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CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #21
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:35 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  12 is an arbitrary number so why not amend the rule to say: To stage a championship game a conference must have a minimum of 10 teams (with or without divisions) and must not play a round robin schedule. Once you do that the Big 12 can drop to an 8 game conference schedule and stage a title game.

Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

Who cares about the team with the second loss. That isn't food for thought my friend.

The food for thought is that the winner would have had erased the advantage that Ohio State gained.
04-29-2015 10:01 PM
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1845 Bear Offline
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Post: #22
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:35 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  12 is an arbitrary number so why not amend the rule to say: To stage a championship game a conference must have a minimum of 10 teams (with or without divisions) and must not play a round robin schedule. Once you do that the Big 12 can drop to an 8 game conference schedule and stage a title game.

Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

It's another chance for the league to cannibalize itself. Not only could it knock a second team out of the playoff it could also take out the ONLY contender some years OR eliminate the lower ranked team from the NYD6 potentially in certain years.
04-29-2015 10:02 PM
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1845 Bear Offline
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Post: #23
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:01 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

Who cares about the team with the second loss. That isn't food for thought my friend.

The food for thought is that the winner would have had erased the advantage that Ohio State gained.

And in years when you DON'T have two in contention they can also see the only contender knocked off eliminating any beauty contest at all.

Consider the many times that the B12CG took out the higher ranked team. Nebraska, Texas, OU, KSU, Mizzou- ALL lost when a victory would have assured a NCG appearance.
04-29-2015 10:05 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #24
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:02 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

It's another chance for the league to cannibalize itself. Not only could it knock a second team out of the playoff it could also take out the ONLY contender some years OR eliminate the lower ranked team from the NYD6 potentially in certain years.

That type of negative thinking is a major reason why the big 12 was where they were last year. TCU and Baylor had the exact same record. There is no chance of the winner not being a major candidate for the playoff. In fact, the logical conclusion would be that the winner would have looked better because both were higher ranked than Wisconsin.

You want to talk about hypothetical situations while we are talking about an actual result and how an actual big 12 championship game would have absolutely put the winner ahead of Ohio State, the presiding National Champion, in the Playoff.

That kind of negative thinking held weight around here until this past season. That is no longer the case.
04-29-2015 10:08 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #25
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:01 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

Who cares about the team with the second loss. That isn't food for thought my friend.

The food for thought is that the winner would have had erased the advantage that Ohio State gained.

But there will always be a "loser" if the best team from each of the P5 has zero or only 1 loss AND wins their championship game.

How often does/will that scenario play out?

Cheers,
Neil
04-29-2015 10:09 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #26
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:05 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 10:01 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

Who cares about the team with the second loss. That isn't food for thought my friend.

The food for thought is that the winner would have had erased the advantage that Ohio State gained.

And in years when you DON'T have two in contention they can also see the only contender knocked off eliminating any beauty contest at all.

Consider the many times that the B12CG took out the higher ranked team. Nebraska, Texas, OU, KSU, Mizzou- ALL lost when a victory would have assured a NCG appearance.

You are talking about a 2 team national championship. We are talking about a 4 team national championship that is guaranteed to expand before the 12 year contract ends. After just a single season, the cries for expansion are already painfully loud.
04-29-2015 10:10 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #27
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:09 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 10:01 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

Who cares about the team with the second loss. That isn't food for thought my friend.

The food for thought is that the winner would have had erased the advantage that Ohio State gained.

But there will always be a "loser" if the best team from each of the P5 has zero or only 1 loss AND wins their championship game.

How often does/will that scenario play out?

Cheers,
Neil

Now you see why The Big Ten, SEC, PAC and ACC like the idea of a P4 instead of a P5? Now you see why they like the idea of 4 team conference tournaments?

Even if a team with more than 1 loss wins that tournament, they will have proven they are playing extremely strong ball at the end of the season by having two big post season wins on their resume.

The pieces aren't all in place for you to see the big picture if you are someone that needs them to be all in place and for the curtain to be pulled back for you.

The pieces are there and one can put them together on their own to see how much sense that big picture makes. They have given you enough evidence to put it together, they just aren't ready to put it together for the masses yet.
04-29-2015 10:13 PM
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SO#1 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
A lot of questions…

Which is easier for B12 to do?

Find schools to add that Fox and ESPN are willing to pay more to keep same payout
Or
B12 members that have option to leave for better opportunity do so.

They don’t have to make decision right now. B12 school still make 22 million a year but going forward near the end of this decade that question needs to be answer and become more urgent as the year passes.


Let look it from FOX and ESPN point of views, which is cheaper?
Move a few valuable B12 schools to their own ledgers or pay even more for over price B12 products.

Maybe Fox and ESPN can come to an agreement which schools move to which conference and leftover consolidate with other G5 schools.

JMO – a new B12 being born at half of the cost but still consider as P5 conference (auto bid to BCS).

What future is there for the B12 in the next contract cycle when all the available school that could expand their small footprint has been already taken?

Will ESPN and FOX willing to continue work together to pay B12 even more the next contract cycle to keep up with other P5 conferences?
04-29-2015 10:16 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #29
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:02 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:56 PM)omniorange Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:49 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:47 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, they could but why would any of the Majors vote for that? What would compel them to help out the big 12 like that while not gaining anything themselves out of such an action. What could the big 12 give them?

Since they are all in autonomy decisions together it's easy to envision a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation regarding a different big issue that could impact recruiting, playoff selection, etc where the Big 12 schools could be key swing votes.

That's a very generalized response. It is not surprising that you had to answer in such a way because it would be extremely hard to come up with exact actions and details.

I still await someone coming up with such.

Well one possibility is that had the B12 been allowed a CCG last year with a 10 team conference, then Baylor or TCU would have had a second loss on their resume. So, it ensures the likelihood that only one gets in instead of two had let's say Oregon lost to Arizona and FSU lost to GT.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil

It's another chance for the league to cannibalize itself. Not only could it knock a second team out of the playoff it could also take out the ONLY contender some years OR eliminate the lower ranked team from the NYD6 potentially in certain years.

My reply has more to do with what would the SEC and B1G gain by supporting this hypothetical B12 championship game with them only having 10 teams.

So assuming everything else is equal to last year but the addition of this hypothetical B12 CCG - if Alabama wins, Ohio State wins, Oregon wins, and FSU wins, the winner of TCU/Baylor is likely in over Ohio State. But each of the CFP 4 are conference champions with zero or 1 loss.

If Alabama wins, Ohio State wins, and Oregon wins, but FSU loses, the winner of TCU/Baylor is in over FSU. Again, each of the CFP 4 are conference champions with zero or 1 loss.

If Alabama wins, Ohio State wins, Oregon loses and FSU loses, the winner of this hypothetical B12 championship game between TCU/Baylor gets in. Three are in as conference champions with 1 loss. But who is the 4th team?

Arizona? GT? as conference champions? Possibly. But it's not a guarantee. Ole Miss, Michigan State, and the loser of TCU/Baylor get some consideration for that 4th spot now, even though they are not conference champions.

So my point is that without that hypothetical B12 CCG, if Oregon loses and FSU loses BOTH TCU and Baylor get in despite not winning that 13th championship game.

Which stings more? Two teams getting in without having to play the 13th game and only having 1 loss? Or a somewhat equal playing field whereby all conference champions with zero or 1 loss are given more weight than conference champions with 2 losses and regular season teams with 2 losses?

I honestly don't know. I'm just putting it out there as I said - food for thought.

Cheers,
Neil
04-29-2015 10:28 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #30
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
No one is going to come up with any actual reasons why the other four major conferences would aid the big 12 because there is no reason for them to. You brought up some very real scenario reasons why they wouldn't help the big 12 get what they want.

Yes, the big 12 could have already invited two schools to get to 12 but...they havn't. That is very telling.
04-29-2015 10:52 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #31
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 09:37 PM)Stay Cool Wrote:  Yayyyy room in the AAC for NIU

I doubt that very much. NIU doesn't fit with any of the existing schools in that conference.

Buffalo to me seems more likely because they have the academics, NY-State market and East Coast location to go with UConn, Temple and Navy. Basketball made the NCAAs last year and is beginning to awaken.

That is how the AAC is expanding, rivalry groups/pairings. They want the conference to flow together with some logic. They want to achieve an ACC type feel to the conference membership to create the illusion of a power conference.

NIU does nothing for the AAC. It doesn't have the type of campus that can draw recruits in a higher level conference. DeKalb is not an exciting college town.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2015 11:01 PM by Kittonhead.)
04-29-2015 11:01 PM
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TodgeRodge Offline
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Post: #32
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 10:16 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  A lot of questions…

Which is easier for B12 to do?

Find schools to add that Fox and ESPN are willing to pay more to keep same payout
Or
B12 members that have option to leave for better opportunity do so.

They don’t have to make decision right now. B12 school still make 22 million a year but going forward near the end of this decade that question needs to be answer and become more urgent as the year passes.


Let look it from FOX and ESPN point of views, which is cheaper?
Move a few valuable B12 schools to their own ledgers or pay even more for over price B12 products.

Maybe Fox and ESPN can come to an agreement which schools move to which conference and leftover consolidate with other G5 schools.

JMO – a new B12 being born at half of the cost but still consider as P5 conference (auto bid to BCS).

What future is there for the B12 in the next contract cycle when all the available school that could expand their small footprint has been already taken?

Will ESPN and FOX willing to continue work together to pay B12 even more the next contract cycle to keep up with other P5 conferences?

it is only your opinion that the Big 12 is "over priced" and we know it is only your opinion because we know that ESPN came to the table several years early to renegotiate a first tier contract with the Big 12 before they had a chance to even see how the 10 team Big 12 played out

we also know this because ESPN could have tried to pair another conference with the SEC in the Sugar Bowl, but they did not and they could have tried to offer the Big 12 less than $40 million per year to play in the Sugar Bowl, but they did not.....instead they offered the Big 12 $40 million per year and then went and offered the ACC $27.5 million per year to play a 2nd to 4th place Big 10 or SEC (or ND) in the Orange Bowl

so your opinion that the Big 12 is over paid is invalidated not once, but twice by those that actually cut the checks

and also the Big 12 will continue to easily make more than the ACC and PAC 12 on a per team basis well into the future so pretending they are THE conference that will be left behind by the others is laughable

and what is "easier"......moving teams to the ACC where you have to "over pay" many more teams to try and lure the couple of teams you want or luring a couple of teams from the ACC to the SEC, a couple to the Big 10 and a couple to the Big 12.......easier and less costly to to the second one because the ACC clearly has a lot more dead weight and it would take not only boosting all of that dead weight UP TO the Big 12, but OVER the Big 12 to lure Big 12 teams.....and why do that when you do not have to

"markets" and "footprint" mean nothing when teams do not even pull that market or footprint and again we know this because we see how lesser G5 conferences are paid.....no one cared or cares about all of their "foot print planning" when adding teams and that is even factoring in just G5 type money
04-29-2015 11:08 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
From a financial standpoint, I think the Big 12 will continue to be more than fine. While it was ripe for the picking given it's limited history and being surrounded by many competitors with stronger bases, it's football/basketball strength is unlikely to make it's per team payout much different than the ACC or PAC-12 even if all the contracts were negotiated again right now. The Big Ten and SEC have significant advantages still, but they have those over everybody.
04-29-2015 11:18 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #34
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
I don't see the 12 team rule changing. The NCAA (members) don't want to see a 6 team league (or what ever the minimum is) staging a championship game.

If any one of the teams in the CFP had lost their CCG, I can see Baylor or TCU getting in. The only way I see both getting in is if all 4of the CFP teams lost their CCG.
04-30-2015 07:06 AM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #35
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
This issue and the size of the CFP go hand and hand to me. If the CFP is expanded to 8 (inevitable), Big 12 wont really care about a CCG. Chances are, their top team gets in to an 8 team playoff. If the expansion of the CFP comes with autobids for the P5 champs (+ 1 from the G5, and 2 at larges), then the CCG is a moot point, isn't it?
(This post was last modified: 04-30-2015 07:37 AM by Artifice.)
04-30-2015 07:35 AM
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Post: #36
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
I'll add another vote to the group here who says that the B1G, PAC, SEC and ACC want nothing to do with giving the XII something for nothing. Why should they help the XII get a CCG when it does nothing to benefit themselves? That's the simple, human element of politics that no one here will be able to explain away, regardless how unfair it may be.


That leaves the XII a big choice: expand to 12 or stay with 10. They've said before that they won't expand because there's no one out there that will increase their revenue per school. However, now that they've publically laid down their cards at the poker table (in saying that they want a CCG), if the 12 member rule change is denied them by the other four it could be a gut check moment for the conference.

You might have one faction (say lead by TCU and Baylor) saying that expansion, CCG and CFP are more important than money while another faction (say lead by Texas and OU) says that money is more important.


This is what's clear: the CFP won't be expanding before the 12 year contract is up. That means getting to four power conferences with each champion getting an auto-bid into the four team bracket is the goal, sooner rather than later.

If I had it my way, the B1G and PAC champions would always play in the Rose Bowl while the SEC and ACC champions would always play in the Sugar. That would obviously piss off the other four bowls, so it probably won't come to pass.


The only questions are if the XII is going to survive and where (some of) the current XII schools are going to land.

Again if I had it my way, I'd put Missouri and Iowa St in the B1G, WV in the ACC and Texas gets the same deal that Notre Dame got in the ACC, SEC takes OU, OK St and Baylor and that leaves the PAC with Tech, TCU, KS and KS St.
(This post was last modified: 04-30-2015 08:10 AM by MplsBison.)
04-30-2015 08:05 AM
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Post: #37
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-29-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:24 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  Kendrick Melville ‏@KendrickMelvill 1h1 hour ago
@McMurphyESPN I sincerely hope the NCAA denies their 10-team Conf. Championship Game request.


Brett McMurphyVerified account
‏@McMurphyESPN
@KendrickMelvill you’ll be disappointed

No he won't. Who is Kendrick Melvill anyways?

Who is anyone, really?
04-30-2015 08:08 AM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #38
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-30-2015 08:08 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:24 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  Kendrick Melville ‏@KendrickMelvill 1h1 hour ago
@McMurphyESPN I sincerely hope the NCAA denies their 10-team Conf. Championship Game request.


Brett McMurphyVerified account
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@KendrickMelvill you’ll be disappointed

No he won't. Who is Kendrick Melvill anyways?

Who is anyone, really?

An illusion.
04-30-2015 08:13 AM
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TerryD Online
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Post: #39
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
(04-30-2015 08:13 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-30-2015 08:08 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(04-29-2015 09:24 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  Kendrick Melville ‏@KendrickMelvill 1h1 hour ago
@McMurphyESPN I sincerely hope the NCAA denies their 10-team Conf. Championship Game request.


Brett McMurphyVerified account
‏@McMurphyESPN
@KendrickMelvill you’ll be disappointed

No he won't. Who is Kendrick Melvill anyways?

Who is anyone, really?

An illusion.

All "reality" is just in our minds, anyway.
04-30-2015 08:26 AM
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Big Frog II Offline
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Post: #40
RE: CBS: Big 12 will probably move toward championship
Personally, I would like the Big 12 to expand by 2 teams. I think it would make the conference stronger and solve a lot of arguments/problems. I believe our AD is in favor.
04-30-2015 08:40 AM
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