Given that part of the problem is that certain schools do not want to play other certain schools such as FSU and Clemson having little desire to play BC, Syracuse, WF, or Duke, I wonder if a possible solution can be found with unequal divisions such as 6 and 8 or 5 and 9, whereby the larger division is predisposed to playing 9 conference games while the smaller division plays just 8.

We know that FSU, Clemson, GT, and Louisville are predisposed to only playing 8 league games, and that it would be the preference of NC State, Duke, and VT to just play 8 league games, although they might be more amenable to a 9 game schedule if the other division mates are right for them.

6 School Division

FSU - Miami
Clemson - NC State
GT - WF/Pitt/BC/Syracuse
VT - UVa
Louisville - WF/BC/Pitt/Syracuse
Duke - UNC

These would play 5-1-2 or 5-3

8 School Division

Miami - FSU
WF
NCSU - Clemson
UNC - Duke
UVa - VT
Pitt
BC
Syracuse

These would play 7-1-2

FSU would get the following:

Miami
Clemson
GT
VT
Duke
Louisville
BC/Pitt/Syracuse
NCSU/UNC/WF/UVa

Clemson gets:

FSU
GT
VT
Duke
Louisville
NC State
UNC/WF/Miami
BC/Syracuse/Pitt/UVa

UNC gets

Duke
UVa
NC State
Miami
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
WF
FSU/Clemson/GT/Louisville/VT

NC State gets

Clemson
UNC
Miami
UVa
BC
Syracuse
WF
Pitt
FSU/VT/Louisville/Duke/GT

I'm sure something about this is unfair, but if one division is okay with 9 games and the other only with 8, then that's a way to increase more teams seeing other teams. The math might not even work out, but short of allowing schools to designate one or two schools that they do not want to play but perhaps once a decade I don't know what else works.

This is how the old SEC worked, and GT notoriously refused to play in Mississippi for many years, IIRC. Indeed even with 13,12,11 and then 10 schools, the old SEC only required 6 or 7 conference games until sometime in the late 60's or 70's, iirc.

Unequal sized divisions I don't think are outlawed, as the MAC does that now (granted they only have 13 teams), but the math gets real fuzzy when trying to get the schedules right. You end up with more intra-division games to be played on one side, than the other. But half the teams playing more games than the other half would be a no go I would imagine, both with the NCAA, and with member schools.

Also note: I don't think Louisville would oppose a nine game schedule. Doesn't really matter to us. We play everyone home and home anyway, and really don't do guarantee games other than FBS, so it makes no difference if it's playing another ACC school, or say Marshall, it doesn't affect our number of home games.

(05-13-2015 03:49 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Unequal sized divisions I don't think are outlawed, as the MAC does that now (granted they only have 13 teams), but the math gets real fuzzy when trying to get the schedules right. You end up with more intra-division games to be played on one side, than the other. But half the teams playing more games than the other half would be a no go I would imagine, both with the NCAA, and with member schools.

Also note: I don't think Louisville would oppose a nine game schedule. Doesn't really matter to us. We play everyone home and home anyway, and really don't do guarantee games other than FBS, so it makes no difference if it's playing another ACC school, or say Marshall, it doesn't affect our number of home games.

FSU, Clemson, and GT are staunchly opposed to a 9th conference game. A ninth game is not popular at Duke.

I don't know why one division would need to play the same number of games since that is not done in baseball.

(05-13-2015 06:09 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I don't know why one division would need to play the same number of games since that is not done in baseball.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your post, but currently all 14 ACC baseball programs play 30 conference games a year. At least before the inevitably rain-outs that cause some teams to only play 28 or 29 ACC games.

I think that could get hairy. What happens in this scenario?

7-1 FSU beats 9-0 Miami in the conference championship game...who then goes to the CFP or Orange Bowl?

FSU would be 8-1 with the head to head win over Miami in the championship game but Miami would be 9-1, technically have the better record (including an in-season win over FSU).

As I type that, I guess the Orange Bowl wouldn't really be affected as the champ goes there but the CFP picture could be crazy.

According the rule book - it's allowable:

17.9.5.2 Annual Exemptions. [FBS/FCS] The maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:
(Revised: 10/28/10)
(a) Spring Game. [FBS/FCS] One contest at the conclusion of the spring practice period [see Bylaw 17.9.4-
(a)], provided the contest is against a team composed of bona fide alumni or students or both; (Revised:
1/10/90)
(b) Heritage Bowl. [FBS] Participation in the Heritage Bowl held between representatives of the Mid-
Eastern Athletic Conference and the Southwestern Athletic Conference, which shall meet the reporting
requirements set forth in Bylaw 18.7.2 in order to be exempt; (Adopted: 1/10/91, Revised: 1/10/92)
© Twelve-Member Conference Championship Game. [FBS/FCS] A conference championship game
between division champions of a member conference of 12 or more institutions that is divided into two
divisions (of six or more institutions each), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition
among the members of that division;

As I read this, the smaller division can have no fewer than 6. The larger division is bounded by a round-robin in that division so that's effectively 9 schools, perhaps 10 at the most.

(05-13-2015 06:30 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  According the rule book - it's allowable:

© Twelve-Member Conference Championship Game. [FBS/FCS] A conference championship game
between division champions of a member conference of 12 or more institutions that is divided into two
divisions (of six or more institutions each), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition
among the members of that division;

As I read this, the smaller division can have no fewer than 6. The larger division is bounded by a round-robin in that division so that's effectively 9 schools, perhaps 10 at the most.

I don't think anyone disagreed with that. The greater concern was the ability to have conference teams play an unequal number of conference games. Two issues there. 1) Is it allowed? and 2) Would enough schools agree to it?

I doubt you get enough traction on #2.

(05-13-2015 06:15 PM)krux Wrote:  I think that could get hairy. What happens in this scenario?

7-1 FSU beats 9-0 Miami in the conference championship game...who then goes to the CFP or Orange Bowl?

FSU would be 8-1 with the head to head win over Miami in the championship game but Miami would be 9-1, technically have the better record (including an in-season win over FSU).

As I type that, I guess the Orange Bowl wouldn't really be affected as the champ goes there but the CFP picture could be crazy.

For the life of me I'm unable to picture this scenario. Can you please use another team, one that has at least won something as an ACC member? Someone like...Duke. Or even Wake (if they were switched out of FSU's division in this uneven division scenario).

(05-14-2015 12:21 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(05-13-2015 06:15 PM)krux Wrote:  I think that could get hairy. What happens in this scenario?

7-1 FSU beats 9-0 Miami in the conference championship game...who then goes to the CFP or Orange Bowl?

FSU would be 8-1 with the head to head win over Miami in the championship game but Miami would be 9-1, technically have the better record (including an in-season win over FSU).

As I type that, I guess the Orange Bowl wouldn't really be affected as the champ goes there but the CFP picture could be crazy.

For the life of me I'm unable to picture this scenario. Can you please use another team, one that has at least won something as an ACC member? Someone like...Duke. Or even Wake (if they were switched out of FSU's division in this uneven division scenario).

lol...man, got em!

In all seriousness though, substitute Team A and Team B in if you'd like. You see what I'm saying?

(05-14-2015 12:21 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(05-13-2015 06:15 PM)krux Wrote:  I think that could get hairy. What happens in this scenario?

7-1 FSU beats 9-0 Miami in the conference championship game...who then goes to the CFP or Orange Bowl?

FSU would be 8-1 with the head to head win over Miami in the championship game but Miami would be 9-1, technically have the better record (including an in-season win over FSU).

As I type that, I guess the Orange Bowl wouldn't really be affected as the champ goes there but the CFP picture could be crazy.

Classic, Marge

For the life of me I'm unable to picture this scenario. Can you please use another team, one that has at least won something as an ACC member? Someone like...Duke. Or even Wake (if they were switched out of FSU's division in this uneven division scenario).

I believe this unequal division model works well. You pair a 4 team with a 3 team to make 2 seven team divisions them rotate 2 out of 4 years.

As a result the North and South play the teams in their pod yearly, the Atlantic and Coastal teams 2 of 4 years while paired in 7 team division and play the opposite Pod inter-division 2 of 4 years.

Atlantic and Coastal play the other 2 teams in their POD plus one crossover yearly, plus the North and South teams 2 of 4 years and the other 2 inter division teams 2 of 4 years.

Results in 8 games, play 3 teams yearly, play the rest 2 of 4 seasons (same as 5-3-3 model)

(Coastal and Atlantic aligned w/ crossover opponent)

N: BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville

Coastal / Atlantic
Virginia/ VTech
UNC / NC St
Duke / Wake

S: FSU, Clemson, Miami, GTech

(05-14-2015 10:00 PM)KRoach11 Wrote:  I believe this unequal division model works well. You pair a 4 team with a 3 team to make 2 seven team divisions them rotate 2 out of 4 years.

As a result the North and South play the teams in their pod yearly, the Atlantic and Coastal teams 2 of 4 years while paired in 7 team division and play the opposite Pod inter-division 2 of 4 years.

Atlantic and Coastal play the other 2 teams in their POD plus one crossover yearly, plus the North and South teams 2 of 4 years and the other 2 inter division teams 2 of 4 years.

Results in 8 games, play 3 teams yearly, play the rest 2 of 4 seasons (same as 5-3-3 model)

(Coastal and Atlantic aligned w/ crossover opponent)

N: BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville

Coastal / Atlantic
Virginia/ VTech
UNC / NC St
Duke / Wake

S: FSU, Clemson, Miami, GTech

I can see a model like this working. It nearly solves the issue for everyone. The only question I have is doesn't the southern pod seem stacked? Are those teams OK with being asked to face that gauntlet each yr vs what other teams are facing? In the end it's all about running the table for the ACC to get into the playoff. At least until they go to 8 teams. They may never go to 8. Louisville, Pitt and Vtech appear to be in an easier position than Fl St Miami GATech and Clemson.

(05-15-2015 07:21 AM)RedGrad Wrote:  

(05-14-2015 10:00 PM)KRoach11 Wrote:  I believe this unequal division model works well. You pair a 4 team with a 3 team to make 2 seven team divisions them rotate 2 out of 4 years.

As a result the North and South play the teams in their pod yearly, the Atlantic and Coastal teams 2 of 4 years while paired in 7 team division and play the opposite Pod inter-division 2 of 4 years.

Atlantic and Coastal play the other 2 teams in their POD plus one crossover yearly, plus the North and South teams 2 of 4 years and the other 2 inter division teams 2 of 4 years.

Results in 8 games, play 3 teams yearly, play the rest 2 of 4 seasons (same as 5-3-3 model)

(Coastal and Atlantic aligned w/ crossover opponent)

N: BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville

Coastal / Atlantic
Virginia/ VTech
UNC / NC St
Duke / Wake

S: FSU, Clemson, Miami, GTech

I can see a model like this working. It nearly solves the issue for everyone. The only question I have is doesn't the southern pod seem stacked? Are those teams OK with being asked to face that gauntlet each yr vs what other teams are facing? In the end it's all about running the table for the ACC to get into the playoff. At least until they go to 8 teams. They may never go to 8. Louisville, Pitt and Vtech appear to be in an easier position than Fl St Miami GATech and Clemson.

Agreed on the Southern schools having it a little tougher, but it seems like those teams want to play each other.

Also, it is only realistically one tougher game since a Northern teams will play 2 out of 4 of the Southern teams each season anyway (while the Southern teams play 3.)

(05-13-2015 06:30 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  According the rule book - it's allowable:

17.9.5.2 Annual Exemptions. [FBS/FCS] The maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:
(Revised: 10/28/10)
(a) Spring Game. [FBS/FCS] One contest at the conclusion of the spring practice period [see Bylaw 17.9.4-
(a)], provided the contest is against a team composed of bona fide alumni or students or both; (Revised:
1/10/90)
(b) Heritage Bowl. [FBS] Participation in the Heritage Bowl held between representatives of the Mid-
Eastern Athletic Conference and the Southwestern Athletic Conference, which shall meet the reporting
requirements set forth in Bylaw 18.7.2 in order to be exempt; (Adopted: 1/10/91, Revised: 1/10/92)
© Twelve-Member Conference Championship Game. [FBS/FCS] A conference championship game
between division champions of a member conference of 12 or more institutions that is divided into two
divisions (of six or more institutions each), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition
among the members of that division;

As I read this, the smaller division can have no fewer than 6. The larger division is bounded by a round-robin in that division so that's effectively 9 schools, perhaps 10 at the most.

I don't think the problem is the NCAA per se. It is what adcorbett pointed out. If you have a six team division that plays 8 games, then these six schools would have to play a total of 18 crossover games each year (6 teams X 3 games each). But then you are left with an 8 team division, which must play 7 games within the division, and 2 crossover games each. That division, then plays a total of 16 crossovers (8 X 2). Since each division in aggregate must, by definition, play the same number of crossover games, that scenario doesn't work.

Switch that to the 8 team division being the one that plays only 8 games. They each only have room for 1 crossover, or 8 games total. The 6 team division plays a 5 game round robin, but to have 9 games they must in aggregate now play 24 crossover games (6 X 4). That's even worse than the other way.

To make it work, two teams in the 8 team division would have to play 10 league games each, while the other six played 9 league games. Any ideas about who might volunteer to do that? Would they have to skip the Notre Dame rotation to do it?

(05-16-2015 10:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(05-13-2015 06:30 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  According the rule book - it's allowable:

17.9.5.2 Annual Exemptions. [FBS/FCS] The maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following:
(Revised: 10/28/10)
(a) Spring Game. [FBS/FCS] One contest at the conclusion of the spring practice period [see Bylaw 17.9.4-
(a)], provided the contest is against a team composed of bona fide alumni or students or both; (Revised:
1/10/90)
(b) Heritage Bowl. [FBS] Participation in the Heritage Bowl held between representatives of the Mid-
Eastern Athletic Conference and the Southwestern Athletic Conference, which shall meet the reporting
requirements set forth in Bylaw 18.7.2 in order to be exempt; (Adopted: 1/10/91, Revised: 1/10/92)
© Twelve-Member Conference Championship Game. [FBS/FCS] A conference championship game
between division champions of a member conference of 12 or more institutions that is divided into two
divisions (of six or more institutions each), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition
among the members of that division;

As I read this, the smaller division can have no fewer than 6. The larger division is bounded by a round-robin in that division so that's effectively 9 schools, perhaps 10 at the most.

I don't think the problem is the NCAA per se. It is what adcorbett pointed out. If you have a six team division that plays 8 games, then these six schools would have to play a total of 18 crossover games each year (6 teams X 3 games each). But then you are left with an 8 team division, which must play 7 games within the division, and 2 crossover games each. That division, then plays a total of 16 crossovers (8 X 2). Since each division in aggregate must, by definition, play the same number of crossover games, that scenario doesn't work.

Switch that to the 8 team division being the one that plays only 8 games. They each only have room for 1 crossover, or 8 games total. The 6 team division plays a 5 game round robin, but to have 9 games they must in aggregate now play 24 crossover games (6 X 4). That's even worse than the other way.

To make it work, two teams in the 8 team division would have to play 10 league games each, while the other six played 9 league games. Any ideas about who might volunteer to do that? Would they have to skip the Notre Dame rotation to do it?

There is an even more radical solution, I think, that could solve the problem of the imbalance in the number of crossover games. Consider the first scenario, with six teams playing an 8 game slate and eight teams playing 9 games. For example:

8 games
FSU
Clemson
Va Tech
Louisville
Georgia Tech
Miami

9 games
UNC
Duke
NC State
Wake
Virginia
Pitt
Syracuse
BC

What if two of the teams in the six team division played each other home and home in the same season? For example, FSU and Miami or FSU and Clemson. Since they would be in the same division, there would never be the possibility of a third game, and if they were in different divisions there would always be a chance they could have a rematch in the CCG anyway. You could do this with just two schools, if both were agreeable to playing twice every year. Or you could rotate which two teams are paired each year.

Since these two teams would then only need two crossover games each, that drops the number for the division to 16, which is exactly what two games from each of the teams in the eight team division require. Since each division plays a full round robin every year, the NCAA requirements are met.

Or you can just do pods and the problem is solved.