH larger than Memphis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal (1.6M proper / 4M metro)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Tennessee (650K proper / 1.34M metro)

2. There is no comparable franchise to the Canadiens in all of the Quebec region (and that will remain true until Quebec City gets its deserved expansion team). To be fair Ottawa is 2+ hours away.

Teams that are similar in type to Memphis Tigers BB that are <3 hours away (for the Ottawa comparison):
- Memphis Grizzlies (competing for same dollar)
- Mississippi State
- Ole Miss
- Vandy is exactly 3 hours via google maps

More competition for the sports dollar for BB in Memphis than hockey in Montreal.

3. Add to that, isn't everyone in the Province a Canadiens fan (and a French Canadian separatist to boot 03-wink )? Not everyone in Memphis is a Tigers fan. It's the most major city near a lot of SEC schools, so the city is very infested with MissSt/OleMiss/UTk/etc types that dillute the fan bases reach.

>>>

In short, slow your roll man. The Canadiens are a franchise with no competition, in a city 3 times as large. It's not apples to apples and it's borderline rude to kick a city without being a little more circumspect.

I defend out of town fans (as one myself), but this goes after the city, which means a lot to some of us (I was born there and my entire family still resides there). This is a crap comparison and you know it.

Besides you want to get into sports fandom and loyalty to a team?

Look at these empty seats...

[Image: montreal-05-02-01-expos-tony-armas-jr-pi...amp;crop=1]

[Image: c03-pitch-21.jpg?w=1000]
05-25-2015 01:28 PM
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Sundanceuiuc Away
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Post: #11
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
My little rant aside. I'm confused.

Without donations, we're in the red (like most programs I imagine).

Did the total revenues go down $1.9M inclusive of donations?
Are total revenues without donations $1.9M in the red, and in the past been in the black (meaning we lost $1.9+ in straight cash)?

The original point and clarification don't seem to clarify the issue for me too much.

I assume the team made less money due to fewer tickets and some lower donation amounts. Do we have a good breakdown of the actual comparison, apples to apples?
05-25-2015 01:35 PM
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RandyMc Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
The numbers are primarily factors of cost accounting. For instance, the marginal cost of educating 400 student athletes is miniscule in a 22k university. Additionally, athletics scholarship costs paid by the university are paid to... the university. To the extent that real dollars are involved in the education of athletes, it's going from one bucket to another bucket in the same casing. It can be better argued that food & housing are real costs and the new stipends for "total cost of attendance" is real money but the other numbers need to be contextual in the overhead of the entire university. This is similar to spreading fixed costs of a business over all departments and operations even though you're going to pay those fixed costs regardless of the accounting method used to recognize the costs.

This fiction was particularly exposed in the after action analysis of UAB dropping football. Losing money you're not really spending is not really losing money.
05-25-2015 03:03 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 01:28 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  
(05-25-2015 12:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  It seems that Memphians are such fair weather, bandwagon fans, that there won't be enough demand to find 15,000 fans for 18 home games.

This part seems a little unfair for a variety of reasons, nevermind it's bad form to smack your own fanbase.

1. Montreal is MUCH larger than Memphis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal (1.6M proper / 4M metro)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Tennessee (650K proper / 1.34M metro)

2. There is no comparable franchise to the Canadiens in all of the Quebec region (and that will remain true until Quebec City gets its deserved expansion team). To be fair Ottawa is 2+ hours away.

Teams that are similar in type to Memphis Tigers BB that are <3 hours away (for the Ottawa comparison):
- Memphis Grizzlies (competing for same dollar)
- Mississippi State
- Ole Miss
- Vandy is exactly 3 hours via google maps

More competition for the sports dollar for BB in Memphis than hockey in Montreal.

3. Add to that, isn't everyone in the Province a Canadiens fan (and a French Canadian separatist to boot 03-wink )? Not everyone in Memphis is a Tigers fan. It's the most major city near a lot of SEC schools, so the city is very infested with MissSt/OleMiss/UTk/etc types that dillute the fan bases reach.

>>>

In short, slow your roll man. The Canadiens are a franchise with no competition, in a city 3 times as large. It's not apples to apples and it's borderline rude to kick a city without being a little more circumspect.

I defend out of town fans (as one myself), but this goes after the city, which means a lot to some of us (I was born there and my entire family still resides there). This is a crap comparison and you know it.

Besides you want to get into sports fandom and loyalty to a team?

Look at these empty seats...

[Image: montreal-05-02-01-expos-tony-armas-jr-pi...amp;crop=1]

[Image: c03-pitch-21.jpg?w=1000]

The CFL team draws over 20,000 fans per game with a 9 game regular season home schedule, 2 preseason games and playoffs, with an average ticket price of $75.

If you are going to throw Ole Miss and MSU into the mix, that inflates your potential fanbase by 3 million people.

The Expos were fine despite the fact that they played in the worst ballpark in the major leagues. Eventually, the park killed them along with 40% currency exchange against the US dollar.

Also, I never made the claim about Montrealers being die hard baseball fans. I know that we aren't. Most Memphians would make that claim about Memphis basketball fans.

In the end, this all boils down to the fact that even though we are all disappointed with not making a Sweet 16 or better in the last 6 years; overall, the product that has been put on the floor has been very good, and has been entertaining. The threat of a mass exodus and the extreme criticism of the basketball program does not compute if a fanbase considers itself to be die hard.
05-26-2015 09:55 AM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-25-2015 01:35 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  My little rant aside. I'm confused.

Without donations, we're in the red (like most programs I imagine).

Did the total revenues go down $1.9M inclusive of donations?
Are total revenues without donations $1.9M in the red, and in the past been in the black (meaning we lost $1.9+ in straight cash)?

The original point and clarification don't seem to clarify the issue for me too much.

I assume the team made less money due to fewer tickets and some lower donation amounts. Do we have a good breakdown of the actual comparison, apples to apples?

I would like to know that as well. My guess is that it relates directly to ticket sales exclusive of donations, but until someone has a definitive answer, we are all guessing.
05-26-2015 09:57 AM
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3601 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
The only way to make a dramatic change is to get the football team successful enough to where you can start requiring donations for FB tickets.
05-26-2015 01:10 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Breaking Down The $1.9 Million...
(05-26-2015 01:10 PM)3601 Wrote:  The only way to make a dramatic change is to get the football team successful enough to where you can start requiring donations for FB tickets.

If you could get 5,000 fans to give $10,000 spread out over 5 years, that would represent 1/3 of the funding needed for a $150 million OCS.
05-27-2015 02:56 AM
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