Quote:WASHINGTON — Notre Dame's athletic director and Northwestern's president emeritus said Tuesday that if college athletes ultimately are ruled to be employees of their respective schools, they foresee their universities withdrawing from the current setup of big-time sports.

Their comments come as the full National Labor Relations Board continues to deliberate about an effort to unionize scholarship football players at Northwestern. In addition, there are a range of pending federal court cases concerning athlete compensation, including one alleging that the NCAA and schools are violating the wage-and-hour provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act by not allowing athletes to be paid at least the federal minimum wage.

"Notre Dame's just not prepared to participate in any model where the athlete isn't a student first and foremost — that's the hallmark for us," Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick told USA TODAY Sports after a Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics meeting here during which he appeared as a panelist. "If the entire model were to move toward athletes as employees, we'd head in a different direction. Our president has been clear about that. I'm not articulating a unique position."

more at link
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/col.../27624809/

Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Some guesses:

Rice would jump at a conference like this.

Tulane, Wake Forest, and SMU would need a bit of convincing.

Miami, TCU, Baylor, and USC wouldn't be interested.

(05-20-2015 10:03 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Some guesses:

Rice would jump at a conference like this.

Tulane, Wake Forest, and SMU would need a bit of convincing.

Miami, TCU, Baylor, and USC wouldn't be interested.

Oh, I still would want ND to be a football independent and a (non-football) affiliate member of such an organization.... :)

SMU would definitely take a look

(05-20-2015 10:03 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Some guesses:

Rice would jump at a conference like this.

Tulane, Wake Forest, and SMU would need a bit of convincing.

Miami, TCU, Baylor, and USC wouldn't be interested.

You can scratch Duke and Syracuse off of that list as well. Neither school is going to do anything to jeopardize their position in basketball.

being "employees" will be a disaster for most of the morons that support this

once they are subjected to the employee code of conduct and immediately being FIRED for breaking that code of conduct they will be getting kicked out of universities by the thousands yearly

there is not going to be two classes of "employees" where regular employees like janitors and repair staff ect are subjected to one set of rules and "pretend" employee athletes are subjected to a different set of rules

things like implied sexual harassment, "harmless" comments to other regular students ect that in the past would have been brushed off as students being students and "guys being guys" will now be no different than any other employee saying things to regular students and being reported for it and disciplined for it

any university that thinks they can get around this will find themselves in court pretty much in a heart beat.......either by current or past employees that were disciplined or let go for certain conduct or by regular students that do not appreciate university "employees" harassing them no matter how many touchdowns they have scored

mandatory drug testing that will now have to actually be reported on VS covered up in the past, on campus behavior of all types, physical fights, rude comments, in class behaviors all will have to result in "firings" or long "employment reviews" with the athlete sitting out part or all of the season while those reviews are carried out are going to be the norm

no more "hiring" athletes that need a "second chance" after they were fired from their last university unless you want to open the university to hiring all kinds of abusers and users in other university positions (or face a lawsuit) and unless you want to expose yourself even more to lawsuits about "hiring" athletes with known issues and exposing your customers (regular students) to those types of employees

standard coed break ups with he said she said and the university able to keep a lid on it will now be cases where the "employee" being accused of something will have to be removed from contact with the accuser until all investigations are complete and unless there is a clear finding of innocence they will probably have to be placed away from casual contact with the accuser

this will probably also severely limit the ability to "hire" new recruits with questionable high school police records unless you again want to expose the university to having to hire others for regular university positions with police records and expose the university to major lawsuits as soon as their questionable "hire" assaults another regular student

this will serve to clear a ton of knuckleheads off campus and hopefully keep a ton more from ever setting foot on campus, but at what cost to the universities overall in liability and employment lawsuits before they figure out they are not going to be able to have a special class of "employees" that are athletes VS other employees

(05-20-2015 09:20 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  

Quote:WASHINGTON — Notre Dame's athletic director and Northwestern's president emeritus said Tuesday that if college athletes ultimately are ruled to be employees of their respective schools, they foresee their universities withdrawing from the current setup of big-time sports.

Their comments come as the full National Labor Relations Board continues to deliberate about an effort to unionize scholarship football players at Northwestern. In addition, there are a range of pending federal court cases concerning athlete compensation, including one alleging that the NCAA and schools are violating the wage-and-hour provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act by not allowing athletes to be paid at least the federal minimum wage.

"Notre Dame's just not prepared to participate in any model where the athlete isn't a student first and foremost — that's the hallmark for us," Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick told USA TODAY Sports after a Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics meeting here during which he appeared as a panelist. "If the entire model were to move toward athletes as employees, we'd head in a different direction. Our president has been clear about that. I'm not articulating a unique position."

more at link
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/col.../27624809/

Is Notre Dame willing to give up the $20M+ a year that NBC is paying? I am sure NBC is not paying out all of that money to watch 2* scholar-athletes in gold helmets playing Case Western Reserve or Lehigh.

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Pac 12 and Big 10 schools.

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Wake Forest

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

We could see a small "pro" division form with 30-40 teams willing to take the player-employee model. If teams like Notre Dame walk away, then many others will have no problem doing so either bc they'll still be affiliated with a big program. Many smaller schools will also take the high road bc they can't afford the employee model and this saves face.

(05-20-2015 10:21 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  being "employees" will be a disaster for most of the morons that support this

once they are subjected to the employee code of conduct and immediately being FIRED for breaking that code of conduct they will be getting kicked out of universities by the thousands yearly

there is not going to be two classes of "employees" where regular employees like janitors and repair staff ect are subjected to one set of rules and "pretend" employee athletes are subjected to a different set of rules

things like implied sexual harassment, "harmless" comments to other regular students ect that in the past would have been brushed off as students being students and "guys being guys" will now be no different than any other employee saying things to regular students and being reported for it and disciplined for it

any university that thinks they can get around this will find themselves in court pretty much in a heart beat.......either by current or past employees that were disciplined or let go for certain conduct or by regular students that do not appreciate university "employees" harassing them no matter how many touchdowns they have scored

mandatory drug testing that will now have to actually be reported on VS covered up in the past, on campus behavior of all types, physical fights, rude comments, in class behaviors all will have to result in "firings" or long "employment reviews" with the athlete sitting out part or all of the season while those reviews are carried out are going to be the norm

no more "hiring" athletes that need a "second chance" after they were fired from their last university unless you want to open the university to hiring all kinds of abusers and users in other university positions (or face a lawsuit) and unless you want to expose yourself even more to lawsuits about "hiring" athletes with known issues and exposing your customers (regular students) to those types of employees

standard coed break ups with he said she said and the university able to keep a lid on it will now be cases where the "employee" being accused of something will have to be removed from contact with the accuser until all investigations are complete and unless there is a clear finding of innocence they will probably have to be placed away from casual contact with the accuser

this will probably also severely limit the ability to "hire" new recruits with questionable high school police records unless you again want to expose the university to having to hire others for regular university positions with police records and expose the university to major lawsuits as soon as their questionable "hire" assaults another regular student

this will serve to clear a ton of knuckleheads off campus and hopefully keep a ton more from ever setting foot on campus, but at what cost to the universities overall in liability and employment lawsuits before they figure out they are not going to be able to have a special class of "employees" that are athletes VS other employees

Wonderful post, but this won't hit quite that hard... ...from this angle.

1. After a rough first year, kids will wisen up and clean up their act - especially since there is money on the line. At $x.xx/per hour, people begin to watch their mouth.

2. Universities are willing to lie and cheat to defend their football programs. I don't think you realize that the rabbit hole can go much further down than it already has.

Where it will hurt is in attendance. Students won't feel connected to random employees like they do to student-athletes. It will be harder to convince people that they are really supporting the UNIVERSITY of Alabama at Bryant-Denny. The sport would become a little more "fake", and that won't help viewership numbers.

Remove the scholastic element, and what you have is a variant of the D-League.

(05-20-2015 10:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

Wake Forest

I think much of the ACC would go, with only Florida State and Clemson choosing the employee model.

UNC is already using the employee model.

(05-20-2015 10:38 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 10:21 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  being "employees" will be a disaster for most of the morons that support this

once they are subjected to the employee code of conduct and immediately being FIRED for breaking that code of conduct they will be getting kicked out of universities by the thousands yearly

there is not going to be two classes of "employees" where regular employees like janitors and repair staff ect are subjected to one set of rules and "pretend" employee athletes are subjected to a different set of rules

things like implied sexual harassment, "harmless" comments to other regular students ect that in the past would have been brushed off as students being students and "guys being guys" will now be no different than any other employee saying things to regular students and being reported for it and disciplined for it

any university that thinks they can get around this will find themselves in court pretty much in a heart beat.......either by current or past employees that were disciplined or let go for certain conduct or by regular students that do not appreciate university "employees" harassing them no matter how many touchdowns they have scored

mandatory drug testing that will now have to actually be reported on VS covered up in the past, on campus behavior of all types, physical fights, rude comments, in class behaviors all will have to result in "firings" or long "employment reviews" with the athlete sitting out part or all of the season while those reviews are carried out are going to be the norm

no more "hiring" athletes that need a "second chance" after they were fired from their last university unless you want to open the university to hiring all kinds of abusers and users in other university positions (or face a lawsuit) and unless you want to expose yourself even more to lawsuits about "hiring" athletes with known issues and exposing your customers (regular students) to those types of employees

standard coed break ups with he said she said and the university able to keep a lid on it will now be cases where the "employee" being accused of something will have to be removed from contact with the accuser until all investigations are complete and unless there is a clear finding of innocence they will probably have to be placed away from casual contact with the accuser

this will probably also severely limit the ability to "hire" new recruits with questionable high school police records unless you again want to expose the university to having to hire others for regular university positions with police records and expose the university to major lawsuits as soon as their questionable "hire" assaults another regular student

this will serve to clear a ton of knuckleheads off campus and hopefully keep a ton more from ever setting foot on campus, but at what cost to the universities overall in liability and employment lawsuits before they figure out they are not going to be able to have a special class of "employees" that are athletes VS other employees

Wonderful post, but this won't hit quite that hard... ...from this angle.

1. After a rough first year, kids will wisen up and clean up their act - especially since there is money on the line. At $x.xx/per hour, people begin to watch their mouth.

2. Universities are willing to lie and cheat to defend their football programs. I don't think you realize that the rabbit hole can go much further down than it already has.

Where it will hurt is in attendance. Students won't feel connected to random employees like they do to student-athletes. It will be harder to convince people that they are really supporting the UNIVERSITY of Alabama at Bryant-Denny. The sport would become a little more "fake", and that won't help viewership numbers.

Remove the scholastic element, and what you have is a variant of the D-League.

I don't know about your example. My understanding is that most Alabama fans have zero connection to the academic side of the house. I don't think they would really care if Amani Cooper was there to study sociology or route trees as long as they are winning on Saturday.

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

But Terry, you said Notre Dame would pay whatever it takes to keep the gravy train running. Well, ok, you didn't say "gravy grain"

If the Big Ten opts for a Div 3 model as Delany once intimated, there you go. Problem solved. Plug and play. Network ready.

(05-20-2015 10:25 AM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:20 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  

Quote:WASHINGTON — Notre Dame's athletic director and Northwestern's president emeritus said Tuesday that if college athletes ultimately are ruled to be employees of their respective schools, they foresee their universities withdrawing from the current setup of big-time sports.

Their comments come as the full National Labor Relations Board continues to deliberate about an effort to unionize scholarship football players at Northwestern. In addition, there are a range of pending federal court cases concerning athlete compensation, including one alleging that the NCAA and schools are violating the wage-and-hour provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act by not allowing athletes to be paid at least the federal minimum wage.

"Notre Dame's just not prepared to participate in any model where the athlete isn't a student first and foremost — that's the hallmark for us," Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick told USA TODAY Sports after a Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics meeting here during which he appeared as a panelist. "If the entire model were to move toward athletes as employees, we'd head in a different direction. Our president has been clear about that. I'm not articulating a unique position."

more at link
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/col.../27624809/

Is Notre Dame willing to give up the $20M+ a year that NBC is paying? I am sure NBC is not paying out all of that money to watch 2* scholar-athletes in gold helmets playing Case Western Reserve or Lehigh.

It does sound like a bluff when you consider that Notre Dame is paying Brian Kelly $4 million/year, one of 63 teams paying their head football coaches at least $2 million/year per that link. Given what coordinators and other top assistants make at the biggest programs, ND is likely paying out at least $2 million/year more for the combined salaries of Kelly's assistants. If college football players now on scholarship were paid an average of, say, $25,000 a year, the combined pay for 85 football players would still only be $2.125 million. The notion that Notre Dame can't afford that is ludicrous. It's also ludicrous that "principle" somehow would keep them from paying those relatively low wages to athletes who generate 10 to 50 times that much in revenue for the university.

(05-20-2015 10:21 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  being "employees" will be a disaster for most of the morons that support this

once they are subjected to the employee code of conduct and immediately being FIRED for breaking that code of conduct they will be getting kicked out of universities by the thousands yearly

there is not going to be two classes of "employees" where regular employees like janitors and repair staff ect are subjected to one set of rules and "pretend" employee athletes are subjected to a different set of rules

things like implied sexual harassment, "harmless" comments to other regular students ect that in the past would have been brushed off as students being students and "guys being guys" will now be no different than any other employee saying things to regular students and being reported for it and disciplined for it

any university that thinks they can get around this will find themselves in court pretty much in a heart beat.......either by current or past employees that were disciplined or let go for certain conduct or by regular students that do not appreciate university "employees" harassing them no matter how many touchdowns they have scored

mandatory drug testing that will now have to actually be reported on VS covered up in the past, on campus behavior of all types, physical fights, rude comments, in class behaviors all will have to result in "firings" or long "employment reviews" with the athlete sitting out part or all of the season while those reviews are carried out are going to be the norm

no more "hiring" athletes that need a "second chance" after they were fired from their last university unless you want to open the university to hiring all kinds of abusers and users in other university positions (or face a lawsuit) and unless you want to expose yourself even more to lawsuits about "hiring" athletes with known issues and exposing your customers (regular students) to those types of employees

standard coed break ups with he said she said and the university able to keep a lid on it will now be cases where the "employee" being accused of something will have to be removed from contact with the accuser until all investigations are complete and unless there is a clear finding of innocence they will probably have to be placed away from casual contact with the accuser

this will probably also severely limit the ability to "hire" new recruits with questionable high school police records unless you again want to expose the university to having to hire others for regular university positions with police records and expose the university to major lawsuits as soon as their questionable "hire" assaults another regular student

this will serve to clear a ton of knuckleheads off campus and hopefully keep a ton more from ever setting foot on campus, but at what cost to the universities overall in liability and employment lawsuits before they figure out they are not going to be able to have a special class of "employees" that are athletes VS other employees

There is nothing wrong with any of your predicted outcomes. What is the big deal, anyway? So, they will be employees. So what?

Is your solution to continue with the "Student-athlete" fiction?

(05-20-2015 10:50 AM)SeaBlue Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, if that is their position (and I respect it), then ND may have to withdraw from big time athletics.

Oh well, nothing lasts forever.

ND can help create another model, perhaps in conjunction with other private schools.

Who knows if that came about, which privates (and maybe service academies) would follow ND out the door???


Notre Dame
Stanford
Duke
BC
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Syracuse
Army
Navy
Air Force


Any other possible candidates for this hypothetic model?

But Terry, you said Notre Dame would pay whatever it takes to keep the gravy train running. Well, ok, you didn't say "gravy grain"

If the Big Ten opts for a Div 3 model as Delany once intimated, there you go. Problem solved. Plug and play. Network ready.

Lol, I say lots of things.

I am often wrong, but never shy!

Say no to the Big Ten, though, always.

(05-20-2015 10:53 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 10:25 AM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 09:20 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  

Quote:WASHINGTON — Notre Dame's athletic director and Northwestern's president emeritus said Tuesday that if college athletes ultimately are ruled to be employees of their respective schools, they foresee their universities withdrawing from the current setup of big-time sports.

Their comments come as the full National Labor Relations Board continues to deliberate about an effort to unionize scholarship football players at Northwestern. In addition, there are a range of pending federal court cases concerning athlete compensation, including one alleging that the NCAA and schools are violating the wage-and-hour provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act by not allowing athletes to be paid at least the federal minimum wage.

"Notre Dame's just not prepared to participate in any model where the athlete isn't a student first and foremost — that's the hallmark for us," Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick told USA TODAY Sports after a Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics meeting here during which he appeared as a panelist. "If the entire model were to move toward athletes as employees, we'd head in a different direction. Our president has been clear about that. I'm not articulating a unique position."

more at link
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/col.../27624809/

Is Notre Dame willing to give up the $20M+ a year that NBC is paying? I am sure NBC is not paying out all of that money to watch 2* scholar-athletes in gold helmets playing Case Western Reserve or Lehigh.

It does sound like a bluff when you consider that Notre Dame is paying Brian Kelly $4 million/year, one of 63 teams paying their head football coaches at least $2 million/year per that link. Given what coordinators and other top assistants make at the biggest programs, ND is likely paying out at least $2 million/year more for the combined salaries of Kelly's assistants. If college football players now on scholarship were paid an average of, say, $25,000 a year, the combined pay for 85 football players would still only be $2.125 million. The notion that Notre Dame can't afford that is ludicrous. It's also ludicrous that "principle" somehow would keep them from paying those relatively low wages to athletes who generate 10 to 50 times that much in revenue for the university.

Employees would be free to negotiate a salary they deem to be of their worth to the university or otherwise find a place that will.
Perhaps going the Grand Canyon Univ. model and have ND go on the stock exchange and then the athletes could get stock options. The better they perform the better their stock price will increase and make more money than a salary.