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For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #21
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 12:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:33 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  As the conference networks' need for fresh content grows, more and more money will flood into baseball and softball coverage and will make them legitimate revenue generators, or at least cost neutral.

As that happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Northern schools are going to insist that they are playing on a level playing field with their Western and Southern peers. There is no way financial giants like Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc., are going to allow their programs to be marginalized as those sports become more national in focus.

Also, the summer is a dead time for networks like the SEC Network, the Big Ten Network, etc. There is a reason why people are tuning in to a Johns Hopkins vs. Towson lacrosse match even though most people don't care about that sport or those schools. It is also why a hot dog eating competition can gain airtime during a window that is occupied by college football and basketball games during other times of the year. There is nothing else on.

I think the shift from a spring sport only to a spring/summer sport for both baseball and softball is only a matter of time (and money).

I'd like to know how college baseball teams will play in the summer after their best players are drafted and signed to major and minor league contracts.

The best college baseball players are not going to sign with teams that play in some new "summer college baseball" that ends in mid-to-late August, because in the year they're eligible for the MLB draft, those players want to go play pro ball after they are drafted, and in the years before that, they want to get noticed in the Cape Cod League or one of the other summer baseball leagues for college players.

MLB wants the calendar the way it is. So does ESPN. So do the baseball players, and those summer baseball leagues. So do all of the colleges that won't make money off of baseball played when no one is on campus, because they don't have a BTN and aren't just looking to monetize a new sport of "summer college baseball". The College World Series will continue to be played in June and conclude before the end of June.

-OR-

Southern and western teams won't get to maintain their unfair home game advantage, because the season will be started later.

Everyone will prefer that.


Yeah, I like that one better.
05-12-2015 12:29 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #22
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 12:29 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:33 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  As the conference networks' need for fresh content grows, more and more money will flood into baseball and softball coverage and will make them legitimate revenue generators, or at least cost neutral.

As that happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Northern schools are going to insist that they are playing on a level playing field with their Western and Southern peers. There is no way financial giants like Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc., are going to allow their programs to be marginalized as those sports become more national in focus.

Also, the summer is a dead time for networks like the SEC Network, the Big Ten Network, etc. There is a reason why people are tuning in to a Johns Hopkins vs. Towson lacrosse match even though most people don't care about that sport or those schools. It is also why a hot dog eating competition can gain airtime during a window that is occupied by college football and basketball games during other times of the year. There is nothing else on.

I think the shift from a spring sport only to a spring/summer sport for both baseball and softball is only a matter of time (and money).

I'd like to know how college baseball teams will play in the summer after their best players are drafted and signed to major and minor league contracts.

The best college baseball players are not going to sign with teams that play in some new "summer college baseball" that ends in mid-to-late August, because in the year they're eligible for the MLB draft, those players want to go play pro ball after they are drafted, and in the years before that, they want to get noticed in the Cape Cod League or one of the other summer baseball leagues for college players.

MLB wants the calendar the way it is. So does ESPN. So do the baseball players, and those summer baseball leagues. So do all of the colleges that won't make money off of baseball played when no one is on campus, because they don't have a BTN and aren't just looking to monetize a new sport of "summer college baseball". The College World Series will continue to be played in June and conclude before the end of June.

-OR-

Southern and western teams won't get to maintain their unfair home game advantage, because the season will be started later.

Everyone will prefer that.


Yeah, I like that one better.

You are just pretending that you don't understand what the real "advantage" is. The advantage is that the vast majority of the best high school-age baseball players (and softball players) are in the south, southwest, and southern California. It's the same advantage that northeastern and midwestern schools have in ice hockey and lacrosse -- the schools are situated in the midst of all the best recruits. It's an advantage that can be overcome by talented coaches who recruit well -- that's why Indiana, Nebraska, Kent State, and Stony Brook can make the College World Series instead of just sitting around feeling sorry for themselves. It's not something that you can fix by seceding from college baseball and playing your own "summer college baseball" on empty campuses in July and August.
05-12-2015 12:51 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #23
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 12:51 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:29 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 12:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:33 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  As the conference networks' need for fresh content grows, more and more money will flood into baseball and softball coverage and will make them legitimate revenue generators, or at least cost neutral.

As that happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Northern schools are going to insist that they are playing on a level playing field with their Western and Southern peers. There is no way financial giants like Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc., are going to allow their programs to be marginalized as those sports become more national in focus.

Also, the summer is a dead time for networks like the SEC Network, the Big Ten Network, etc. There is a reason why people are tuning in to a Johns Hopkins vs. Towson lacrosse match even though most people don't care about that sport or those schools. It is also why a hot dog eating competition can gain airtime during a window that is occupied by college football and basketball games during other times of the year. There is nothing else on.

I think the shift from a spring sport only to a spring/summer sport for both baseball and softball is only a matter of time (and money).

I'd like to know how college baseball teams will play in the summer after their best players are drafted and signed to major and minor league contracts.

The best college baseball players are not going to sign with teams that play in some new "summer college baseball" that ends in mid-to-late August, because in the year they're eligible for the MLB draft, those players want to go play pro ball after they are drafted, and in the years before that, they want to get noticed in the Cape Cod League or one of the other summer baseball leagues for college players.

MLB wants the calendar the way it is. So does ESPN. So do the baseball players, and those summer baseball leagues. So do all of the colleges that won't make money off of baseball played when no one is on campus, because they don't have a BTN and aren't just looking to monetize a new sport of "summer college baseball". The College World Series will continue to be played in June and conclude before the end of June.

-OR-

Southern and western teams won't get to maintain their unfair home game advantage, because the season will be started later.

Everyone will prefer that.


Yeah, I like that one better.

You are just pretending that you don't understand what the real "advantage" is. The advantage is that the vast majority of the best high school-age baseball players (and softball players) are in the south, southwest, and southern California. It's the same advantage that northeastern and midwestern schools have in ice hockey and lacrosse -- the schools are situated in the midst of all the best recruits. It's an advantage that can be overcome by talented coaches who recruit well -- that's why Indiana, Nebraska, Kent State, and Stony Brook can make the College World Series instead of just sitting around feeling sorry for themselves. It's not something that you can fix by seceding from college baseball and playing your own "summer college baseball" on empty campuses in July and August.

The very definition of a red herring.

We're entirely focused here on making home game scheduling opportunities (due to weather) fair. Everything else is irrelevant to that point.
05-12-2015 01:53 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #24
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
MplsBison, Minnesota won three national championships and advanced to Omaha five times overall during a stretch from the mid 50s to the late 70s. They've made 20 more appearances in the NCAAs since 1981.

Michigan began this year with the 5th most wins all-time in D1 baseball. They have two national championships and seven CWS appearances to their credit. Barry Larkin helped them reach Omaha back-to-back years in '83 and '84.

Penn State was a national runner-up in 1957 and advanced to Omaha three times that decade.

It is true baseball used to be #1 in America. But these Big Ten teams faced the same weather factors as today, yet that did not stop these programs two generations ago. So what changed? Was it the advent of the internet, the growth of baseball popularity across the south and west (especially the SEC, Pac and Big West)?

I believe that it's more about the sports culture up north more than anything else. Seems like northerners value college football, hockey and wrestling more than baseball nowadays. Big Ten teams more than anyone else up north, have the money now to pour into recruiting, coaches' salaries and facilities, not to mention the BTN for extra exposure. If you guys dared to spend a little money and time into baseball instead of football then the glory days could very well return.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2015 02:01 PM by jdgaucho.)
05-12-2015 02:00 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #25
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 01:53 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The very definition of a red herring.

We're entirely focused here on making home game scheduling opportunities (due to weather) fair. Everything else is irrelevant to that point.

Cal State Fullerton played series @ Indiana in mid March, @ Nebraska in late March and @ Maryland in mid April. They did their part to provide home games for the Big Ten.
05-12-2015 02:07 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #26
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
We aren't exactly the deep south here in Louisville (it snows here in May sometimes) but we are OK in baseball. Some of our best recruits come from Illinois and Pennsylvania. If you want to compete in a colder climate you can. You just have to be prepared to go inside some.
CJ
05-12-2015 02:11 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #27
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
Louisville has come on strong over the past decade. CWS appearances in 2013 and 2014 (three overall) and eight times in the NCAAs since 2002.
05-12-2015 02:16 PM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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Post: #28
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 12:10 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:56 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:35 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  All time Civil War Standings:
North: 1-0-0
South: 0-1-0
All-time battle standings:
North: lost 'em
South: won 'em

Gettysburg?

Vicksburg?

Chattanooga?

Atlanta?

Port Hudson?

Forts Henry and Donelson?

Wilderness?

Nashville?

Five Forks?

Spotsylvania?

The Wilderness and Spotsylvania are traditionally seen as draws or inconclusive.
05-12-2015 02:24 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #29
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 02:00 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  MplsBison, Minnesota won three national championships and advanced to Omaha five times overall during a stretch from the mid 50s to the late 70s. They've made 20 more appearances in the NCAAs since 1981.

Michigan began this year with the 5th most wins all-time in D1 baseball. They have two national championships and seven CWS appearances to their credit. Barry Larkin helped them reach Omaha back-to-back years in '83 and '84.

Penn State was a national runner-up in 1957 and advanced to Omaha three times that decade.

It is true baseball used to be #1 in America. But these Big Ten teams faced the same weather factors as today, yet that did not stop these programs two generations ago. So what changed? Was it the advent of the internet, the growth of baseball popularity across the south and west (especially the SEC, Pac and Big West)?

I believe that it's more about the sports culture up north more than anything else. Seems like northerners value college football, hockey and wrestling more than baseball nowadays. Big Ten teams more than anyone else up north, have the money now to pour into recruiting, coaches' salaries and facilities, not to mention the BTN for extra exposure. If you guys dared to spend a little money and time into baseball instead of football then the glory days could very well return.


Really? You're quoting results from 1957? In 1950 over 60% of the population was in the Northeast & Midwest. Their financial power was closer to 70%. Today it's about 40%.

Northern teams won almost EVERY sport back then because they were the vast majority of the competitors.

And you're arguing in circles. Of COURSE northern teams have a hard time justifying a huge investment in baseball - it's hard to motivate fans when you can't get any home games for half the season.
05-12-2015 03:03 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #30
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
Wins and losses don't matter. Demographics don't matter. Youth and high school participation rates don't matter.

Those are all red herrings.


The fact is: northern teams have an unfair disadvantage in home games. That's the discussion, alone. But there's nothing to discuss, really. It's an open and shut case that needs to be fixed, for the sake of fairness alone.
05-12-2015 03:50 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #31
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 02:00 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  MplsBison, Minnesota won three national championships and advanced to Omaha five times overall during a stretch from the mid 50s to the late 70s. They've made 20 more appearances in the NCAAs since 1981.

Michigan began this year with the 5th most wins all-time in D1 baseball. They have two national championships and seven CWS appearances to their credit. Barry Larkin helped them reach Omaha back-to-back years in '83 and '84.

Penn State was a national runner-up in 1957 and advanced to Omaha three times that decade.

It is true baseball used to be #1 in America. But these Big Ten teams faced the same weather factors as today, yet that did not stop these programs two generations ago. So what changed? Was it the advent of the internet, the growth of baseball popularity across the south and west (especially the SEC, Pac and Big West)?

I believe that it's more about the sports culture up north more than anything else. Seems like northerners value college football, hockey and wrestling more than baseball nowadays. Big Ten teams more than anyone else up north, have the money now to pour into recruiting, coaches' salaries and facilities, not to mention the BTN for extra exposure. If you guys dared to spend a little money and time into baseball instead of football then the glory days could very well return.

Northerners like pro baseball but not so much the college variety.
05-12-2015 03:54 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #32
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 03:54 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 02:00 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  MplsBison, Minnesota won three national championships and advanced to Omaha five times overall during a stretch from the mid 50s to the late 70s. They've made 20 more appearances in the NCAAs since 1981.

Michigan began this year with the 5th most wins all-time in D1 baseball. They have two national championships and seven CWS appearances to their credit. Barry Larkin helped them reach Omaha back-to-back years in '83 and '84.

Penn State was a national runner-up in 1957 and advanced to Omaha three times that decade.

It is true baseball used to be #1 in America. But these Big Ten teams faced the same weather factors as today, yet that did not stop these programs two generations ago. So what changed? Was it the advent of the internet, the growth of baseball popularity across the south and west (especially the SEC, Pac and Big West)?

I believe that it's more about the sports culture up north more than anything else. Seems like northerners value college football, hockey and wrestling more than baseball nowadays. Big Ten teams more than anyone else up north, have the money now to pour into recruiting, coaches' salaries and facilities, not to mention the BTN for extra exposure. If you guys dared to spend a little money and time into baseball instead of football then the glory days could very well return.

Northerners like pro baseball but not so much the college variety.

Well, personally, I can't stand the fake sound of the metal bats.
05-12-2015 04:15 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #33
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 04:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:54 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Northerners like pro baseball but not so much the college variety.

Well, personally, I can't stand the fake sound of the metal bats.

Those bats have been deadened somewhat over the past few years. You don't hear that distinct "ping!" sound anymore when bat hits ball.
05-12-2015 04:49 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
There are really only two solutions to resolve this issue..

- Start the season later
- Play more tourneys in domes

Otherwise the status quo will persist.
05-13-2015 08:20 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #35
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-13-2015 08:20 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  There are really only two solutions to resolve this issue..

- Start the season later
- Play more tourneys in domes

Otherwise the status quo will persist.

Start the season later, it is.

Everyone from TV, to MLB, to the colleges themselves will prefer that.
05-13-2015 09:01 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #36
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-12-2015 04:49 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 04:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:54 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Northerners like pro baseball but not so much the college variety.

Well, personally, I can't stand the fake sound of the metal bats.

Those bats have been deadened somewhat over the past few years. You don't hear that distinct "ping!" sound anymore when bat hits ball.

Why not just use wood bats??
05-13-2015 09:01 AM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #37
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
The North has the two best summer college baseball leagues in the Cape Cod and Northwoods League. Northwoods League is a money making machine. Colleges get to send their best players away for the summer, while they play and they don't have to feed or house them. Its a win for everybody.
05-13-2015 10:09 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #38
RE: For folks claiming a baseball bias towards the West and South - softball is worse
(05-13-2015 10:09 AM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  The North has the two best summer college baseball leagues in the Cape Cod and Northwoods League. Northwoods League is a money making machine. Colleges get to send their best players away for the summer, while they play and they don't have to feed or house them. Its a win for everybody.

Sounds like it works great for southern and western teams that aren't playing in the NCAA post season:

- get all the home games in Feb, March and April (since northern teams can't host, due to weather)
- wrap up the season in early May (when it's just starting to get consistently nice in the north)
- ship your players off to "preschool" for the summer
05-13-2015 10:24 AM
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