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OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #41
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-10-2015 11:11 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I love being the rogue franchise. I envied the Raiders in the 70's.

You go on believing that.
05-10-2015 12:23 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #42
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
It's crap like this is why I don't watch the NFL. Half the league is on PEDs. They'll suspend a guy multiple games for a suspected crime that doesn't even get charges pressed against him, but only after a faux-public "outrage" that's mostly limited to media members. And they care more about pot smoking than blatant cheating.

I've watched a total of two NFL games in the last 4 years so I don't have any skin in this game.

Pats fans can blame it on "hating" all they want, but denial is an ugly thing.
05-10-2015 12:23 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #43
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
Not that I condone cheating but this had no effect on the game. I really don't care or think it matters, even if he had been doing it for years.

It does, however, take some of the shine off the organization for being known cheaters repeatedly but for this incident isolated by itself? I'm not fazed.
05-10-2015 01:33 PM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #44
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-10-2015 01:33 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Not that I condone cheating but this had no effect on the game. I really don't care or think it matters, even if he had been doing it for years.

It does, however, take some of the shine off the organization for being known cheaters repeatedly but for this incident isolated by itself? I'm not fazed.

There was rule (championed by him), he knowingly broke the rule, then lied about knowingly breaking said rule and finally obstructed the investigation into his breaking of said rule.

If it had no effect on the game, as you (and Patriots fans) say, then why is their a rule for it? Patriots fans can't/won't answer it.
05-10-2015 01:46 PM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
Because they still easily won the game.
05-11-2015 07:01 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #46
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-09-2015 06:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  And the "had no impact" argument is maybe the lamest ever. I mean, imagine if before a Poker game I stuff a couple of aces up my sleave and use them to give me four of a kind and win a huge pot, but it turns out I didn't need them because without them I would have had a Full House, which would have won the pot anyway? If I was caught using those aces, would the game officials and other players exonerate me from the cheating charge and I would get to keep the pot if I could show that I didn't really need the bogus aces to win it?

03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao

Game set match. This might be your best post ever Quo

(05-10-2015 01:46 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 01:33 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Not that I condone cheating but this had no effect on the game. I really don't care or think it matters, even if he had been doing it for years.

There was rule (championed by him), he knowingly broke the rule, then lied about knowingly breaking said rule and finally obstructed the investigation into his breaking of said rule.

If it had no effect on the game, as you (and Patriots fans) say, then why is their a rule for it? Patriots fans can't/won't answer it.


You know, I completely forgot about this. He championed the rule that ultimately allowed such shenanigans to happen. That is a double ouch.
05-11-2015 09:15 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #47
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-10-2015 01:46 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 01:33 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Not that I condone cheating but this had no effect on the game. I really don't care or think it matters, even if he had been doing it for years.

It does, however, take some of the shine off the organization for being known cheaters repeatedly but for this incident isolated by itself? I'm not fazed.

There was rule (championed by him), he knowingly broke the rule, then lied about knowingly breaking said rule and finally obstructed the investigation into his breaking of said rule.

If it had no effect on the game, as you (and Patriots fans) say, then why is their a rule for it? Patriots fans can't/won't answer it.

Good question. Why is there a rule?

According to claims repeated by the prosecution in this case, it has been "common knowledge" throughout the NFL for years that Brady used footballs that were below the minimum spec, and nobody objected to it, including the other 31 teams who would be harmed if that practice gave him an unfair advantage.

Now, I don't have any way of knowing if that allegation, or any other allegations repeated in the Wells Report, are actually true. And I'm not a lawyer. But I'm given to believe that if parties (in this case the NFL and other teams) knowingly, and for an extended period of time, willingly acquiesce to a practice that is against their interest, they effectively waive their right to exert a claim for damages later.

So either the other teams do not/did not believe that using footballs inflated below 12.5 psi gives an opposing QB an advantage, or they don't care if it does. In the NFL's case, one could make the argument that they actually prefer that a QB be allowed to use whatever ball he likes, which is why they changed their procedures 9 years ago.

If the NFL has no effective procedures to assure that footballs used in a game remain within their arbitrary spec, and has pretty much ignored this rule from its inception, then why have a spec at all?
05-11-2015 10:51 AM
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prp Offline
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Post: #48
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
The question for me is how Brady cheated. One of two things was happening. Either

a) The Pats were underinflating the balls and hoping the refs wouldn't notice

or

b) The Pats were inflating the balls properly and then after the refs had inspected and approved the balls, were altering them

If it's (a), it's the refs job to make the balls are up to spec and teams play within the rules. If the refs are allowing underinflated balls into the games that they themselves had approved, I don't really fault Brady. If it's (b), however, I think that's a much bigger deal and worthy of harsh punishment. In that case, Brady and the Pats are intentionally deceiving the refs and preventing them from properly doing their jobs.

The report does provide evidence that something suspicious was happening, but it does not clearly determine which of the two situations was at play here. The other issue is regarding the investigation and whether Brady and the Pats were truthful. From past investigations and punishments, the act of lying and covering up is often seen as worse than the actual crime.

My guess, Brady will get a two-game suspension and the Pats will pay a fine and everybody will move on.
(This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 12:08 PM by prp.)
05-11-2015 12:08 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #49
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 12:08 PM)prp Wrote:  The question for me is how Brady cheated. One of two things was happening. Either

a) The Pats were underinflating the balls and hoping the refs wouldn't notice

or

b) The Pats were inflating the balls properly and then after the refs had inspected and approved the balls, were altering them

If it's (a), it's the refs job to make the balls are up to spec and teams play within the rules. If the refs are allowing underinflated balls into the games that they themselves had approved, I don't really fault Brady. If it's (b), however, I think that's a much bigger deal and worthy of harsh punishment. In that case, Brady and the Pats are intentionally deceiving the refs and preventing them from properly doing their jobs.

The report does provide evidence that something suspicious was happening, but it does not clearly determine which of the two situations was at play here. The other issue is regarding the investigation and whether Brady and the Pats were truthful. From past investigations and punishments, the act of lying and covering up is often seen as worse than the actual crime.

My guess, Brady will get a two-game suspension and the Pats will pay a fine and everybody will move on.

Seems to me you are making something of a leap from "someone underinflated the footballs" to "Tom Brady cheated". From the description of events between the time the Jets (or the referees) apparently tampered with the Pats footballs in October to the AFC Championship game, the relationship between Brady and the people in the Pats organization who prepare or control the footballs he uses was strained - to the point those people were threatening to sabotage Brady by messing with the footballs after he approved them for play.

Another possibility not addressed is that the Pats may have underinflated the footballs with the consent (either tacit or explicit) of the game officials and/or the NFL. Certainly the actions of the referee prior to and during the championship game had a Sgt Schultz quality to them ("I see nothing, I know nothing").
05-11-2015 12:48 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #50
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 10:51 AM)ken d Wrote:  So either the other teams do not/did not believe that using footballs inflated below 12.5 psi gives an opposing QB an advantage, or they don't care if it does. In the NFL's case, one could make the argument that they actually prefer that a QB be allowed to use whatever ball he likes, which is why they changed their procedures 9 years ago.

If the NFL has no effective procedures to assure that footballs used in a game remain within their arbitrary spec, and has pretty much ignored this rule from its inception, then why have a spec at all?


If this were true we would not have an issue. But we have an issue, because a player on an opposing team found out about it (via intercepting the ball), told his team's management, who alerted the Colts, who then made it an issue. Obviously someone felt it was an advantage.

The other thing is, the NFL used to keep control of the balls. Until two very prominent quarterbacks lobbied them to change the rules, so that they could have control of their own balls prior to the game. One of those QB's is the man in question here. Which makes it more damning.

If police know a certain establishment has a history of allowing prostitution and gambling to go on, and they finally get enough info to make a bust, do you think the defense can use the fact that the police knew about it for a long enough time that it obviously never bothered anyone, as a defense? What kills me is people are not saying it didn't happen. They are trying to make excuses as to why it doesn't matter. Where were these people when Bounty-Gate was around? Hell that wasn't even breaking any actual rules of the game. Why is it when Josh Gordon is suspended for a year for smoking weed, no one points out that smoking herb does not actually help one play football better? Why does no one point out that Adrian Peterson beating his son with a whip did not help him rush for any more yards, and thus he should not be suspended? Amazing how all of a sudden, how much it affects the game comes into play when the Patriots or Tom Brady are involved. But no one else gets this benefit of the doubt?
05-11-2015 03:30 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 03:30 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 10:51 AM)ken d Wrote:  So either the other teams do not/did not believe that using footballs inflated below 12.5 psi gives an opposing QB an advantage, or they don't care if it does. In the NFL's case, one could make the argument that they actually prefer that a QB be allowed to use whatever ball he likes, which is why they changed their procedures 9 years ago.

If the NFL has no effective procedures to assure that footballs used in a game remain within their arbitrary spec, and has pretty much ignored this rule from its inception, then why have a spec at all?


If this were true we would not have an issue. But we have an issue, because a player on an opposing team found out about it (via intercepting the ball), told his team's management, who alerted the Colts, who then made it an issue. Obviously someone felt it was an advantage.

The other thing is, the NFL used to keep control of the balls. Until two very prominent quarterbacks lobbied them to change the rules, so that they could have control of their own balls prior to the game. One of those QB's is the man in question here. Which makes it more damning.

If police know a certain establishment has a history of allowing prostitution and gambling to go on, and they finally get enough info to make a bust, do you think the defense can use the fact that the police knew about it for a long enough time that it obviously never bothered anyone, as a defense? What kills me is people are not saying it didn't happen. They are trying to make excuses as to why it doesn't matter. Where were these people when Bounty-Gate was around? Hell that wasn't even breaking any actual rules of the game. Why is it when Josh Gordon is suspended for a year for smoking weed, no one points out that smoking herb does not actually help one play football better? Why does no one point out that Adrian Peterson beating his son with a whip did not help him rush for any more yards, and thus he should not be suspended? Amazing how all of a sudden, how much it affects the game comes into play when the Patriots or Tom Brady are involved. But no one else gets this benefit of the doubt?

You didn't quote my first two paragraphs which provide context for the part you did quote. And the NFL didn't change their rules for two quarterbacks. There were, as I recall, about 20 QB's who lobbied for the change, including Manning and Brady. At the time, the NFL was using brand new footballs, right out of the box, for the Super Bowl. That's what the QB's asked to be changed.

The fact remains that this is a rule that nobody paid the slightest attention to for years, and for good reason. My post was in response to the question why is there such a rule? There's no good answer to that question.
05-11-2015 04:01 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #52
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
I don't quote the rest because I wanted to trim down the post. It didn't change the context And you recall incorrectly; it was two QB's who lead the charge.
05-11-2015 04:22 PM
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Pony94 Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
@AdamSchefter
Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:
05-11-2015 04:37 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
Hammer dropped
05-11-2015 04:38 PM
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 04:37 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  @AdamSchefter
Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:

Not enough. And BS that Bellicheat wasn't suspended.
05-11-2015 04:44 PM
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e-parade Offline
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Post: #56
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:37 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  @AdamSchefter
Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:

Not enough. And BS that Bellicheat wasn't suspended.

This is the largest single punishment given to a team in NFL history (Saints got 2 2nd rounders for Bountygate, Broncos were fined $1 million twice end each time lost a 4th but no 1sts) and the Wells report said literally nothing about Belichick, how would he have been suspended for it?

Or are you talking about the suspension portion?
05-11-2015 04:56 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 04:56 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:37 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  @AdamSchefter
Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:

Not enough. And BS that Bellicheat wasn't suspended.

This is the largest single punishment given to a team in NFL history (Saints got 2 2nd rounders for Bountygate, Broncos were fined $1 million twice end each time lost a 4th but no 1sts) and the Wells report said literally nothing about Belichick, how would he have been suspended for it?

Or are you talking about the suspension portion?

Suspension portion.


And players have been suspended longer. This type of cheating is far, far worse than smoking some weed
05-11-2015 05:04 PM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
Kangaroo Court.

But it's not the end if the world. Brady is older and can benefit from a shorter season. The AFC East is a joke, so we'll still win the division. On to the Super Bowl.
05-11-2015 05:08 PM
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Post: #59
RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 05:08 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Kangaroo Court.

But it's not the end if the world. Brady is older and can benefit from a shorter season. The AFC East is a joke, so we'll still win the division. On to the Super Bowl.

I suggest you read about the report. Brady was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Bellichek wasn't implicated at all.
05-11-2015 05:11 PM
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e-parade Offline
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RE: OT: DeflateGate Report: Brady Cheated ... Kraft, it's time to Apologize
(05-11-2015 05:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:56 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 04:37 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  @AdamSchefter
Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:

Not enough. And BS that Bellicheat wasn't suspended.

This is the largest single punishment given to a team in NFL history (Saints got 2 2nd rounders for Bountygate, Broncos were fined $1 million twice end each time lost a 4th but no 1sts) and the Wells report said literally nothing about Belichick, how would he have been suspended for it?

Or are you talking about the suspension portion?

Suspension portion.


And players have been suspended longer. This type of cheating is far, far worse than smoking some weed

Okay, but that was with the old policy. The new policy is 2 games for the first drug offense. The longer suspensions come with repeated violations and such.

PEDs (more logical comparison) can be broken down in either to 2 or 4 game suspensions. This 4 game one would put it in line with steroids and HGH suspensions.
05-11-2015 05:15 PM
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