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Poll: Where do you believe all energy and matter in the universe originated from?
God - He created light, which Einstein says is the same thing as energy, from which all matter was then created
Matter was created from energy which has always existed in the Universe
Matter was created from energy which was appeared out of nothing
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Poll - Your Vote For Creation
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #1
Poll - Your Vote For Creation
We've been discussing this for a while. I thought this would be interesting to see in a poll.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2015 01:00 PM by UofMstateU.)
05-20-2015 12:53 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
Creation of what?
05-20-2015 12:54 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly
05-20-2015 03:33 PM
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shiftyeagle Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 12:54 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Creation of what?

The Fellowship of the Ring
05-20-2015 03:35 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.
05-20-2015 03:51 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #6
Re: RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?
05-20-2015 04:10 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  How about no one knows what happened before the big bang?

Why can't you just stop there?

The following comment is an attempt to 'disprove' something by fiat/implication.

That's not now, nor has it ever been 'proof' of anything. There's similarly no proof of aliens or Bigfoot or 'hookers with a heart of gold'

PLEASE stop
05-20-2015 04:59 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.
05-20-2015 05:12 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.

You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.
05-20-2015 05:18 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.

You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.

You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.
05-20-2015 05:31 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.

You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.

You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.

If you think you can narrow the entirety of the universe to just 3 poorly worded statements, with no other possibility, then I'm sure there's a nobel prize waiting for you. Let us know when you claim it.

Till then, these 3 statements don't even begin to cover every possibility.
05-20-2015 05:32 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:32 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.

You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.

You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.

If you think you can narrow the entirety of the universe to just 3 poorly worded statements, with no other possibility, then I'm sure there's a nobel prize waiting for you. Let us know when you claim it.

Till then, these 3 statements don't even begin to cover every possibility.

It actually does. Matter was:

1) Here since eternity
2) Created itself out of nothing
3) God created it

Those are the only possibilities. It really is a simple as that. We are here, one of those occurred. There is no other possibility because all possibilities have been accounted for. Stuff was either here forever, wasnt here and then was here, or God created it.
05-20-2015 05:38 PM
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200yrs2late Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Worded poorly as well. Energy and matter existed in the singularity so while not perfect, I think his two options suffice. Something caused it, and if nothing existed prior to the big bang except a tiny singularity, an outside force had to cause the singularity to expand. That outside force either exists in place where the laws of physics do not, or it was a divine act. Since there is no way to observe the universe prior to the big bang, there can be no evidence of any kind. Therefore you must accept divine intervention, or a set of theoretical physical laws we have no way of hypothesizing or testing.
If energy and or matter existed prior to the big bang shouldn't we assume that the laws of physics that they abide to also existed? (I know the laws of physics seem to "bend" in certain circumstances, but the evidence of their impact on energy and matter still exist) Wouldn't that rule out an outside force of non-divine or 'supernatural' intervention if the only thing that existed was the matter and energy in the singularity?

All we can do is ask questions. We have no way, nor will be likely have any means to test theories that do not apply to the laws of physics as we know them. The only choice is to accept the Word of God and have faith, or to believe in a set of theoretical physical laws that cannot be tested or proven. If science can only disprove a theory and there is no way to prove or disprove the theoretical physical laws that would have acted on the singularity to cause the big bang, science is no more useful to describe what caused the big bang than the lack of divine intervention is to disprove the belief in God's intervention.


As someone that believes in God, I love these discussion because you always end up with another question, another unknown. Physics and the laws of nature simply describe what God put into motion and in no way contradict with faith and belief in God. We know what He wants us to know. Seeking to understand what we currently don't understand isn't a sin, nor is trying to use science to further our knowledge. What the Bible says God did cannot be dis-proven by science, nor is a belief in God a violation of scientific laws or theories.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2015 05:49 PM by 200yrs2late.)
05-20-2015 05:46 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:38 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:32 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Sorry, but if you believe noone knows what happened, then you must also believe in the possibility of God.

One of the 3 happened. It's ok to say you dont know, but you cant say yo udont know what happened but know for certain there is no God.

You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.

You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.

If you think you can narrow the entirety of the universe to just 3 poorly worded statements, with no other possibility, then I'm sure there's a nobel prize waiting for you. Let us know when you claim it.

Till then, these 3 statements don't even begin to cover every possibility.

It actually does. Matter was:

1) Here since eternity
2) Created itself out of nothing
3) God created it

Those are the only possibilities. It really is a simple as that. We are here, one of those occurred. There is no other possibility because all possibilities have been accounted for. Stuff was either here forever, wasnt here and then was here, or God created it.

What is time when matter and energy are combined to disrupt space time? How can you define eternity when the concept of time is non-existent? Was it always? Was it never?

Have you heard of recent concepts that at the quantum level, nothing is really something? Free Floating Energy or something like that. It's just something I read in passing so I have no understanding of it, but if what we think is nothing is actually something, what do we really understand it to be?

If God created it, what created God? Is the thing that made God, a god? Is there a never ending chain of beings of a higher dimension that created a seemingly omniscient being stretching into eternity?

Is the creation of the universe a series of co-existing instances of existence and non-existence? What if there is more than one universe that is in a state of existence and non-existence? Where did those universes come from?

Is the universe a never ending cycle of big bang and big crunch? If the universe exists in a cyclical state, is it accurate to say that it has always existed? For example, is a circle an infinite line curled in on itself, or does it have a starting and ending point?

Is the event of horizon of a black hole a state of infinite time? Does that remove it from the universe and take it to something else entirely?

What exists outside of a universe (that is not included in what we consider a universe, whatever that may be)?

Other off topic, but related questions:

Think of a color that doesn't exist.

Think of a memory from before you were born.

How do we know that the entirety of existence isn't a figment of your (the readers) imagination? Or that everyone is in on acting a life for your fulfillment?

TL;DR

There are a lot of questions that we don't know the answer to. Worse, there are a lot of questions out there that we don't yet know we should be asking yet.

It is extremely arrogant to think that something as interesting and complex as the creation of, and the time preceding, the universe could only have 3 possible answers.

And I still maintain that the options are incredibly poorly worded, not only in intent but in grammatical syntax.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2015 05:55 PM by Kruciff.)
05-20-2015 05:52 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:46 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 04:10 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 03:33 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  None of these are adequate options. The options that don't succumb to superstition are worded terribly

How would you word them differently? Keep it to the creation of energy and matter. Not to anything that happened AFTER energy and matter were created.

How about no one knows what happened before the big bang? But no evidence suggests divine or supernatural intervention?

Worded poorly as well.

I was on my phone at the time.

The perfect options to me, would be simply 5 options:
  • Agnostic Atheist
  • Gnostic Atheist
  • Agnostic Theist
  • Gnostic Theist
  • I don't care / Have no opinion

The way they are worded now, I would never state it that way myself.
05-20-2015 05:55 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 05:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  You're right, I admit that there is a possibility for a god, just like there's a possibility that on the other side of the Big Bang lies a gigantic chimpanzee that spawns universes through the spontaneous combustion of his flung poo.

But I have no reason to believe either.

Nobody is insisting that you have to. I don't think you have to be so intentionally insulting in the way you phrase it, though.



(05-20-2015 05:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.

Okay (if you say so... I'm not qualified to say that it can ONLY be one of those three)... but because I'm not qualified, AND because 'having an opinion' on it doesn't really mean anything to me... i.e. it doesn't make me want to be a better person or whatever, then I don't really see a reason to guess, other than to throw a dart at a board. I don't mean to offend, merely telling you why I'm not answering. If I had to, I'd say A, but 'only' because I believe in God... and NOT because I think that 'everything from nothingness' is necessarily a requirement for my faith.
05-20-2015 06:04 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
You need a 4th option, which would be "Unknown" or "Don't know"
05-20-2015 06:18 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 06:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 05:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  You dont have to believe anything, however, one of the 3 above occurred.

Okay (if you say so... I'm not qualified to say that it can ONLY be one of those three)... but because I'm not qualified, AND because 'having an opinion' on it doesn't really mean anything to me... i.e. it doesn't make me want to be a better person or whatever, then I don't really see a reason to guess, other than to throw a dart at a board. I don't mean to offend, merely telling you why I'm not answering. If I had to, I'd say A, but 'only' because I believe in God... and NOT because I think that 'everything from nothingness' is necessarily a requirement for my faith.

Its valid because its a reduction of matter and energy to a state of existence. Something either exists or it doesnt. Since we know that matter and energy exists today, then we have only two options for how it got here.

Let's take my first poll option off the table for a moment, and simplify to the only two states. Because energy and matter exist today, then energy and matter either:

1) Always existed
2) Didnt exist, then did exist

Thats it. There is no in-between or pseudo-exist answer. Those are the ONLY TWO OPTIONS.

Now, we may not have any PROOF of which one occurred, but because matter exists today, we know for a FACT one of them occurred. The reason we know for a fact one of them occurred is because we start with the foundation that a fact exists (energy/matter exists now) and we have simplified its prior existence down to one of the only two states possible; it either always existed, or at one point didnt exist, and now does.

The examination of the creation of energy and matter in this way is really heavy for some, because it cuts through all of the noise and crap of irrelevant other information. Discussion of evolution and religion is simply background noise when discussing the existence of God. Evolution could be a fact. But that is completely irrelevant as to whether or not God exists.

Some will not want to answer the question. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. However, one of these occurred. And if anyone really wants to challenge their current belief, thats what they have to reconcile in their head.
05-20-2015 06:38 PM
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RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
I'm still debating Jupiter vs. Zeus.
05-20-2015 07:02 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Poll - Your Vote For Creation
(05-20-2015 03:35 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(05-20-2015 12:54 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Creation of what?

The Fellowship of the Ring

Forged in the fires of Mount Doom.

Anything else I can help with?
05-20-2015 07:22 PM
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