I'll let this get back to Cuse and look for an FSU thread to continue this in.

(05-12-2015 12:03 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I was shocked in my first visit to the Carrier Dome at how crappy it was. I don't know what I was expecting but that certainly was not it.

The campus itself is very attractive. I imagine when the leaves fall that is one of the most beautiful scenes in America. The town was a little rougher than I was expecting but it wasn't horrible. It was a but like downtown South Bend, Indiana - which is also rougher than most realize. The Carrier Dome was really disappointing though. It was hot and uncomfortable and it just felt very, very old and out of date. Again, it was not nearly as bad as Pitt Stadium was in its final days but it definitely needs either a full renovation or to be torn down and replaced altogether. My vote would be for the latter.

Why not play for a few seasons in Buffalo and/or Yankee Stadium for a year or two while SU builds a brand new facility? Sure it would suck to play off campus while they were building the new facility but it would be well worth it in the end. Hoops could barnstorm all over New York state - play some games in Albany, some in Rochester, some in Buffalo, some in Brooklyn, and some in Manhattan. You could even play a game or two in Nassau Coliseum if you wanted to incorporate Long Island. That is not a great permanent solution but it would work just fine for a year or two while you built a state-of-the-art on campus facility.

I'm just a little skeptical that the Dome is salvageable. Even with a LOT of renovation, it would still probably be a middling facility. Just tear down and start anew - you'll be glad you did.

BTW, Downtown Syracuse has really had a renaissance the last 5 years...it looks nothing like it did a decade ago...3-4k new residents in the Core has really helped and the rental market is nearly 100% full.

Your idea sounds reasonable but you forgot where would the 24k Hoops fans go?

If it is built new...I seriously doubt it would be on the same footprint.

I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

(05-12-2015 02:24 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

You're right it was a planned $500M stadium but the state offered $200M...still foolish of her to piss away the opportunity. You accept the offer and then negotiate changes.

(05-12-2015 02:24 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

The total cost of the new stadium would have been about $500 million. The State was offering $250 million. In my opinion that is an amazing amount of money to give to a private school. Thats why I always say that SU is treated like a state school even though it is private.

(05-12-2015 02:42 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 02:24 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

The total cost of the new stadium would have been about $500 million. The State was offering $250 million. In my opinion that is an amazing amount of money to give to a private school. Thats why I always say that SU is treated like a state school even though it is private.

Has me wondering big time if that money is ever going to come back. That's big time money with the highway thing going on. I'd like to think that money is still a option in a year or two. But that could not happen.

If they renovate the dome go with the all orange seats, Air Conditioning and a roof that opens if that's possible. That's my three major updates I would like to see. If they add that, I think that makes a huge difference.

(05-12-2015 02:42 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 02:24 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

The total cost of the new stadium would have been about $500 million. The State was offering $250 million. In my opinion that is an amazing amount of money to give to a private school. Thats why I always say that SU is treated like a state school even though it is private.

...and the county was going to get State $$$, too, if I recall. As such, weren't they going to add to the State funding? I just remember that it was a fair to good deal for Syracuse (just off campus but not far, the primary tenant, baseball might fit - depending on design).

Yes, SU does benefit a bit like a State U, many people forget that they also house a State school and the State benefits greatly from this arrangement.

I'll Tell You ACC Fans that a trip to 'Cuse with a new Stadium by Destiny would be a fantastic weekend. Destiny is just plain Huge and with the Fingerlakes and other attractions in the immediate area , You can find much to take in. The Baseball HOF is also near By in Cooperstown.

http://www.destinyusa.com/

http://www.fingerlakes.org/

http://wikitravel.org/en/Finger_Lakes

http://wikitravel.org/en/Skaneateles Doug's Fish fry is the bomb !

http://www.thisiscooperstown.com/

(05-12-2015 07:01 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 02:42 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 02:24 PM)44AndThe23 Wrote:  I don't think the 500m statement is accurate. If my memory serves me correctly it was 100 or 200. 500? I do not remember that much. I could be wrong. But I don't believe so.

The total cost of the new stadium would have been about $500 million. The State was offering $250 million. In my opinion that is an amazing amount of money to give to a private school. Thats why I always say that SU is treated like a state school even though it is private.

Has me wondering big time if that money is ever going to come back. That's big time money with the highway thing going on. I'd like to think that money is still a option in a year or two. But that could not happen.

If they renovate the dome go with the all orange seats, Air Conditioning and a roof that opens if that's possible. That's my three major updates I would like to see. If they add that, I think that makes a huge difference.

Just add a retractable roof and A/C to the dome, then it is golden.

The second option, less favorable, is to build a new dome in south campus. The name is misleading. It is adjacent to the main campus. Linking the two campus is the very broad Comstock Avenue. I think right now most non-students park their cars in south campus then go to Carrier Dome. For non-students, south campus is an even better choice for football stadium. Downtown, Destiny and state fair are just too far away and not so easy to move students when the game is on. Students can walk to south campus alas a little bit long walk, but not to the other three locations.

I don't get the Dome hate. Anyone who has been to an early SEC game or a late B1G game should be well-acquainted with the Dome's virtues. The climate is in no way, shape, or form worse than early season Vandy games (or pretty much any other SEC team for that matter - most of which are tangibly worse than Vandy) and it is infinitely better than sitting in the nose bleeds in State College during a snow storm. That is h*ll.

Aside from that, the only other complaint that I hear on a regular basis involves having bench seating, but 1) many iconic stadiums have bench seating, at least in some capacity (Vandy and PSU from my above example, along with Michigan and many, many more) and they sell seat backs. If you have a problem with benches, buy one of those. Tickets are dirt cheap, so it's not like the ticket + seat back is going to kill you. It is actually probably cheaper than *just* the ticket cost at PSU or Michigan.

However, unlike Michigan, PSU, etc., literally every seat in the Dome has a great view.

IMHO, the Dome's biggest problem is the team in it. If we got a coach that could win, people would come out and the Dome's atmosphere would become electric, making it one of the best stadiums in America. Upstate's economy probably isn't doing the Dome any favors, either. But, that's more a factor of tax rates and natural market shifts in search of equilibrium.

(05-13-2015 10:49 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  I don't get the Dome hate. Anyone who has been to an early SEC game or a late B1G game should be well-acquainted with the Dome's virtues. The climate is in no way, shape, or form worse than early season Vandy games (or pretty much any other SEC team for that matter - most of which are tangibly worse than Vandy) and it is infinitely better than sitting in the nose bleeds in State College during a snow storm. That is h*ll.

Aside from that, the only other complaint that I hear on a regular basis involves having bench seating, but 1) many iconic stadiums have bench seating, at least in some capacity (Vandy and PSU from my above example, along with Michigan and many, many more) and they sell seat backs. If you have a problem with benches, buy one of those. Tickets are dirt cheap, so it's not like the ticket + seat back is going to kill you. It is actually probably cheaper than *just* the ticket cost at PSU or Michigan.

However, unlike Michigan, PSU, etc., literally every seat in the Dome has a great view.

IMHO, [b]the Dome's biggest problem is the team in it[/b]. If we got a coach that could win, people would come out and the Dome's atmosphere would become electric, making it one of the best stadiums in America. Upstate's economy probably isn't doing the Dome any favors, either. But, that's more a factor of tax rates and natural market shifts in search of equilibrium.

BINGO!

As for the facility itself - get air conditioning!

(05-11-2015 10:46 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(05-11-2015 10:28 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  If you have the money for #3, why would you not do #3? How much could they really improve the dome with #2? And is the price tag worth it? Might be more reasonable to build a completely new stadium.

You think...but politics is involved. Rumor is SU wants the land where the Dome sits for other uses...but would the new stadium be convenient to our lazy, front running students?

To me, the problem with number two, would be the cost to replace a roof is FAAAARRR higher than the price to simply add a roof to a stadium design. Adding a roof to a stadium that was not mean to have one adds about $200 million. That is about the same cost, at least that I have seen, for converting an existing roof to a retractable one. As the retractable portion itself is usually only $20 million on a new stadium, it leads me to believe the cost of replacing a roof is in the neighborhood of $100-180 million. that seems like a lot for a temporary solution.

(05-12-2015 09:34 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 07:34 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 02:56 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Trolleys or buses? Is there no current public transportation?

Ofcourse there is but routes would have to be redone...etc...also it would be a great time to relook at mass transit especially with I-81 through downtown looking at Boulevard, viaduct or tunnel options.

This just doesn't make much sense to me. There should already be routes connecting two important destinations, which I assume a really big mall and a well known university are. Are you specifically talking about an SU to Destiny route, or something else?

I wanted to add to this one too. I don't know about Syracuse, but here in Louisville mass transit is more of an afterthought. Like you get the idea it is design less for the "mass" part, and is designed more for transportation for people who cannot afford cars. I point that out because if Syracuse is similar, I could easily see how such a gap could be missing. All of our busses go through downtown, but any other two major points, nearly always requires multiple busses to get there or traveling thru downtown.

(05-13-2015 02:22 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 12:00 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Would the "downtown" and/or "Destiny" sites be too inconvenient? It's not like we're talking about moving the dome/stadium all the way across the county like with UMiami. Both seem better than south campus.

It's more that the alumni don't want an off-campus stadium, and every time S.U. has reached out to us about this project, we've communicated that point repeatedly and vociferously. The alumni write the overwhelming majority of donation checks, so of course S.U. cares about our opinions. Also, at a time when virtually every other D1 program is trying to get an on-campus stadium, it seems foolish to voluntarily do the opposite.

I think the reason here is that, for an NBA level arena to be economically feasible, it must be downtown, due to the non-athletic events. I think the state interest involved here are less because of it being a football stadium, but being a dome, which could be used for great economic benefit, like other domes around the country. But again, they have to be downtown to make them economically feasible. That is probably why they want it there. It was the same issue Louisville went thru when YUM was built, and why it was ultimately built downtown, instead of on campus. At that pricetag, and for what they likely are looking to use it for outside of Syracuse athletics, downtown is probably the only place that makes it feasible for that type of investment. Football only stadiums don't need to be downtown. Basketball arenas and baseball stadiums (and domes) do.

But you don't have to use Louisville. You can use basically every other existing city in the country. When or where was the last dome, major basketball arena, or MLB baseball stadium built anywhere but in a downtown are or business district? Glendale, Arizona is about the only one, and even then, it was specifically built there to help spur growth, and is a business district (albeit not in downtown Phoenix). That is just where they have to be to make the investment worthwhile.

There are some FB (only) stadiums, such as Gilette Stadium, and Fed Ex Field, and but not many. IF it were just a football stadium, you'd have a point. But the dome portion of it, the reason the state (likely) was interested in helping to find it, more or less requires it to be downtown.

(05-13-2015 04:11 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  You're using major league professional sports examples in huge cities to justify something in a college sports/minor league town though. The peer cities of Syracuse are not Brooklyn, Orlando, Charlotte, Memphis, or Houston (the last 5 cities to open new NBA arenas).

No, I am using comparable cost arenas to match the expected cost of a new Syracuse dome ($500MM+). All of the others you mentioned, one cost more than half as much, and two they paid for themselves. the Minnesota stadium cost half as much ($263MM). Tulanes 1/4 as much ($120MM). And UCF.s about 10% as much ($60MM). They are not remotely the same situation. None of those are more comparable to the situation than the ones I listed, no matter how much easier it seems that way.

Doesn't necessarily matter the size of city, the economics work the same. Build it near the business district and other infrastrucure. You are talking about an expenditure than can't possibly be made up by Syracuse athletics alone, thus the other economic realities must be considered. But you don't have to believe me. Just ask yourself why the aide package insisted on it being downtown? When you pay for it yourself, you can put it where you want. When others are investing for their own purposes, those wishes must be considered.

(05-13-2015 02:22 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 12:00 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Would the "downtown" and/or "Destiny" sites be too inconvenient? It's not like we're talking about moving the dome/stadium all the way across the county like with UMiami. Both seem better than south campus.

It's more that the alumni don't want an off-campus stadium, and every time S.U. has reached out to us about this project, we've communicated that point repeatedly and vociferously. The alumni write the overwhelming majority of donation checks, so of course S.U. cares about our opinions. Also, at a time when virtually every other D1 program is trying to get an on-campus stadium, it seems foolish to voluntarily do the opposite. Not to mention that Syracuse football has called the Dome's (almost) exact footprint home for 108 years, as Archbold stood there before the Dome was constructed. Honestly, we haven't even seen renderings of a proposed renovation yet, so I'm not sure why anyone would be so dead set against it already, unless they were predisposed to wanting it moved off-campus for some other agenda. The only things they showed us were some pictures of other schools' amenities as examples of "what they'd like to do," and those all looked great.

Mainly, how much is it going to cost to renovate it to a competitive level? All of the renovations listed in the OP make me wonder if it doesn't just make more sense to build a new stadium.

And that's fine. But there is a price point where - even if a renovation is still cheaper - a new stadium makes more sense.