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FLEagle Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 04:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:46 PM)slycat Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

I agree that programs starting from scratch and going to FBS quick is very difficult. Lots of hurdles. USA and UTSA did good along with UCF and USF.

I think that there are a few ways to do this correctly and ways to not do it correctly. The following schools have started 'greenfield' FBS programs in the last 15 years. USA, FIU, FAU, UTSA, ODU, Charlotte, and Georgia State.

First, USA and UTSA worked hard on scheduling. USA offers a home slate that includes(d) Mississippi State, Navy, Oklahoma State, SD State, NC State...Georgia State offeres(d) Air Force and not much else. If I see another post on here by a Sun Belt fan posting the 'great news' that their team got another payday game with some G5 school...I'm gonna spit up.

Here's the deal for the newbies. If you don't or can't get well known teams to come to your place....You better be winning 9 games a year.

UTSA, ODU, and USA have something in common. No competition at either the FBS or NFL level and all have over a million people within 60 miles of the school. All three have compelling OOC home series'. Only one of those teams has a P5 school anywhere near them.

Georgia State and Charlotte have the people, but they're both in NFL cities. And Georgia State has 2 P5 programs within an hour of the school. UNCC has 2 P5 schools within 100 miles. FIU and FAU both have a P5 school sitting right next to them and they're both in a NFL town.

By the way, USA's attendance is nothing to write home about (yea, I know that USA probably undercounts, but its still not huge). But it is at least credible.

Or what? USA averaged 4000 fans less than Georgia Southern, and 6000 less than App State. And that included a sellout game against Miss State. Maybe the startup a should worry about winning games and filling the stands consistently and we'll worry about our scheduling.
05-12-2015 06:40 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 11:16 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

The article has a lot of good information.

Using Texas State as an example debt service may be temporarily skewing the numbers for some of the programs. A lot of the current Texas State subsidy is probably associated with debt service. As part of The Drive, there was a large capital improvement program. Based on the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics database, Texas State's debt service went from around $1.054 million per year in 2008 to $4.6 million per year in 2013 (the most recent review year). My understanding is that the student body agreed to an increase in student fees to help with paying off the debt. (Personally, I think student fees should be in a category separate from the subsidy category, particularly if the fees also include or allow reduced access cost to athletic events.)

Taking it a little further, it would be interesting to review the percentage of debt service to the overall athletic budget for the established programs moving up vs the start up programs.

http://spendingdatabase.knightcommission.org/

Debt Service can be found by drilling down on the "Other" category in the database.

The Texas State increase in the athletic fee was for FBS football. That was similar to the athletic fee voted for at Lamar in order to bring back football.

The debt service is $3.6 million annually. Revenue was $32 million last year, so the revenue has tripled since 2008. So the large increase in revenue more than covers the debt service. The athletic fee is over 50% of the revenue. We have a lot of students.

I don't think the 70% subsidy is a problem at this point. We are at the early stages of the move to FBS. Besides, the student support for the athletic fee increase was passed with about 80% approval.
05-12-2015 07:36 PM
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runamuck Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 07:36 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:16 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

The article has a lot of good information.

Using Texas State as an example debt service may be temporarily skewing the numbers for some of the programs. A lot of the current Texas State subsidy is probably associated with debt service. As part of The Drive, there was a large capital improvement program. Based on the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics database, Texas State's debt service went from around $1.054 million per year in 2008 to $4.6 million per year in 2013 (the most recent review year). My understanding is that the student body agreed to an increase in student fees to help with paying off the debt. (Personally, I think student fees should be in a category separate from the subsidy category, particularly if the fees also include or allow reduced access cost to athletic events.)

Taking it a little further, it would be interesting to review the percentage of debt service to the overall athletic budget for the established programs moving up vs the start up programs.

http://spendingdatabase.knightcommission.org/

Debt Service can be found by drilling down on the "Other" category in the database.

The Texas State increase in the athletic fee was for FBS football. That was similar to the athletic fee voted for at Lamar in order to bring back football.

The debt service is $3.6 million annually. Revenue was $32 million last year, so the revenue has tripled since 2008. So the large increase in revenue more than covers the debt service. The athletic fee is over 50% of the revenue. We have a lot of students.

I don't think the 70% subsidy is a problem at this point. We are at the early stages of the move to FBS. Besides, the student support for the athletic fee increase was passed with about 80% approval.

uta voted in a student sports fee to be collected if football ever gets restarted. I dont remember the rate, but with 36,000 students, it may add up to a workable sum..
05-12-2015 08:10 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Data on new programs
Here is my concern when it comes to student fees.

We are moving into a phase where competition for students is going to become more fierce.
Total college enrollment is expected to fall over the next decade and right now the political trend is that funding for higher ed is easy to cut with little political fallout.

So schools will be competing for fewer students while many schools will likely increase how many students they admit in order to gain tuition and fee income.

If a school is highly dependent on university and student income for athletics they could be in dire financial straits if they lose enrollment or if operating costs increase and those costs cannot be met from the university and student sources.
05-12-2015 10:01 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 06:40 PM)FLEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 04:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:46 PM)slycat Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

I agree that programs starting from scratch and going to FBS quick is very difficult. Lots of hurdles. USA and UTSA did good along with UCF and USF.

I think that there are a few ways to do this correctly and ways to not do it correctly. The following schools have started 'greenfield' FBS programs in the last 15 years. USA, FIU, FAU, UTSA, ODU, Charlotte, and Georgia State.

First, USA and UTSA worked hard on scheduling. USA offers a home slate that includes(d) Mississippi State, Navy, Oklahoma State, SD State, NC State...Georgia State offeres(d) Air Force and not much else. If I see another post on here by a Sun Belt fan posting the 'great news' that their team got another payday game with some G5 school...I'm gonna spit up.

Here's the deal for the newbies. If you don't or can't get well known teams to come to your place....You better be winning 9 games a year.

UTSA, ODU, and USA have something in common. No competition at either the FBS or NFL level and all have over a million people within 60 miles of the school. All three have compelling OOC home series'. Only one of those teams has a P5 school anywhere near them.

Georgia State and Charlotte have the people, but they're both in NFL cities. And Georgia State has 2 P5 programs within an hour of the school. UNCC has 2 P5 schools within 100 miles. FIU and FAU both have a P5 school sitting right next to them and they're both in a NFL town.

By the way, USA's attendance is nothing to write home about (yea, I know that USA probably undercounts, but its still not huge). But it is at least credible.

Or what? USA averaged 4000 fans less than Georgia Southern, and 6000 less than App State. And that included a sellout game against Miss State. Maybe the startup a should worry about winning games and filling the stands consistently and we'll worry about our scheduling.

You have 100 years of history in football. The newbies, including USA, don't have that. That crack was directed at Georgia State, not you guys. But you guys could use some decent home games..
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2015 10:41 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
05-12-2015 10:40 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #26
RE: Data on new programs
What this doesn't do is break it down in what each of those schools spends on each sport...

what it does do is letting you think is the sole reason for the Percent Subsidy.

If school A has 16 sports and team B has 13 and team A drops 3 sports I'm positive the Percent Subsidy would be a lot lower and if team B added the 3 it wou;d be a lot higher.

What it also doesn't say is the level of support each school gives to each sport. I know Western and MUTS spends a lot more on basketball than say Appy or GASO. Probably a few million more when you add in men and woman's basketball.

Since the biggest chunk of the Subsidy goes to cover tuition (largest bill for all of us) the total number of scholarships plays a large role in the % of Percent Subsidy. So unless you can break it down and compare apples to apples it's meaningless because we all know not everyone does budgets the same way...

a ASU fan should know this first hand...ask Chief :)
05-13-2015 01:52 AM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #27
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 10:01 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Here is my concern when it comes to student fees.

We are moving into a phase where competition for students is going to become more fierce.
Total college enrollment is expected to fall over the next decade and right now the political trend is that funding for higher ed is easy to cut with little political fallout.

So schools will be competing for fewer students while many schools will likely increase how many students they admit in order to gain tuition and fee income.

If a school is highly dependent on university and student income for athletics they could be in dire financial straits if they lose enrollment or if operating costs increase and those costs cannot be met from the university and student sources.

Western's enroll has started to drop after steady increases over the last 5+ years. State money has continue to drop...

8 million in less funds from both had to be cut from this years budget. I believe it played a role in the dropping of the swim/diving teams...along with the other factors. But by dropping 3 sports it saves $910,000 a year. I believe Western's cost of attendance is going to be $950,000 a year. I think we will see more schools dropping a few sports and bylaws changed in the number you must have...if the flat enrollment numbers continue
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2015 02:01 AM by WKUYG.)
05-13-2015 02:01 AM
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eaglewraith Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 10:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 06:40 PM)FLEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 04:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:46 PM)slycat Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

I agree that programs starting from scratch and going to FBS quick is very difficult. Lots of hurdles. USA and UTSA did good along with UCF and USF.

I think that there are a few ways to do this correctly and ways to not do it correctly. The following schools have started 'greenfield' FBS programs in the last 15 years. USA, FIU, FAU, UTSA, ODU, Charlotte, and Georgia State.

First, USA and UTSA worked hard on scheduling. USA offers a home slate that includes(d) Mississippi State, Navy, Oklahoma State, SD State, NC State...Georgia State offeres(d) Air Force and not much else. If I see another post on here by a Sun Belt fan posting the 'great news' that their team got another payday game with some G5 school...I'm gonna spit up.

Here's the deal for the newbies. If you don't or can't get well known teams to come to your place....You better be winning 9 games a year.

UTSA, ODU, and USA have something in common. No competition at either the FBS or NFL level and all have over a million people within 60 miles of the school. All three have compelling OOC home series'. Only one of those teams has a P5 school anywhere near them.

Georgia State and Charlotte have the people, but they're both in NFL cities. And Georgia State has 2 P5 programs within an hour of the school. UNCC has 2 P5 schools within 100 miles. FIU and FAU both have a P5 school sitting right next to them and they're both in a NFL town.

By the way, USA's attendance is nothing to write home about (yea, I know that USA probably undercounts, but its still not huge). But it is at least credible.

Or what? USA averaged 4000 fans less than Georgia Southern, and 6000 less than App State. And that included a sellout game against Miss State. Maybe the startup a should worry about winning games and filling the stands consistently and we'll worry about our scheduling.

You have 100 years of history in football. The newbies, including USA, don't have that. That crack was directed at Georgia State, not you guys. But you guys could use some decent home games..

We really only have a little over 30 years of history, the stuff that came back before WW2 doesn't really have any impact on what our program is now.

I do agree it'd be nice to get some teams with better name recognition in Paulson, but we've gotta do what we can for now. Unlike other teams announcing payday games though, I don't think we've been scheduling over our heads and have games lined up that we should be competitive in, so we've got that working for us as well.
05-13-2015 06:17 AM
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CajunFan3406 Offline
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Post: #29
Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 06:40 PM)FLEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 04:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 03:46 PM)slycat Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

I agree that programs starting from scratch and going to FBS quick is very difficult. Lots of hurdles. USA and UTSA did good along with UCF and USF.

I think that there are a few ways to do this correctly and ways to not do it correctly. The following schools have started 'greenfield' FBS programs in the last 15 years. USA, FIU, FAU, UTSA, ODU, Charlotte, and Georgia State.

First, USA and UTSA worked hard on scheduling. USA offers a home slate that includes(d) Mississippi State, Navy, Oklahoma State, SD State, NC State...Georgia State offeres(d) Air Force and not much else. If I see another post on here by a Sun Belt fan posting the 'great news' that their team got another payday game with some G5 school...I'm gonna spit up.

Here's the deal for the newbies. If you don't or can't get well known teams to come to your place....You better be winning 9 games a year.

UTSA, ODU, and USA have something in common. No competition at either the FBS or NFL level and all have over a million people within 60 miles of the school. All three have compelling OOC home series'. Only one of those teams has a P5 school anywhere near them.

Georgia State and Charlotte have the people, but they're both in NFL cities. And Georgia State has 2 P5 programs within an hour of the school. UNCC has 2 P5 schools within 100 miles. FIU and FAU both have a P5 school sitting right next to them and they're both in a NFL town.

By the way, USA's attendance is nothing to write home about (yea, I know that USA probably undercounts, but its still not huge). But it is at least credible.

Or what? USA averaged 4000 fans less than Georgia Southern, and 6000 less than App State. And that included a sellout game against Miss State. Maybe the startup a should worry about winning games and filling the stands consistently and we'll worry about our scheduling.

Read the post again. He's referring to schools who started football from scratch and made the quick transition to FBS. USA, FIU, FAU, UTSA, ODU, Charlotte, and Georgia State. His comment was not directed at Georgia Southern or App.
05-13-2015 06:28 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 01:52 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  What this doesn't do is break it down in what each of those schools spends on each sport...

what it does do is letting you think is the sole reason for the Percent Subsidy.

If school A has 16 sports and team B has 13 and team A drops 3 sports I'm positive the Percent Subsidy would be a lot lower and if team B added the 3 it wou;d be a lot higher.

What it also doesn't say is the level of support each school gives to each sport. I know Western and MUTS spends a lot more on basketball than say Appy or GASO. Probably a few million more when you add in men and woman's basketball.

Since the biggest chunk of the Subsidy goes to cover tuition (largest bill for all of us) the total number of scholarships plays a large role in the % of Percent Subsidy. So unless you can break it down and compare apples to apples it's meaningless because we all know not everyone does budgets the same way...

a ASU fan should know this first hand...ask Chief :)

If you drop under 16 sports you aren't in FBS.
05-13-2015 08:27 AM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #31
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 02:01 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:01 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Here is my concern when it comes to student fees.

We are moving into a phase where competition for students is going to become more fierce.
Total college enrollment is expected to fall over the next decade and right now the political trend is that funding for higher ed is easy to cut with little political fallout.

So schools will be competing for fewer students while many schools will likely increase how many students they admit in order to gain tuition and fee income.

If a school is highly dependent on university and student income for athletics they could be in dire financial straits if they lose enrollment or if operating costs increase and those costs cannot be met from the university and student sources.

Western's enroll has started to drop after steady increases over the last 5+ years. State money has continue to drop...

8 million in less funds from both had to be cut from this years budget. I believe it played a role in the dropping of the swim/diving teams...along with the other factors. But by dropping 3 sports it saves $910,000 a year. I believe Western's cost of attendance is going to be $950,000 a year. I think we will see more schools dropping a few sports and bylaws changed in the number you must have...if the flat enrollment numbers continue

I expect some FBS to drop down to the 16 sport minimum but most FBS schools are higher profile and likely to be enrollment winners (I suspect enrollment is a big reason EKU wants FBS). An FBS can kick the can down the road playing an extra game for a million bucks.

Division I as a whole already has a large number of schools who do not award all their allowed scholarships (in FBS you've no choice you must offer 200) and are at the Division I minimum of 14 sports and awarding half the permitted aid. Those schools just don't have the room to trim their budget.

Last time we had a downward enrollment trend we not only saw schools drop football but drop athletics. We saw schools close and schools get merged.

Here in Arkansas we saw private Little Rock University go into the UA system. Arkansas AM&N got swallowed by UA to become UAPB, and Arkansas A&M got absorbed as Arkansas-Monticello. That all happened in less than three years as those schools all nearly went under.

Some smaller enrollment schools will fold, not far from either of our schools, Lambuth went from being a small private to a campus of the University of Memphis.

AState has absorbed four jucos in the past few years (counting Mid-South Community College effective July 1).

It will be like the bank panic in "It's A Wonderful Life". Schools in good financial shape are going to be buying and gaining market share.

I know WKU has dropped two sports (the swim/dive thing may not be permanent), UALR has dropped women's tennis and the oddball is Texas-Arlington adding a sport. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself wiggle room on the budget or choosing to allocate money in a way that will give you a greater return.

First thing our AD did was toss the facility plan Malzahn and the prior AD had drawn up because it did not include any revenue producing.

As for budgets, there is no way to compare apples and oranges. Every state has different reporting methods. I asked our former governor how AState was going to hit $20 million in budget so fast and his answer was 1. they are raising more money than ever. 2. they are now reporting booster club expenditures for athletics in the budget. Stroke of a pen and several million appears that was already there, but our past president never wanted it there, he wanted the athletic budget to look very small.

Subsidy is as useful of a measure as is readily available simply because it gives you some idea of how much an athletic department relies on the school and students to fund the choices they make. In two or three years when the USA Today numbers for the upcoming year emerge WKU's subsidy level will likely be quite a bit lower simply because WKU is making different choices, AState's will drop because AState is changing its accounting practices to be in line with the majority of schools. Without specific knowledge you cannot discern that from the raw percentage but both will look healthier financially and less reliant on the school.
05-13-2015 08:53 AM
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DawggoneEagle Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

Yes, Georgia State does, they could bring in mobile bleachers, a couple of porta potties, and a concessions trailer to Piedmont Park and that'd serve their immediate needs quite well.
05-13-2015 11:22 AM
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FLEagle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 11:22 AM)DawggoneEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

Yes, Georgia State does, they could bring in mobile bleachers, a couple of porta potties, and a concessions trailer to Piedmont Park and that'd serve their immediate needs quite well.


I'd buy season tickets if we could bring in beers from Park Tavern.
05-13-2015 12:36 PM
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panama Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 11:22 AM)DawggoneEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

Yes, Georgia State does, they could bring in mobile bleachers, a couple of porta potties, and a concessions trailer to Piedmont Park and that'd serve their immediate needs quite well.
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXkuMLoeHcRtDK42dli97...rUuMDG1Xfw]
05-13-2015 12:44 PM
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moehler Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Data on new programs
If you guys are correct that in the near future you will see a drop in students attending collage, combined with increase cost to run a collage athletic dept, I think you will see, atleast at the mid major level, programs being cut, and efforts to form more regional conferences. I think we should really pay attention to the next tv contract USA gets, if it underwhelms, and they get far less money than they did in the past, I believe it will force ADs to atleast consider the possibility of eventually reforming conferences based on region rather than tv markets. As much as I enjoy being in the SBC, I don't know if App could afford to turn down an offer to join a more consolidated, regional conference, for no other reason rather than a cost cutting measure. Personally, I could see in the next 5 years the SBC and USA membership totally different than it is today, with the northern schools such as App, Charlotte, Marshall, ODU, maybe Georgia Southern and others in one conference, and the southern schools such as ULL, ARK St, USA etc. in the other conference. Point is, if things don't change and we keep moving forward at this pace, eventually they will have to change their mindset, we just will not be able to afford this current trend in athletic spending.
05-13-2015 12:57 PM
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NCeagle Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 12:44 PM)panama Wrote:  
(05-13-2015 11:22 AM)DawggoneEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

Yes, Georgia State does, they could bring in mobile bleachers, a couple of porta potties, and a concessions trailer to Piedmont Park and that'd serve their immediate needs quite well.
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXkuMLoeHcRtDK42dli97...rUuMDG1Xfw]


I know you don't have the best reading comprehension, so I will elaborate.

He was making a joke about your attendance, saying that those items he listed, would support the amount of fans that show up to Georgia State games.

Now I see you posted a picture of Turner Field. That is great. But I hope you realize it will take more than a renovated baseball stadium to win games. After all, the Georgia Dome is the greatest venue in the world.
05-13-2015 01:44 PM
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panama Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 01:44 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  
(05-13-2015 12:44 PM)panama Wrote:  
(05-13-2015 11:22 AM)DawggoneEagle Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:31 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

USA probably wouldn't have a team if they didn't have that tired old stadium to play in. We don't like Ladd-Peebles but we're grateful it was already there. It made the jump possible.

But it can be a double edged sword. Neither Ga State nor USA have a 'right sized' on-campus stadium. It creates other issues. USA cannot raise money from box seat sales and has more difficulty with student attendance as a result.

Having a right sized OCS is expensive, but can create other revenue streams as well. Having a rich donor build USA a stadium with lots of box seats would probably help the 'bottom line'.

But understand that there's a difference between a FCS to FBS move up and a NEW program, such as USA, UTSA, Charlotte, or Georgia State. We don't have any football history with the alumni or the town.

Yes, Georgia State does, they could bring in mobile bleachers, a couple of porta potties, and a concessions trailer to Piedmont Park and that'd serve their immediate needs quite well.
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXkuMLoeHcRtDK42dli97...rUuMDG1Xfw]


I know you don't have the best reading comprehension, so I will elaborate.

He was making a joke about your attendance, saying that those items he listed, would support the amount of fans that show up to Georgia State games.

Now I see you posted a picture of Turner Field. That is great. But I hope you realize it will take more than a renovated baseball stadium to win games. After all, the Georgia Dome is the greatest venue in the world.

Not my problem. Win 6 or go home Mr Miles. And yes the Dome is a great venue. Completely not believing driving down Northside Drive yesterday and new stadium is 1/3 built.
05-13-2015 02:07 PM
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LUSportsFan Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Data on new programs
(05-12-2015 07:36 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 11:16 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 10:42 AM)slycat Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what each schools athletic budget is as well. Those with a higher overall budget may have a higher subsidy to offset that increase. TXST likes to show they have a strong budget but they also have a high (70%) subsidy.

Also schools like UAB, UTSA, GSU, USA, and USF are interesting because they don't have football stadiums they had to build or expand for FBS football. If they had these high costs that other had then I'm sure subsidies would go up as well.

From that perspective, congrats to App St who have done very well while facing those challenges.

The article has a lot of good information.

Using Texas State as an example debt service may be temporarily skewing the numbers for some of the programs. A lot of the current Texas State subsidy is probably associated with debt service. As part of The Drive, there was a large capital improvement program. Based on the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics database, Texas State's debt service went from around $1.054 million per year in 2008 to $4.6 million per year in 2013 (the most recent review year). My understanding is that the student body agreed to an increase in student fees to help with paying off the debt. (Personally, I think student fees should be in a category separate from the subsidy category, particularly if the fees also include or allow reduced access cost to athletic events.)

Taking it a little further, it would be interesting to review the percentage of debt service to the overall athletic budget for the established programs moving up vs the start up programs.

http://spendingdatabase.knightcommission.org/

Debt Service can be found by drilling down on the "Other" category in the database.

The Texas State increase in the athletic fee was for FBS football. That was similar to the athletic fee voted for at Lamar in order to bring back football.

The debt service is $3.6 million annually. Revenue was $32 million last year, so the revenue has tripled since 2008. So the large increase in revenue more than covers the debt service. The athletic fee is over 50% of the revenue. We have a lot of students.

I don't think the 70% subsidy is a problem at this point. We are at the early stages of the move to FBS. Besides, the student support for the athletic fee increase was passed with about 80% approval.

I agree with everything you are saying except that based on the Knight Commission data I linked, the debt service in 2013 was $4.6 million for Texas State. ($4,602,300 to take it down to the dollar.)

http://spendingdatabase.knightcommission...ion_data-3

All I was trying to point out is that debt service might skew the numbers when attempting to make a comparison using current budgets of programs that moved up as early as 1996 vs recent move ups. Some sort of normalization might be necessary to get a true picture.

The other thing that I question is the practice of including all student fees with true subsidies. Students at Texas State (and many other universities utilizing student fees) are allowed "free" admission to all athletic events. With the student fee, the students have prepaid their cost of admission. In effect, the student has purchased season tickets to all athletic events via the payment of student fees. Whether the student takes advantage of the "free" admission is not an issue.

Below is what Texas State charges for season tickets using the cost for general admission or for reserved if no general admission is noted.

Football $ 70.00
Basketball $130.00
Volleyball $ 35.00
Baseball $125.00
Softball $ 65.00
Total $425.00

http://www.txstatebobcats.com/sports/201...enttickets
http://www.txstatebobcats.com/sports/201...icketprice

If the payment of student fees provided no benefit to the individual student, I would agree with including them in the subsidy category. I'll even agree that the remainder of total student fees less the equivalent cost of admission for an individual off the street to attend athletic events could be considered subsidies. I think lumping student fees in without adjustments for value given with true subsidies overstates the percentage of subsidies. Using the above ticket costs for illustration, I think $425.00 per student should be removed from the subsidy category for Texas State.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2015 05:13 PM by LUSportsFan.)
05-13-2015 05:01 PM
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appsfan Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Data on new programs
It appears that tradition matters, especially the last 15 to 20 years for move ups.
05-13-2015 06:29 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Data on new programs
(05-13-2015 05:01 PM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  I agree with everything you are saying except that based on the Knight Commission data I linked, the debt service in 2013 was $4.6 million for Texas State. ($4,602,300 to take it down to the dollar.)

http://spendingdatabase.knightcommission...ion_data-3

All I was trying to point out is that debt service might skew the numbers when attempting to make a comparison using current budgets of programs that moved up as early as 1996 vs recent move ups. Some sort of normalization might be necessary to get a true picture.

The other thing that I question is the practice of including all student fees with true subsidies. Students at Texas State (and many other universities utilizing student fees) are allowed "free" admission to all athletic events. With the student fee, the students have prepaid their cost of admission. In effect, the student has purchased season tickets to all athletic events via the payment of student fees. Whether the student takes advantage of the "free" admission is not an issue.

The Texas State athletic budget shows a number of $3.6 million for athletic debt service. That is for 2013, 2014, 2015. I don't know where the number of $4.6 million comes from.

You may have a point with the athletic fee not being a true subsidy. It is the reason that I don't see a 70% subsidy as a problem for Texas State.
05-14-2015 07:23 PM
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