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CincyBro Offline
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Post: #1
Crosstown Shootout
According to sports reports tonight the game is Saturday, Dec. 12.
 
05-05-2015 06:09 PM
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Post: #2
RE: Crosstown Shootout
You can thank Fox for the early date.
 
05-05-2015 06:16 PM
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Coopdaddy67 Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
I'd rather it be earlier than in the middle of the conference season.
 
05-05-2015 06:47 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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Re: RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 06:47 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  I'd rather it be earlier than in the middle of the conference season.

Completely agree. Non conference games belong in November-December. February is for focusing on a conference championship.
 
05-05-2015 07:00 PM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?
 
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 09:48 PM by Bearcats#1.)
05-05-2015 09:48 PM
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Overrated Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.
 
05-05-2015 09:55 PM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

What does it look like over the last ten years?

And that aside, they make more money off TV than we do (with NO football), they have a better arena and better recruiting classes, and are in a better conference. It is what it is.
 
05-05-2015 09:57 PM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

Stop using facts, you'll ruin the pity party.
 
05-05-2015 09:57 PM
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Bearcats#1 Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:57 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

Stop using facts, you'll ruin the pity party.

Facts? You mean like this:

Better arena: XU
Better Conference: XU
Better TV money: XU

like those facts?
 
05-05-2015 09:58 PM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:58 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:57 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

Stop using facts, you'll ruin the pity party.

Facts? You mean like this:

Better arena: XU
Better Conference: XU
Better TV money: XU

like those facts?
If those are the facts that determine how good your program is Depaul also better than us?
 
05-05-2015 10:05 PM
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Overrated Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:57 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  What does it look like over the last ten years?

You mean when we were in full rebuild mode after our program was decimated? Just admit you said something stupid instead of continuing to look like an idiot by fighting it.
 
05-05-2015 10:14 PM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 10:05 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:58 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:57 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

Stop using facts, you'll ruin the pity party.

Facts? You mean like this:

Better arena: XU
Better Conference: XU
Better TV money: XU

like those facts?
If those are the facts that determine how good your program is Depaul also better than us?

I never said these are the only facts....the biggest one I didn't list and why DePaul isn't in the discussion is this: XU has owned us
 
05-05-2015 10:26 PM
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CincyBro Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 10:14 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:57 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  What does it look like over the last ten years?

You mean when we were in full rebuild mode after our program was decimated? Just admit you said something stupid instead of continuing to look like an idiot by fighting it.

If your fifth starter is a walk-on from the football team, I would say that's the start of a pretty big rebuild, wouldn't you?
 
05-06-2015 07:50 AM
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Milhouse12 Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
You also can't just cherry pick years. Yeah UC had a tough rebuild but even last 5 years X has more Wins in tournament, more players drafted, lead head to head record etc...

The "luck in the tournament" thing is stupid too. There's always luck involved in the tournament...See Butler/Pitt in '11, the list goes on and on and on for anyone that watches all the games closely. I'm sure you could point to some mental mistake a kid on the purdue team made in the last 45 seconds of the UC/Purdue game and that lead to a series of events that lead to UC scoring and eventually leading up to a tie. But is that not considered luck? It's the way the cards are dealt. I think the way X played Arizona proved they deserved to be in the sweet 16.

I think the programs are at a similar stage both adjusting to their new conferences. I'd say X's ceiling is higher. Prolly cuz I'm an X fan but I also think conference affiliation has a lot to do with it...but we'll know a lot more in the next 5 years.
 
05-06-2015 08:00 AM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-06-2015 08:00 AM)Milhouse12 Wrote:  You also can't just cherry pick years. Yeah UC had a tough rebuild but even last 5 years X has more Wins in tournament, more players drafted, lead head to head record etc...

The "luck in the tournament" thing is stupid too. There's always luck involved in the tournament...See Butler/Pitt in '11, the list goes on and on and on for anyone that watches all the games closely. I'm sure you could point to some mental mistake a kid on the purdue team made in the last 45 seconds of the UC/Purdue game and that lead to a series of events that lead to UC scoring and eventually leading up to a tie. But is that not considered luck? It's the way the cards are dealt. I think the way X played Arizona proved they deserved to be in the sweet 16.

I think the programs are at a similar stage both adjusting to their new conferences. I'd say X's ceiling is higher. Prolly cuz I'm an X fan but I also think conference affiliation has a lot to do with it...but we'll know a lot more in the next 5 years.

I tend to disagree with that statement that Xavier has a higher ceiling. A renovated arena will probably become the engine for another run for UC. What hurts Xavier is that the Big East plays it games on FS1, which is a wasteland in terms of viewership. There is also the problem that schools without FBS football tend to be viewed as "mid-majors" or "small schools" even if the facts say otherwise. UC's issues right now is an old outdated arena and a conference that it my view has underperformed in basketball despite UConn's national title.

I don't like the game being played in December but that is Xavier's call when it is their home game. It might be better for UC because December is usually the best time of the year to steal a road game if the students are studying for exams or already off campus.
 
05-06-2015 08:26 AM
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robertfoshizzle Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

That's great, but I don't measure success by Kenpom rankings. I measure success by NCAA tournament wins. Xavier has made the Sweet 16 5 of the past 8 years. We have to go back 25 years to find 5 Sweet 16 runs. I would argue that over the past 15 years, Xavier has been the better program. As I pointed out in a different thread, they are 21-15 against us since 1979-80. By most objective measures, they have been the better program of late. That doesn't mean doom and gloom for us -- it just means Xavier has built themselves into a very good basketball program.
 
05-06-2015 08:43 AM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-06-2015 08:26 AM)bearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  
(05-06-2015 08:00 AM)Milhouse12 Wrote:  You also can't just cherry pick years. Yeah UC had a tough rebuild but even last 5 years X has more Wins in tournament, more players drafted, lead head to head record etc...

The "luck in the tournament" thing is stupid too. There's always luck involved in the tournament...See Butler/Pitt in '11, the list goes on and on and on for anyone that watches all the games closely. I'm sure you could point to some mental mistake a kid on the purdue team made in the last 45 seconds of the UC/Purdue game and that lead to a series of events that lead to UC scoring and eventually leading up to a tie. But is that not considered luck? It's the way the cards are dealt. I think the way X played Arizona proved they deserved to be in the sweet 16.

I think the programs are at a similar stage both adjusting to their new conferences. I'd say X's ceiling is higher. Prolly cuz I'm an X fan but I also think conference affiliation has a lot to do with it...but we'll know a lot more in the next 5 years.

I tend to disagree with that statement that Xavier has a higher ceiling. A renovated arena will probably become the engine for another run for UC. What hurts Xavier is that the Big East plays it games on FS1, which is a wasteland in terms of viewership. There is also the problem that schools without FBS football tend to be viewed as "mid-majors" or "small schools" even if the facts say otherwise. UC's issues right now is an old outdated arena and a conference that it my view has underperformed in basketball despite UConn's national title.

I don't like the game being played in December but that is Xavier's call when it is their home game. It might be better for UC because December is usually the best time of the year to steal a road game if the students are studying for exams or already off campus.

Eh I'm not sure how much the FS1 viewership #s are hurting X. They still get 3 Million a year from FS1 and honestly every single game is on the channels. Huge upgrade from Foxsports Ohio/random channels in the A10. Every game on national TV is nice to sell to recruits. I don't think ESPN/FS1 matters much in that regard. Probably in as much as Adidas/Nike debate. Not having football can either be a blessing or a burden. There is no doubt at X that BBall is #1 (as its all there is). So if a recruit wants to go to a basketball school that will never be overshadowed by a football team it's there.

It's funny in how the narrative has changed for both schools. I used to love X playing an OOC game in February when we were in the A10 as it added a quality opponent late in the season. We had games against Florida, LSU, Georgia, and Memphis in Feb in Mack's tenure. Nice resume boosters if you win. Especially in the A10 it was nice to have compared to say Duquense, Fordham, LaSalle etc...

Now in the Big East we had our UC Game sandwhiched between Butler (ranked at the time) and St. Johns (NCAA tournament team), with a game vs. Villanova later that week. So with that schedule I'd rather play it in the OOC, cuz frankly in Feb I'm much more concerned about in conference games and seeding at that point.

But it works out as when it's at X it's in Dec. When it's at UC its in Feb. Also this will likely be a night game and also X student's wont be on break yet. It's the weekend before Exams.
 
05-06-2015 08:44 AM
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Milhouse12 Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-06-2015 08:43 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:55 PM)Overrated Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  XU is our big brother now....better program, better conference, better arena, they make more money off TV.

How did this happen?

Here are the rankings by KenPom (S-Curve the committee releases) tournament seed and then tournament result.

.............Xavier............................................UC
2011: 39 (n/a) 6 seed 1st RD L..............21 (n/a) 6 seed 2nd Rd loss
2012: 48 (40) 10 seed Sweet 16............26 (22) 6 seed Sweet 16
2013: 77 (Missed NIT) N/A N/A..............42 (37) 10 seed 1st Rd loss
2014: 59 (46) 12 seed L Play in game......23 (17) 5 seed 1st Rd loss
2015: 22 (24) 6 seed Sweet 16.................36 (29) 8 seed 2nd Rd loss


I don't know how you don't objectively look at that and say UC has clearly been better. They haven't missed the tournament once. If the field hadn't expanded, Xavier would have missed it twice in the last 5 years. 3 of the last 5 years UC has advanced further in the tournament. One year they went the same distance, but Xavier had a considerably easier path due to luck (and X was ranked much worse that year as well). And then this year Xavier was slightly better but again got lucky to draw a 14 seed in the second round.

That's great, but I don't measure success by Kenpom rankings. I measure success by NCAA tournament wins. Xavier has made the Sweet 16 5 of the past 8 years. We have to go back 25 years to find 5 Sweet 16 runs. I would argue that over the past 15 years, Xavier has been the better program. As I pointed out in a different thread, they are 21-15 against us since 1979-80. By most objective measures, they have been the better program of late. That doesn't mean doom and gloom for us -- it just means Xavier has built themselves into a very good basketball program.

1980 Was when Staak came on board and X really started to invest in the program as well. I believed they moved their games to the Gardens right around this time too.
 
05-06-2015 08:46 AM
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Overrated Offline
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-06-2015 08:00 AM)Milhouse12 Wrote:  You also can't just cherry pick years. Yeah UC had a tough rebuild but even last 5 years X has more Wins in tournament, more players drafted, lead head to head record etc...

The "luck in the tournament" thing is stupid too. There's always luck involved in the tournament...See Butler/Pitt in '11, the list goes on and on and on for anyone that watches all the games closely. I'm sure you could point to some mental mistake a kid on the purdue team made in the last 45 seconds of the UC/Purdue game and that lead to a series of events that lead to UC scoring and eventually leading up to a tie. But is that not considered luck? It's the way the cards are dealt. I think the way X played Arizona proved they deserved to be in the sweet 16.

I think the programs are at a similar stage both adjusting to their new conferences. I'd say X's ceiling is higher. Prolly cuz I'm an X fan but I also think conference affiliation has a lot to do with it...but we'll know a lot more in the next 5 years.

There was no cherry picking of years. We went through an enormous rebuild. Since we have gotten back, we have been the better program. And it's pretty clear. Xavier does not have more wins in the tournament in the last 5 years. The 2 times they have been to the sweet 16, they played a 15 seed and a 14 seed instead of a 2 seed and a 3 seed. That is incredibly fortunate. They also missed the tournament once and lost in a play in game (and wouldn't have even made the tournament if the field hadn't expanded) another time. UC has gone further in the tournament 3 out of the last 5 years. Another time they both went to the sweet 16. Of course UC beat a 3 seed in the round of 32 and Xavier beat a 15. And then Xavier went one round further this year, while getting fortunate on the draw. You would have to only care about the crosstown shootout to suggest Xavier has been better than UC the last 5 years. Otherwise if you add up all of that, plus the clear regular season superiority of UC in the last 5 years as pointed out in my original post of this thread, it's very obvious who has been better.
 
05-06-2015 08:59 AM
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RE: Crosstown Shootout
(05-06-2015 08:00 AM)Milhouse12 Wrote:  You also can't just cherry pick years. Yeah UC had a tough rebuild but even last 5 years X has more Wins in tournament, more players drafted, lead head to head record etc...

The "luck in the tournament" thing is stupid too. There's always luck involved in the tournament...See Butler/Pitt in '11, the list goes on and on and on for anyone that watches all the games closely. I'm sure you could point to some mental mistake a kid on the purdue team made in the last 45 seconds of the UC/Purdue game and that lead to a series of events that lead to UC scoring and eventually leading up to a tie. But is that not considered luck? It's the way the cards are dealt. I think the way X played Arizona proved they deserved to be in the sweet 16.

I think the programs are at a similar stage both adjusting to their new conferences. I'd say X's ceiling is higher. Prolly cuz I'm an X fan but I also think conference affiliation has a lot to do with it...but we'll know a lot more in the next 5 years.

X also had a ridiculous cakewalk into the tournament via the A-10. Even then there have been a heck of a lot of years over the last decade or so when by record and SOS you were really a bubble team. Thank goodness for the JV A10 tournament, right?

Even in the diluted BE - X now has to contend with teams like Gtown and Villanova and lets face it not making the tournament* the two years before the most recent (2103 and 2014) proved that your road into the tournament is no longer a given.

Please actually accomplish something - be a legit top 10 team for ONE season, get in a final four or a NC game. You don't have to win it all. Just do something that proves you have "made it" before you claim to have done so.


* Losing a "play in game" means, by definition, you didn't "play in" the tournament. In the same way that there is also no such thing as a "final 5".
 
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2015 09:10 AM by Eastside_J.)
05-06-2015 09:01 AM
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