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1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
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solohawks Offline
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1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
Question for the conference historians out there.

In 1936 Wake, George Washington, Richmond, William and Mary, The Citadel, Davidson, and Furman were all added to the Socon. When the ACC was formed 1953, only Wake was taken.

My question is why was Wake chosen and were any of the other 1936 additions or other legacy members like Washington and Lee and VMI considered?
04-21-2015 09:59 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-21-2015 09:59 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Question for the conference historians out there.

In 1936 Wake, George Washington, Richmond, William and Mary, The Citadel, Davidson, and Furman were all added to the Socon. When the ACC was formed 1953, only Wake was taken.

My question is why was Wake chosen and were any of the other 1936 additions or other legacy members like Washington and Lee and VMI considered?

The league was destabilized by adding WVA in 1951. That changed the balance of league power in the 17 team league and the small schools could outvote the large - leading to the bowl ban. WVa supported the VT president who was the defector commissioner on that point, leading to MD, Duke, and Clemson deciding to leave.

At the time WF was located in WF NC - 20 miles from Duke and 15 miles from NC State. WF had a larger football stadium than NC State. What NC State had was the largest basketball facility in the South.

MD and Duke got together first, then pulled in Clemson who pulled in SC. That was enough to be a core. MD wanted UVa back in the group (they left in 1936) because they needed UVa votes to keep VT out. Duke approached UNC and NC State and UNC and NC State said they wanted to bring WF along. That's who WF came along. UVa was adamant about not allowing other Va schools into the ACC with them - so there went W&M, W&L, VMI, Richmond etc., Clemson and SC saw no need for the Citadel and Furman.

At the time the SoCon and ACC had an Orange Bowl tie in and didn't need schools like W&M and WVa potentially taking that bid. WVa had had a really good year in 51 IIRC, and W&M had started massively cheating to get to Gator Bowl which touched off the crisis in the State of Va, which led to VT attempting to stop bowls.

None of the class of 36 beyond WF got a vote.

UNC motioned to add VT in 54 and it failed 4-4. They then motioned to add WVa, and could not get a second. The original idea as I have been told was to have 10 schools and UNC, NC State, Duke, and WF thought VT would have the votes to be 9th. Who would have been the 10th - who knows, but when UNC could not get VT, the league became comfortable at 8, then SC left over the problems between then and UNC, MD, and NC State and Frank McGuire.

Of the class of 36, only Richmond, W&M, could have competed. Davidson had been a member since the 20's, but was not willing to compete in football without the smaller members - they stood to be killed by 6-7 games against Clemson, SC, UNC, Duke, WF, MD, etc.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2015 10:26 PM by lumberpack4.)
04-21-2015 10:14 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
Thanks lumberpack. Was hoping this would get your attention. I knew Wake and UNC always had close ties and figured that had a lot to do with it. I always wondered why Davidson was never included in the ACC. They seemed to be on good relations with the NC 4, playing Duke and UNC on a regular basis to this day. Their program has always been competive and they would have given the ACC a Charlotte team, which isnt a big deal today, but back in the formative years seemed like a big gap.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2015 10:37 PM by solohawks.)
04-21-2015 10:36 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-21-2015 10:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Thanks lumberpack. Was hoping this would get your attention. I knew Wake and UNC always had close ties and figured that had a lot to do with it. I always wondered why Davidson was never included in the ACC. They seemed to be on good relations with the NC 4, playing Duke and UNC on a regular basis to this day. Their program has always been competive and they would have given the ACC a Charlotte team, which isnt a big deal today, but back in the formative years seemed like a big gap.

The Belk's and the Camerons did not have enough money to move Davidson to Charlotte, like Duke's had to move Trinity and the Reynolds had to move WF to WS. Had that move happened, Davidson would be in the ACC today.

GW and Georgetown both deemphasized football after WWII and MD would have blocked them.

For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

The cheating scandal at W&M is the reason that ODU now has division one football as ODU was W&M satellite university for a number of years and the specter of that is why W&M has never tried to come back up to that level.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2015 10:43 PM by lumberpack4.)
04-21-2015 10:40 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Thanks lumberpack. Was hoping this would get your attention. I knew Wake and UNC always had close ties and figured that had a lot to do with it. I always wondered why Davidson was never included in the ACC. They seemed to be on good relations with the NC 4, playing Duke and UNC on a regular basis to this day. Their program has always been competive and they would have given the ACC a Charlotte team, which isnt a big deal today, but back in the formative years seemed like a big gap.

The Belk's and the Camerons did not have enough money to move Davidson to Charlotte, like Duke's had to move Trinity and the Reynolds had to move WF to WS. Had that move happened, Davidson would be in the ACC today.

GW and Georgetown both deemphasized football after WWII and MD would have blocked them.

For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

I can undertand PSU, disagree completley with the logic but I understand it, but what was MD's problem with Florida. Seemed like the nothern most school in the conference would appreciate a game in Florida
04-21-2015 10:44 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-21-2015 10:44 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Thanks lumberpack. Was hoping this would get your attention. I knew Wake and UNC always had close ties and figured that had a lot to do with it. I always wondered why Davidson was never included in the ACC. They seemed to be on good relations with the NC 4, playing Duke and UNC on a regular basis to this day. Their program has always been competive and they would have given the ACC a Charlotte team, which isnt a big deal today, but back in the formative years seemed like a big gap.

The Belk's and the Camerons did not have enough money to move Davidson to Charlotte, like Duke's had to move Trinity and the Reynolds had to move WF to WS. Had that move happened, Davidson would be in the ACC today.

GW and Georgetown both deemphasized football after WWII and MD would have blocked them.

For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

I can undertand PSU, disagree completley with the logic but I understand it, but what was MD's problem with Florida. Seemed like the nothern most school in the conference would appreciate a game in Florida

Difficult as it is to fathom now, MD felt they formed the ACC and that it should look like what they wanted. They did take the lead in 1952 to kick the small fry to the curb. When you are talking about decision and thought process in the late 60's and early 70's, the folks making those decisions all have the 1950's fresh in their minds. MD didn't want the in-conference competition.
04-22-2015 10:14 AM
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Post: #7
RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

In the annuls of expansionist history, that revelation alone stands out as the dumbest, craziest stonewall move by any school.

If we had both Penn State and Florida in the league... just typing that sentence has me all like this now:

[Image: florida-evans-damn.gif]

Muck Ferryland.

(with all due respect to Mr. AtlanticLeague -- I like him)
04-22-2015 01:45 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
Was the ga tech adaddition unanimous or did someone put up a fight? Also who was the biggest opponent of a south carolina readmission
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2015 02:58 PM by solohawks.)
04-22-2015 02:56 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 01:45 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

In the annuls of expansionist history, that revelation alone stands out as the dumbest, craziest stonewall move by any school.

If we had both Penn State and Florida in the league... just typing that sentence has me all like this now:

[Image: florida-evans-damn.gif]

Muck Ferryland.

(with all due respect to Mr. AtlanticLeague -- I like him)

I am not saying we "Had" Florida, but UF was interested in the early 70's because their football was in the dumpster and they had athletic scandal and they were not getting along well with other SEC schools. MD's mindset at the time was that they were the center of the universe because DC dwarfed other ACC population centers.

With regard to PSU, now we are in the 80's, and MD did not want the football competition pure and simple. It would have been easy to cajole UNC and Clemson into feeling the same way. A person needed knowledge of the future to know that getting PSU would be so important to the league, even then, if we land PSU, we do not get FSU.

There is no way to get both. As the first move tips the other. You would have had to get both at the same time in 1988 or 89. In 89 GT won have the national title, UVa was ranked number 1 for several weeks until they choked. Give the success of UVA and GT, why would Clemson or UNC see the need to vote to add PSU and FSU until the B10 made their move.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2015 03:46 PM by lumberpack4.)
04-22-2015 03:45 PM
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XLance Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 02:56 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Was the ga tech adaddition unanimous or did someone put up a fight? Also who was the biggest opponent of a south carolina readmission

re: south Carolina readmission.....Maryland and Dook.
04-22-2015 04:47 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 04:47 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(04-22-2015 02:56 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Was the ga tech adaddition unanimous or did someone put up a fight? Also who was the biggest opponent of a south carolina readmission

re: south Carolina readmission.....Maryland and Dook.

Add South Carolina to that list.
04-22-2015 05:03 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
IIRC, they had to play a basketball game in an empty arena between MD and SC because SC was so dirty.
04-22-2015 06:09 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 03:45 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(04-22-2015 01:45 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

In the annuls of expansionist history, that revelation alone stands out as the dumbest, craziest stonewall move by any school.

If we had both Penn State and Florida in the league... just typing that sentence has me all like this now:

[Image: florida-evans-damn.gif]

Muck Ferryland.

(with all due respect to Mr. AtlanticLeague -- I like him)

I am not saying we "Had" Florida, but UF was interested in the early 70's because their football was in the dumpster and they had athletic scandal and they were not getting along well with other SEC schools. MD's mindset at the time was that they were the center of the universe because DC dwarfed other ACC population centers.

With regard to PSU, now we are in the 80's, and MD did not want the football competition pure and simple. It would have been easy to cajole UNC and Clemson into feeling the same way. A person needed knowledge of the future to know that getting PSU would be so important to the league, even then, if we land PSU, we do not get FSU.

There is no way to get both. As the first move tips the other. You would have had to get both at the same time in 1988 or 89. In 89 GT won have the national title, UVa was ranked number 1 for several weeks until they choked. Give the success of UVA and GT, why would Clemson or UNC see the need to vote to add PSU and FSU until the B10 made their move.

That has to be news to Miami.

And, well, everybody else.
04-22-2015 06:32 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
It's easy to look back at past scenarios and extrapolate potential based upon what the school is now and think about the missed opportunities but you can't just assume that the development of the Florida program would have followed the same path. Do they expand Ben Hill Griffin beyond the 63k seats they had in the 1970's in the ACC since that is around the conference average or did they expand to keep up with their peers in the SEC? Do they make the overall investments in football that they have to compete in a conference that from the mid 1970's was Clemson and the six dwarves, or do they follow the rest of the conference and concentrate their efforts strictly towards basketball?
04-22-2015 06:47 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 06:32 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(04-22-2015 03:45 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(04-22-2015 01:45 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  
(04-21-2015 10:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  For years MD blocked PSU and Florida. Both were interested but in a 7 team league all MD needed was one more vote to keep anyone out.

In the annuls of expansionist history, that revelation alone stands out as the dumbest, craziest stonewall move by any school.

If we had both Penn State and Florida in the league... just typing that sentence has me all like this now:

[Image: florida-evans-damn.gif]

Muck Ferryland.

(with all due respect to Mr. AtlanticLeague -- I like him)

I am not saying we "Had" Florida, but UF was interested in the early 70's because their football was in the dumpster and they had athletic scandal and they were not getting along well with other SEC schools. MD's mindset at the time was that they were the center of the universe because DC dwarfed other ACC population centers.

With regard to PSU, now we are in the 80's, and MD did not want the football competition pure and simple. It would have been easy to cajole UNC and Clemson into feeling the same way. A person needed knowledge of the future to know that getting PSU would be so important to the league, even then, if we land PSU, we do not get FSU.

There is no way to get both. As the first move tips the other. You would have had to get both at the same time in 1988 or 89. In 89 GT won have the national title, UVa was ranked number 1 for several weeks until they choked. Give the success of UVA and GT, why would Clemson or UNC see the need to vote to add PSU and FSU until the B10 made their move.

That has to be news to Miami.

And, well, everybody else.

Thank you for reminding us that it was 1990 instead of 1989. That's a very important distinction.
04-22-2015 09:36 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
(04-22-2015 06:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  It's easy to look back at past scenarios and extrapolate potential based upon what the school is now and think about the missed opportunities but you can't just assume that the development of the Florida program would have followed the same path. Do they expand Ben Hill Griffin beyond the 63k seats they had in the 1970's in the ACC since that is around the conference average or did they expand to keep up with their peers in the SEC? Do they make the overall investments in football that they have to compete in a conference that from the mid 1970's was Clemson and the six dwarves, or do they follow the rest of the conference and concentrate their efforts strictly towards basketball?

Revisionist history much?

ACC Top 3 Finish Years 1975-1994

75 - MD, Duke, NCSU
76 - MD, UNC, WF
77 - UNC, CU, NCSU
78 - CU, MD, NCSU
79 - NCSU, CU, MD
80 - UNC, MD, NCSU
81 - CU, UNC, MD
82 - CU, MD, UNC
83 - MD, UNC, GT (CU on probation)
84 - MD, CU, GT
85 - MD, GT, UVA
86 - CU, NCSU, UNC
87 - CU, UVa, WF
88 - CU, UVa, NCSU
89 - UVa, Duke, CU
90 - GT, CU, UVa
91 - CU, NCSU, GT
92 - FSU, NCSU, UNC
93 - FSU, UNC, CU
94 - FSU, NCSU, UVa

For the decade from 75-85 (you noted from the mid-70's) MD had more top three appearances than Clemson - 10 vs. 6. MD had 5 ACC Titles, Clemson had 4 in that first decade after 75. Was MD a dwarf?

In the two decades from 75, Clemson had 7 ACC titles, MD had 5, NC State, UNC, GT, and UVa/Duke had one each.

Clemson has a good football history, but there is no need to falsely embellish it. 04-cheers
04-22-2015 10:07 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
From 1975 until FSU joined the ACC in 1992 Clemson was 81-27-3 against ACC competition, including undefeated seasons in 1978, 1981, 1982, 1983, and 1991*


(* Tie with UVA)

You can quote the "Top 3" all you want, but when you win 75% of your games it pretty much means that you are dominating your opponents.
04-22-2015 10:54 PM
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RE: 1936 SoCon Additions & the ACC
In terms of PSU-Maryland, it was an annual game between 1960 and 1993. During that time, PSU's record in the series was 29-1-1, with the lone loss coming in 1961.

Strangely enough, Maryland also essentially had an annual series with Syracuse from 1965 to the late 1980s. West Virginia came back on the schedule in the 60's and 70s (4 games each decade) with an annual game starting in 1980 until 2007.
04-23-2015 08:17 AM
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