Today is the date in which Ottoman Empire leaders arrested and executed over 200 Armenian intellectuals a century ago, beginning an extermination which resulted in the death of between 800K and 1.5M people. The governments of Turkey and Azerbaijan still do not officially recognize the events as a genocide.

I think Germany officially referred to it as a genocide this year. The US still hasn't. In the end, it's just semantics for political puposes as to who calls it a genocide or who does not.

(04-24-2015 11:20 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I think Germany officially referred to it as a genocide this year. The US still hasn't. In the end, it's just semantics for political puposes as to who calls it a genocide or who does not.

Yep. Quite frankly, I think the fact they don't call it a genocide causes so much more political fallout than just admitting it ever would. I would have a problem with not admitting things like this during a presidential speech if I thought it had any effect on the overall awareness of the pubic on the issue, but in reality, it looks like it's having the Streisand Effect. Basically, it's one of those issues in which the news about someone trying to cover up a story makes the story far larger than it ever would be. Honestly, I don't know if I'd ever have heard about this genocide if not for this story.

(04-24-2015 12:29 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 11:20 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I think Germany officially referred to it as a genocide this year. The US still hasn't. In the end, it's just semantics for political puposes as to who calls it a genocide or who does not.

Yep. Quite frankly, I think the fact they don't call it a genocide causes so much more political fallout than just admitting it ever would. I would have a problem with not admitting things like this during a presidential speech if I thought it had any effect on the overall awareness of the pubic on the issue, but in reality, it looks like it's having the Streisand Effect. Basically, it's one of those issues in which the news about someone trying to cover up a story makes the story far larger than it ever would be. Honestly, I don't know if I'd ever have heard about this genocide if not for this story.

I dated a turkish girl back in college so I heard all about it. Both sides had points, but, yeah, IMO, it seems to have been genocide. Anyway, it was so long ago no it seems Turkey should just admit it and get it out of the way. Lots of more important stuff for them to worry about.

(04-24-2015 11:20 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I think Germany officially referred to it as a genocide this year. The US still hasn't. In the end, it's just semantics for political puposes as to who calls it a genocide or who does not.

May as well call it a genocide because it sounds a lot better than 'the state killed 1.5 million people because they looked funny.'

BTW, Kim K. has nominated herself as a spokewomen on this topic.

The issue is one that is really complicated.

The easiest thing to do would be to announce that it was genocide and call on Turkey to apologize for it. Especially since Turkey's BFF (Putin) went to Yerevan today. If Erdogan is going to allow his BFF to do that without consequences, then there shouldn't be any if the US does it.

That being said, neither Turkey nor Armenia have earned much political capital from the US recently. Neither have decent human rights. Both are engaged in ethnic/religious based repression (Turkey vs its' secular, and its Kurdish population - Armenia vs its Azeri and its non-orthodox population). Both have engaged in relatively recent ethnic cleansing. None of the current stuff comes close to what happened in Turkey in the 1910's, but...

Both Armenia and Turkey appear to be playing 'pay for play'. What have they done for us lately? I say give neither Armenia nor Turkey anything they want at this point. Armenia is a satellite state of Russia. Turkey has been singularly unhelpful for the last 20 years.

If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The issue is one that is really complicated.

The easiest thing to do would be to announce that it was genocide and call on Turkey to apologize for it. Especially since Turkey's BFF (Putin) went to Yerevan today. If Erdogan is going to allow his BFF to do that without consequences, then there shouldn't be any if the US does it.

That being said, neither Turkey nor Armenia have earned much political capital from the US recently. Neither have decent human rights. Both are engaged in ethnic/religious based repression (Turkey vs its' secular, and its Kurdish population - Armenia vs its Azeri and its non-orthodox population). Both have engaged in relatively recent ethnic cleansing. None of the current stuff comes close to what happened in Turkey in the 1910's, but...

Both Armenia and Turkey appear to be playing 'pay for play'. What have they done for us lately? I say give neither Armenia nor Turkey anything they want at this point. Armenia is a satellite state of Russia. Turkey has been singularly unhelpful for the last 20 years.

If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

How is an admonishment and/or acknowledgement useful for either party? It holds no political or economic utility for the US or Turkey/Armenia.

gen-o-cide: the deliberate killing of non-Christian people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

I believe as recently as 2013, it was said that Obama talked one on one with Erdogan basically more than he had talked to every other world leader in toto.

It's a relationship that was either worthless or has gone to ****, but they sure acted like BFFs.

(04-24-2015 05:48 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  gen-o-cide: the deliberate killing of non-Christian people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Oh, I'm not arguing that what happened in Turkey in the 1910's wasn't genocide.

I'm also arguing that what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh came pretty damn close to it in the 1990s. And Armenia is providing material support to Russia's takeover and ethnic cleansing of Crimea. Not in 1910...but in 2015.

And no, I'm not in the tank for Turkey either. Erdogan isn't someone who helps the USA.

----

This really isn't about genocide, but about Armenia and Turkey. And both of them hate the USA. Neither of them are working with us on anything. I don't see any point in giving either of them anything at this point. Condemn the killings. Sure. But don't give the Armenians the wording they want unless they want to play ball. And by playing ball, its something that we can pretty much all support. Basic stuff like basic human rights, non-support of ethnic cleansing, etc.

(04-24-2015 06:35 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

I believe as recently as 2013, it was said that Obama talked one on one with Erdogan basically more than he had talked to every other world leader in toto.

It's a relationship that was either worthless or has gone to ****, but they sure acted like BFFs.

Sometimes you talk to those causing problems more than you talk to those that aren't. Basically, Erdogan wants us to deport a political opponent of his (that lives in Pennsylvania) so he can torture and jail him for simply opposing Erdogan politically.

(04-24-2015 05:15 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The issue is one that is really complicated.

The easiest thing to do would be to announce that it was genocide and call on Turkey to apologize for it. Especially since Turkey's BFF (Putin) went to Yerevan today. If Erdogan is going to allow his BFF to do that without consequences, then there shouldn't be any if the US does it.

That being said, neither Turkey nor Armenia have earned much political capital from the US recently. Neither have decent human rights. Both are engaged in ethnic/religious based repression (Turkey vs its' secular, and its Kurdish population - Armenia vs its Azeri and its non-orthodox population). Both have engaged in relatively recent ethnic cleansing. None of the current stuff comes close to what happened in Turkey in the 1910's, but...

Both Armenia and Turkey appear to be playing 'pay for play'. What have they done for us lately? I say give neither Armenia nor Turkey anything they want at this point. Armenia is a satellite state of Russia. Turkey has been singularly unhelpful for the last 20 years.

If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

How is an admonishment and/or acknowledgement useful for either party? It holds no political or economic utility for the US or Turkey/Armenia.

Exactly, Armenia and Turkey are fighting over words. But since both of them p*ss all over our interests and our values, I say, condemn the killings but in a way that doesn't use the specific wording that Armenia wants. In that way, we simply say "We recognize that Turkey committed ethnic cleansing and continuing human rights abuses...but we remain concerned about Armenian support for ethnic cleansing today".

Both governments deserve the Biden treatment IMHO.

(04-24-2015 07:55 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 05:48 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  gen-o-cide: the deliberate killing of non-Christian people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Oh, I'm not arguing that what happened in Turkey in the 1910's wasn't genocide.

I'm also arguing that what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh came pretty damn close to it in the 1990s. And Armenia is providing material support to Russia's takeover and ethnic cleansing of Crimea. Not in 1910...but in 2015.

And no, I'm not in the tank for Turkey either. Erdogan isn't someone who helps the USA.

----

This really isn't about genocide, but about Armenia and Turkey. And both of them hate the USA. Neither of them are working with us on anything. I don't see any point in giving either of them anything at this point. Condemn the killings. Sure. But don't give the Armenians the wording they want unless they want to play ball. And by playing ball, its something that we can pretty much all support. Basic stuff like basic human rights, non-support of ethnic cleansing, etc.

I was just expressing frustration that genocide seems to be used loosely, but when it's applied to Christians the world lets out a collècive yawn.

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

If I'm Obama, I'd just stay the hell out of it.

(04-24-2015 03:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The issue is one that is really complicated.

The easiest thing to do would be to announce that it was genocide and call on Turkey to apologize for it. Especially since Turkey's BFF (Putin) went to Yerevan today. If Erdogan is going to allow his BFF to do that without consequences, then there shouldn't be any if the US does it.

That being said, neither Turkey nor Armenia have earned much political capital from the US recently. Neither have decent human rights. Both are engaged in ethnic/religious based repression (Turkey vs its' secular, and its Kurdish population - Armenia vs its Azeri and its non-orthodox population). Both have engaged in relatively recent ethnic cleansing. None of the current stuff comes close to what happened in Turkey in the 1910's, but...

Both Armenia and Turkey appear to be playing 'pay for play'. What have they done for us lately? I say give neither Armenia nor Turkey anything they want at this point. Armenia is a satellite state of Russia. Turkey has been singularly unhelpful for the last 20 years.

If I'm Obama, I'd condemn Turkey for not acknowledging the genocide of the 1910's, but also condemn both nations at the same time for their continuing and recent abuses of human rights, ethnic persecution/cleansing, and abuses of those living outside the dictates of the majority religious thought. Actually, I'd scratch that...I'd have Biden do it.

Of course, Obama would have to acknowledge it as a genocide himself first, which he lied about doing on the campaign trail (so did Hillary).

Quote:During Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign, he explicitly promised that “as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.” Samantha Power, author of A Problem From Hell: America and the Age of Genocide and now Obama’s ambassador to the U.N., recorded a video urging Armenian Americans to support him because he would acknowledge the genocide: “I know [Obama] very well and he’s a person of incredible integrity. … He’s a true friend of the Armenian people, an acknowledger of the history … he’s a person who can actually be trusted.”

Obama’s commitment was quietly removed from his website sometime after December 2010, and this Armenian Remembrance Day, he broke his promise for the seventh year in a row.

And Obama’s gone far beyond acts of omission. When the House Foreign Affairs Committee passed a resolution recognizing the genocide, Hillary Clinton, then secretary of state, said, “The Obama administration strongly opposes [this] and will work very hard to make sure it does not go to the House floor.” She and Obama were — with Nancy Pelosi’s assistance — successful.

Likewise, Israel has long relied on an alliance with Turkey, and has always refused to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. In 2001, the director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem stated that Shimon Peres had “entered into the range of actual denial of the Armenian Genocide, comparable to denials of the Holocaust.”

This is not hyperbole. In fact, American and Israeli denial of the Armenian Genocide often uses exactly the same language as Iranian denial of the Holocaust.

In 2006, then-Iranian president Ahmadinejad said what was needed was a “fact-finding commission” to straighten out what had actually happened to all the Jews and Roma during World War II. In 2007, Condoleezza Rice advocated “historical commissions” to determine where those Armenians had disappeared to in World War I.

When confronted directly about what he personally believed happened, Ahmadinejad declared, “I’m not a historian.” What did Abe Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, say when asked what he believed happened to Armenians? “I’m not a historian.”

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/...st-denial/