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Keith Law back at it today...
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-15-2015 05:49 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  I figured Wade would chime in at some point. I find it interesting that Mr. Law has deleted Wade's tweets from his twitter feed...the 14th of May is just a couple of tweets some replying to other people but not to Wade.

It just shows you how big of a turd he actually is. He's a bully who can dish it out but can't take it. A cyber bully of the worst kind. I'm rather surprised he still has a job at ESPN to be perfectly honest, but I guess as long as he isn't attacking ESPN (ala Bill Simmons) or going over the bounds racially, he keeps his paycheck.
05-16-2015 08:38 AM
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elf owl Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
Keith Law is manufacturing propaganda pure and simple. There is journalistic and intellectual dishonesty in his obsessively clinging to the idee fixe of WG, ruiner of pitching prospects, long after the facts quit bearing out his narrative. His vendetta against Rice's baseball coach is an embarrassment to journalistic integrity and casts doubt over Mr law's objectivity and his powers of observation. He deserves to be chastised or ignored. I suggest the latter because the incorrigible aren't capable of self monitoring their own negative tendencies and persist in error: they never learn.

Why Mr Law maintains a discredited thesis is still relevant today (and proceeds to advertise these "observations" as facts when the real facts clearly indicate otherwise) is a question which deserves answering. In my mind this kind of behavior deserves the name bullying and should be written off as an Irrelevant and annoying distraction not to be taken seriously by those who value honesty.
05-16-2015 08:58 AM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
Perhaps ESPN would rein in Law if they felt heat from a possible lawsuit from Wade, Wayne, or Rice which might include ESPN. Until then I think they are fine with the publicity.
05-16-2015 09:21 AM
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mebehutchi Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
What Wade's response drives home is that KLaw could easily pick up the phone or send an email to any or all of the people he writes about and maybe learn something new/factual/interesting in the process, including that #37 and the baseball world may have changed the way they handle pitchers over time (60 years of history from the OG would seem like a cool conversation, no?). Yet, he's too lazy to do so, and remains less informed than the average Parliament poster. Modern journalism at its finest.
05-16-2015 09:58 AM
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dragon2owl Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
More to come...

Quote:Paul Doyle ‏@PHDOYLE 12 hours ago
@KoontzOncology @keithlaw @espn @Ricestudpoker we will be publishing article writer's messages to Wade Monday. He is an embarrassment
05-16-2015 10:14 AM
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smackdaddy Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-16-2015 10:14 AM)dragon2owl Wrote:  More to come...

Quote:Paul Doyle ‏@PHDOYLE 12 hours ago
@KoontzOncology @keithlaw @espn @Ricestudpoker we will be publishing article writer's messages to Wade Monday. He is an embarrassment

Who's Wade Monday? Did the OG blow out every joint in his body, too?? Sad.
05-16-2015 12:47 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-17-2015 11:27 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  keith law is a 41 year old man desperate for relevance....thinks he's being cheated despite the fact that he is lacking in integrity and is also incompetent and lazy since he doesn't verify his comments....a veritable piece of pretentious s*it.... :)

Hahaha, why don't you tell us what you really think?!? 03-rotfl
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2015 01:11 AM by mrbig.)
05-18-2015 01:10 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-17-2015 11:27 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  keith law is a 41 year old man desperate for relevance....thinks he's being cheated despite the fact that he is lacking in integrity and is also incompetent and lazy since he doesn't verify his comments....a veritable piece of pretentious s*it.... :)

Yes!
05-18-2015 08:53 AM
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johncatworth Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
This whole argument has little statistical evidence to back it up. Looking only at total innings, according to thebaseballcube.com, Nationals pitcher Jordan Zimmerman threw 53, 87, and 78 innings in college at UW-Stevens Point, and ended up with TJ surgery later, while Strasburg threw 37, 97, and 109 and also had TJ. Max Scherzer threw 20, 106, and 80 at Missou, and hasn't had serious arm trouble. By comparison, Cole St Clair threw 47, 74, 28, and 62 innings...so if Law is to be believed, then Zimm and St Clair should've been fine and Scherzer's arm should be falling off thanks to that 106 inning year. Nolan Ryan never bought the whole innings limit theory, and I'm certainly not impressed with Law's 'argument' if you can call it that. Just for comparison, Juan Marichal threw 245 innings as a 20 year old minor leaguer in 1958 and went on to 16 years in the majors.
05-18-2015 11:44 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-18-2015 11:44 PM)johncatworth Wrote:  This whole argument has little statistical evidence to back it up. Looking only at total innings, according to thebaseballcube.com, Nationals pitcher Jordan Zimmerman threw 53, 87, and 78 innings in college at UW-Stevens Point, and ended up with TJ surgery later, while Strasburg threw 37, 97, and 109 and also had TJ. Max Scherzer threw 20, 106, and 80 at Missou, and hasn't had serious arm trouble. By comparison, Cole St Clair threw 47, 74, 28, and 62 innings...so if Law is to be believed, then Zimm and St Clair should've been fine and Scherzer's arm should be falling off thanks to that 106 inning year. Nolan Ryan never bought the whole innings limit theory, and I'm certainly not impressed with Law's 'argument' if you can call it that. Just for comparison, Juan Marichal threw 245 innings as a 20 year old minor leaguer in 1958 and went on to 16 years in the majors.

You give 6 partial anecdotes to disprove "Law's argument"? Strive for better!

Law isn't talking about innings pitched, he's talking about pitch counts. Both are important, as are a bunch of other factors (individual physiology, mechanics, rest, stress of the actual pitches thrown, blah, blah).

On a broader scale, this isn't "Law's argument." He's merely a vocal mouthpiece calling attention to what he believes is a problem of overusing young pitchers. The ideas behind this argument aren't his, please don't give him that much credit. The general argument is made by people with a lot more impressive credentials than Keith Law.
http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=re...nStatement
http://www.stopsportsinjuries.org/baseba...ntion.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435945/
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 12:39 AM by mrbig.)
05-19-2015 12:38 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-19-2015 12:38 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(05-18-2015 11:44 PM)johncatworth Wrote:  This whole argument has little statistical evidence to back it up. Looking only at total innings, according to thebaseballcube.com, Nationals pitcher Jordan Zimmerman threw 53, 87, and 78 innings in college at UW-Stevens Point, and ended up with TJ surgery later, while Strasburg threw 37, 97, and 109 and also had TJ. Max Scherzer threw 20, 106, and 80 at Missou, and hasn't had serious arm trouble. By comparison, Cole St Clair threw 47, 74, 28, and 62 innings...so if Law is to be believed, then Zimm and St Clair should've been fine and Scherzer's arm should be falling off thanks to that 106 inning year. Nolan Ryan never bought the whole innings limit theory, and I'm certainly not impressed with Law's 'argument' if you can call it that. Just for comparison, Juan Marichal threw 245 innings as a 20 year old minor leaguer in 1958 and went on to 16 years in the majors.

You give 6 partial anecdotes to disprove "Law's argument"? Strive for better!

Law isn't talking about innings pitched, he's talking about pitch counts. Both are important, as are a bunch of other factors (individual physiology, mechanics, rest, stress of the actual pitches thrown, blah, blah).

On a broader scale, this isn't "Law's argument." He's merely a vocal mouthpiece calling attention to what he believes is a problem of overusing young pitchers. The ideas behind this argument aren't his, please don't give him that much credit. The general argument is made by people with a lot more impressive credentials than Keith Law.
http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=re...nStatement
http://www.stopsportsinjuries.org/baseba...ntion.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435945/

Agree with all of this, but the fact remains that Keith Law's continuing vendetta against Wayne Graham is not well researched, as Coach has been unfairly singled out for a practice that was commonplace through the early 2000s....and one in which The OG himself has changed his approach to since the 2004 season. Prior to 2003/04, almost every elite program in college baseball had a tendency to "ride" its starting weekend pitchers; frequently having them throw to pitch counts exceeding 120 pitches per game. Coach Graham was by no means the worst offender in this regard. Marquess at Stanford and Childress at Nebraska were the real poster childs of pitcher abuse, and both continued the practice into the late 2000s, long after Graham changed his approach. Second, no Rice starter after 2004-- not Savery, and certainly not Ber-ry or Kubitza-- were even close to being overused based on pitch count....and for Keith Law to throw those two names into his Wayne Graham-bashing pot is factually baselesss. One could argue than St.Clair was overused a bit, based on the frequency of his appearances (and quite often for 2 - 3 innings each), BUT the truth is that CSC's injury at Rice had absolutely nothing to do with his pitching (as it was a weight-room injury), and the use of Cole paled next to that of his TeamUSA coach the Summer after his Sophomore season.
05-19-2015 05:23 AM
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ArmChairOwl Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
(05-19-2015 05:23 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(05-19-2015 12:38 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(05-18-2015 11:44 PM)johncatworth Wrote:  This whole argument has little statistical evidence to back it up. Looking only at total innings, according to thebaseballcube.com, Nationals pitcher Jordan Zimmerman threw 53, 87, and 78 innings in college at UW-Stevens Point, and ended up with TJ surgery later, while Strasburg threw 37, 97, and 109 and also had TJ. Max Scherzer threw 20, 106, and 80 at Missou, and hasn't had serious arm trouble. By comparison, Cole St Clair threw 47, 74, 28, and 62 innings...so if Law is to be believed, then Zimm and St Clair should've been fine and Scherzer's arm should be falling off thanks to that 106 inning year. Nolan Ryan never bought the whole innings limit theory, and I'm certainly not impressed with Law's 'argument' if you can call it that. Just for comparison, Juan Marichal threw 245 innings as a 20 year old minor leaguer in 1958 and went on to 16 years in the majors.

You give 6 partial anecdotes to disprove "Law's argument"? Strive for better!

Law isn't talking about innings pitched, he's talking about pitch counts. Both are important, as are a bunch of other factors (individual physiology, mechanics, rest, stress of the actual pitches thrown, blah, blah).

On a broader scale, this isn't "Law's argument." He's merely a vocal mouthpiece calling attention to what he believes is a problem of overusing young pitchers. The ideas behind this argument aren't his, please don't give him that much credit. The general argument is made by people with a lot more impressive credentials than Keith Law.
http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=re...nStatement
http://www.stopsportsinjuries.org/baseba...ntion.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435945/

Agree with all of this, but the fact remains that Keith Law's continuing vendetta against Wayne Graham is not well researched, as Coach has been unfairly singled out for a practice that was commonplace through the early 2000s....and one in which The OG himself has changed his approach to since the 2004 season. Prior to 2003/04, almost every elite program in college baseball had a tendency to "ride" its starting weekend pitchers; frequently having them throw to pitch counts exceeding 120 pitches per game. Coach Graham was by no means the worst offender in this regard. Marquess at Stanford and Childress at Nebraska were the real poster childs of pitcher abuse, and both continued the practice into the late 2000s, long after Graham changed his approach. Second, no Rice starter after 2004-- not Savery, and certainly not Ber-ry or Kubitza-- were even close to being overused based on pitch count....and for Keith Law to throw those two names into his Wayne Graham-bashing pot is factually baselesss. One could argue than St.Clair was overused a bit, based on the frequency of his appearances (and quite often for 2 - 3 innings each), BUT the truth is that CSC's injury at Rice had absolutely nothing to do with his pitching (as it was a weight-room injury), and the use of Cole paled next to that of his TeamUSA coach the Summer after his Sophomore season.

Has he ever mentioned Augie Garrido?
http://blog.chron.com/sportsjustice/2009...about-him/
05-19-2015 06:11 AM
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bobreinhold1 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
Heard on the Cardinal-Met game last night that the Mets had Jerry Koosman on a 145 pitch count and Nolan Ryan on a 155 pitch count.
05-19-2015 08:02 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
Keith Law has called out Garrido many, many times.
05-19-2015 08:15 AM
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smackdaddy Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Keith Law back at it today...
Any chance this vendetta has anything to do with Law's own failures on the mound? I mean, like Keith, I'm unwilling to do any actual research, BUT I do know how to anagram like a boss!

KEITH LAW = HE WALK IT
05-19-2015 08:45 AM
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