(04-17-2015 01:47 AM)Policiious Wrote:  North Dakota, Nebraska Omaha, Denver U & Colorado College have also shown how hockey can positively affect an athletic department's income. Omaha dropped football when it moved from D2 to D1AAA. North Dakota benefits from a generous alumni base and the Grand Forks and North Dakota tax payers who have invested in the university's athletic facilities.

There are at least 130 D1A football programs along with about that many FCS programs. College Hockey will reach 60 with ASU starting it's program next year. College football is oversaturated with talent streched to fill the thousands of scholarships available. College Hockey has only about 1600 scholarships to fill and with more Europeans playing US College Hockey along with Americans and Canadians the quality of play is rising.

The Non P5 programs that have both Hockey and Football would be wise to see what investing in Hockey and disinvesting in football could do for them

Hopefully they carefully study the decision instead of just saying "hey, let's try this and see if it works!"

Omaha had to drop football to move to DI because Nebraska wouldn't let another DI football team exist in the state.

UND was DII and moved up to DI, making a huge increase in their football investment.

CC is DIII. Denver either never had football or dropped it a long time ago.

(04-17-2015 09:17 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 01:47 AM)Policiious Wrote:  North Dakota, Nebraska Omaha, Denver U & Colorado College have also shown how hockey can positively affect an athletic department's income. Omaha dropped football when it moved from D2 to D1AAA. North Dakota benefits from a generous alumni base and the Grand Forks and North Dakota tax payers who have invested in the university's athletic facilities.

There are at least 130 D1A football programs along with about that many FCS programs. College Hockey will reach 60 with ASU starting it's program next year. College football is oversaturated with talent streched to fill the thousands of scholarships available. College Hockey has only about 1600 scholarships to fill and with more Europeans playing US College Hockey along with Americans and Canadians the quality of play is rising.

The Non P5 programs that have both Hockey and Football would be wise to see what investing in Hockey and disinvesting in football could do for them

Hopefully they carefully study the decision instead of just saying "hey, let's try this and see if it works!"

Omaha had to drop football to move to DI because Nebraska wouldn't let another DI football team exist in the state.

UND was DII and moved up to DI, making a huge increase in their football investment.

CC is DIII. Denver either never had football or dropped it a long time ago.

There has been talk of hockey for years at URI. Football has been noncompetitive on the field and financially for years too. To increase revenue, URI has to upgrade football or start hockey, and they already have a campus rink. A no-brainer if a hockey conference has an opening.

Omaha did not drop football because the state said so, but rather because they could not afford it and the MVFC would not let them in. Hockey is their flagship sport now, as witnessed by their own 8k rink opening this fall. It gives UNO a separate identity from Creighton and the Huskers.

UND will soon open a 300m track and indoor practice facility, which was funded by donors. We have 21 sports, which is remarkable for a relatively new DI school, which are largely funded by hockey revenues.

(04-17-2015 09:14 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-16-2015 05:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I don't think it's that dire. CAAF may see them depart, but they will have options running a lean program. I still think CAAF might collapse, and wonder if AE could reapproach football sponsorship if it came to that, or some other configuration to emerge.

If CAAF does collapse and AE picks up the sponsorship (meaning the Yankee would've gone from the A10, to the CAA and then to the AE), I hope they deny Delaware membership.

That would be called "getting the knife you used to backstab someone stabbed into your own back."

The one who really screwed AE and set them back don't even play the sport of football anymore and are taking up space in the Patriot. Boston really mucked that place up...there's hope and optimism that AE could recover if it can keep certain programs from walking away (the SUNYs).

I don't know what the future holds for northeastern football programs at the FCS level, but it is loaded with intrigue. I mean, other than just CAA politics (JMU possibly leaving, geographical positioning, the spat between Hofstra and members who want Stony Brook, and the Patriot trying to lure William & Mary and other CAAF programs), you have programs looking to outgrow the confines of NEC (like Monmouth), programs like CCSU who just want to be in the AE, while programs like URI are trying to stay visible. You even get schools like Wagner, who somehow find a way to meet the qualifications and play FBS games. So, whatever happens...there could be multiple options for some of these programs where now, if you aren't good enough for CAAF or elite enough a school for the Patriot, you're either under tight restrictions in the NEC, or playing in the Big South, where you can have a bigger program.

As for Villanova...their football coach, a class act guy all the way, finally gave a range for how long he planned to stay at the school (2-3 years). I doubt the school even tries to find someone of his caliber after he leaves, and I wouldn't put it past the school to use his retirement as a means to "reassess" the program, which, to me, feels like they'll figure out a way to be more Georgetown-like, and scale it down while getting the academic draft from the Patriot affiliation (where they can still play Penn, a very local/regional schedule, and play a FBS team). It really is a shame. If this was television programming, what Villanova is doing to its football program is blunting it...purposefully not letting it succeed at the level it really could. They look smart today for not taking the upgrade back in 2009-10, but that's not saying much given they helped nuke the Big East to begin with.

(04-17-2015 01:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:  There has been talk of hockey for years at URI. Football has been noncompetitive on the field and financially for years too. To increase revenue, URI has to upgrade football or start hockey, and they already have a campus rink. A no-brainer if a hockey conference has an opening.

Omaha did not drop football because the state said so, but rather because they could not afford it and the MVFC would not let them in. Hockey is their flagship sport now, as witnessed by their own 8k rink opening this fall. It gives UNO a separate identity from Creighton and the Huskers.

UND will soon open a 300m track and indoor practice facility, which was funded by donors. We have 21 sports, which is remarkable for a relatively new DI school, which are largely funded by hockey revenues.

Why does RI need to increase revenue? They're not a business. Growth is not the end all, be all.

That said, I hope they start (ice) hockey and have success in it. It's a great sport. I'm just lamenting what will inexorably be the loss of money for football, in order to fund hockey. That would never happen if RI had success in football. Maine and New Hampshire would never loot the football budget to support hockey, for example. But RI clearly has not had success for some time, so there won't be many football supporters to complain.


I did not know Omaha was building another new hockey arena, on campus. Because Ralston is very obviously a hockey arena where they cover the ice and lay a court down to play bball. And obviously CenturyLink arena was just fine. Yep, makes sense. Will they retrofit Ralston for optimal basketball seating, then? I'm guessing not.

If the MVFC had let UNO in or if the NCC had moved up together (as they should've done), I can guarantee Nebraska would've had something to say about it. Maybe they couldn't have shut it down, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.


UND, New Hampshire and Maine prove that public schools are more than capable of having DI hockey and FCS football.

(04-17-2015 02:25 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The one who really screwed AE and set them back don't even play the sport of football anymore and are taking up space in the Patriot. Boston really mucked that place up...there's hope and optimism that AE could recover if it can keep certain programs from walking away (the SUNYs).

I don't know what the future holds for northeastern football programs at the FCS level, but it is loaded with intrigue. I mean, other than just CAA politics (JMU possibly leaving, geographical positioning, the spat between Hofstra and members who want Stony Brook, and the Patriot trying to lure William & Mary and other CAAF programs), you have programs looking to outgrow the confines of NEC (like Monmouth), programs like CCSU who just want to be in the AE, while programs like URI are trying to stay visible. You even get schools like Wagner, who somehow find a way to meet the qualifications and play FBS games. So, whatever happens...there could be multiple options for some of these programs where now, if you aren't good enough for CAAF or elite enough a school for the Patriot, you're either under tight restrictions in the NEC, or playing in the Big South, where you can have a bigger program.

As for Villanova...their football coach, a class act guy all the way, finally gave a range for how long he planned to stay at the school (2-3 years). I doubt the school even tries to find someone of his caliber after he leaves, and I wouldn't put it past the school to use his retirement as a means to "reassess" the program, which, to me, feels like they'll figure out a way to be more Georgetown-like, and scale it down while getting the academic draft from the Patriot affiliation (where they can still play Penn, a very local/regional schedule, and play a FBS team). It really is a shame. If this was television programming, what Villanova is doing to its football program is blunting it...purposefully not letting it succeed at the level it really could. They look smart today for not taking the upgrade back in 2009-10, but that's not saying much given they helped nuke the Big East to begin with.

AE basketball and CAA basketball are both one-bid leagues. At this point, the only reason for SB (and Albany) to want the CAA is for the "appearance" of being in one league for all sports, even though the CAAF is completely separate.

So if the AE takes over the football sponsorship, then there would really be no reason to leave.


Thing about the Patriot is that they finally decided to allow athletic-merit grants (athletic scholarships) for financial aid, rather than going with the Ivy League need-based aid only approach.

I don't think Georgetown is going to be kicked out, but they refuse to add scholarships or spend much money on football. They're not competitive in the Patriot. If that's what Villanova wants to do (be like Georgetown), I don't think the Patriot will add them.

(04-17-2015 02:27 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 01:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:  There has been talk of hockey for years at URI. Football has been noncompetitive on the field and financially for years too. To increase revenue, URI has to upgrade football or start hockey, and they already have a campus rink. A no-brainer if a hockey conference has an opening.

Omaha did not drop football because the state said so, but rather because they could not afford it and the MVFC would not let them in. Hockey is their flagship sport now, as witnessed by their own 8k rink opening this fall. It gives UNO a separate identity from Creighton and the Huskers.

UND will soon open a 300m track and indoor practice facility, which was funded by donors. We have 21 sports, which is remarkable for a relatively new DI school, which are largely funded by hockey revenues.

Why does RI need to increase revenue? They're not a business. Growth is not the end all, be all.

That said, I hope they start (ice) hockey and have success in it. It's a great sport. I'm just lamenting what will inexorably be the loss of money for football, in order to fund hockey. That would never happen if RI had success in football. Maine and New Hampshire would never loot the football budget to support hockey, for example. But RI clearly has not had success for some time, so there won't be many football supporters to complain.


I did not know Omaha was building another new hockey arena, on campus. Because Ralston is very obviously a hockey arena where they cover the ice and lay a court down to play bball. And obviously CenturyLink arena was just fine. Yep, makes sense. Will they retrofit Ralston for optimal basketball seating, then? I'm guessing not.

If the MVFC had let UNO in or if the NCC had moved up together (as they should've done), I can guarantee Nebraska would've had something to say about it. Maybe they couldn't have shut it down, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.


UND, New Hampshire and Maine prove that public schools are more than capable of having DI hockey and FCS football.

If a school doesn't increase athletic revenue while at the same time controlling costs, it will disband athletics. Not everyone is a Harvard or Stanford with seemingly unlimited endowments.

Creighton probably didn't want Omaha's football in the MVFC, as the MVC controls the MVFC. The Summit also demanded they add men's soccer to satisfy its needs for MBB, MSoc, and Baseball, so Omaha had to add men's soccer and drop wrestling and much more expensive FCS football.

Omaha didn't own the Ralston arena, it wasn't on or near campus, and now Omaha can control suite revenue. CenturyLink was just so big, that season tickets were unnecessary.

Maine and UNH will probably go bigger to protect and sustain football, but both of those schools get a lot better return from hockey.

(04-17-2015 02:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If a school doesn't increase athletic revenue while at the same time controlling costs, it will disband athletics. Not everyone is a Harvard or Stanford with seemingly unlimited endowments.

Creighton probably didn't want Omaha's football in the MVFC, as the MVC controls the MVFC. The Summit also demanded they add men's soccer to satisfy its needs for MBB, MSoc, and Baseball, so Omaha had to add men's soccer and drop wrestling and much more expensive FCS football.

Omaha didn't own the Ralston arena, it wasn't on or near campus, and now Omaha can control suite revenue. CenturyLink was just so big, that season tickets were unnecessary.

Maine and UNH will probably go bigger to protect and sustain football, but both of those schools get a lot better return from hockey.

Your first sentence is absurd. If a school continues to bring in the same revenue that it has been bringing in, while controlling costs - then they've succeeded. No need to grow revenue.


We can argue all day, but there's no proof of what might have been. I say that if they had an opportunity to join the MVFC and still got rid of football, it would've been because of Nebraska and not because of money.

Didn't know that about Ralston. Thanks for correcting me. I understand now and glad to hear that.


UNH and Maine might pull more total "profit" from hockey than they do football, but very few schools will be able to say that. A new college hockey won't draw well automatically. They'll have to build it up. It'll take time and consistent success, like anything.

My Wikipedia research didn't help, is the Ryan Center a duel basketball/hockey facility, or would URI need a new hockey facility?

(04-17-2015 02:57 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 02:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If a school doesn't increase athletic revenue while at the same time controlling costs, it will disband athletics. Not everyone is a Harvard or Stanford with seemingly unlimited endowments.

Creighton probably didn't want Omaha's football in the MVFC, as the MVC controls the MVFC. The Summit also demanded they add men's soccer to satisfy its needs for MBB, MSoc, and Baseball, so Omaha had to add men's soccer and drop wrestling and much more expensive FCS football.

Omaha didn't own the Ralston arena, it wasn't on or near campus, and now Omaha can control suite revenue. CenturyLink was just so big, that season tickets were unnecessary.

Maine and UNH will probably go bigger to protect and sustain football, but both of those schools get a lot better return from hockey.

Your first sentence is absurd. If a school continues to bring in the same revenue that it has been bringing in, while controlling costs - then they've succeeded. No need to grow revenue.


We can argue all day, but there's no proof of what might have been. I say that if they had an opportunity to join the MVFC and still got rid of football, it would've been because of Nebraska and not because of money.

Didn't know that about Ralston. Thanks for correcting me. I understand now and glad to hear that.


UNH and Maine might pull more total "profit" from hockey than they do football, but very few schools will be able to say that. A new college hockey won't draw well automatically. They'll have to build it up. It'll take time and consistent success, like anything.

Athletic departments don't control tuition or FCOA, which is much greater than inflation. Your statement about not needing to raise revenue shows ignorance to put it politely.

(04-17-2015 05:16 PM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  My Wikipedia research didn't help, is the Ryan Center a duel basketball/hockey facility, or would URI need a new hockey facility?

Brad Boss Arena, which is on campus, seats 2500 and operates year round for skating and hockey. The club teams play there and it is good enough for the AHA, which has mostly small rinks.

I wasn't aware Ryan Center could host hockey, but don't think so. The footprint looks awfully small. But if so, the Boss rink could host lesser games and practice.

Omaha also had significant issues with Title IX that would have required them to add more than twice the 27 extra scholarships going from Division II to FCS, even with dropping wrestling, which was also done at the same time. Omaha would have likely had to add multiple women's sports just to keep from losing ground on compliance, much less move towards it. At the time, there weren't many schools near them competing in women's lacrosse, field hockey, or rowing, and there still aren't that many now.

Keep in mind South Dakota spurning the Big Sky for the Summit and MVFC also played a role in Omaha's decision - there was no opening for their football team.

With URI:

Meade Stadium is for football, from the 1930's. It seats around 10k I'd guess, maybe 2k chairbacks and the rest bleachers.

The Ryan Center is for basketball. Can't do hockey. It was built around 10-15 years ago, and was built up against the west granstand of Meade. So, football fans have direct access to the Ryan Center concourse. The Ryan seats around 7k, all chairbacks.

Connected to the Ryan on the south is old Keaney Gym. Former home of hoops, and now home to volleyball. Named after Frank Keaney, Rhody's coach in the 40's, who is credited with popularizing the fast break. Rhody's colors are "Keaney blue" and white.

So Meade, the Ryan and Keaney are connected.

South across the parking lot is the Boss Ice Arena, near Route-138, built around 10 years ago. All bleachers, capacity around 2000. Home of URI hockey, as well as local high school hockey. Very bare-bones rink, but it's fine.

Baseball has a nice field west of Keaney (north of Boss). Bleachers only.
Soccer is west of the Ryan. Bleachers only.

Nice campus with a lot of space. 5 minutes to the beach. 10 minutes to Newport.

This is a postgame locker room photo of some of URI's hockey opponents:
Old-time hockey... Eddie Shore...

(04-17-2015 07:39 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Athletic departments don't control tuition or FCOA, which is much greater than inflation. Your statement about not needing to raise revenue shows ignorance to put it politely.

Your statement that athletic departments must always be growing their revenue or else they'll have to shut down is beyond ignorant. I'd say it's blatantly misleading.

As I said, if an AD continues to bring in roughly the same amount of revenue that they had been bringing in, with the same costs, then they've succeeded. There was no need to grow revenue.

There's a word for the concept of "growth for the sake of growth." It's called cancer.

(04-17-2015 08:18 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Omaha also had significant issues with Title IX that would have required them to add more than twice the 27 extra scholarships going from Division II to FCS, even with dropping wrestling, which was also done at the same time. Omaha would have likely had to add multiple women's sports just to keep from losing ground on compliance, much less move towards it. At the time, there weren't many schools near them competing in women's lacrosse, field hockey, or rowing, and there still aren't that many now.

Keep in mind South Dakota spurning the Big Sky for the Summit and MVFC also played a role in Omaha's decision - there was no opening for their football team.

Well, first of all, title IX has nothing to do with financial aid. It has only to do with participation.

But anyway, your points are fine.


My point was only that if Omaha had been all good and clear to add football, including a conference to go into, then they still would've had to deal with Nebraska on top of that.

(04-17-2015 02:32 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  AE basketball and CAA basketball are both one-bid leagues. At this point, the only reason for SB (and Albany) to want the CAA is for the "appearance" of being in one league for all sports, even though the CAAF is completely separate.

So if the AE takes over the football sponsorship, then there would really be no reason to leave.


Thing about the Patriot is that they finally decided to allow athletic-merit grants (athletic scholarships) for financial aid, rather than going with the Ivy League need-based aid only approach.

I don't think Georgetown is going to be kicked out, but they refuse to add scholarships or spend much money on football. They're not competitive in the Patriot. If that's what Villanova wants to do (be like Georgetown), I don't think the Patriot will add them.

No disagreement here about both conferences being one-bid leagues now, but CAA is still considered the better, bigger, more comprehensive conference, as well as more prestigious (even though AE has a more cohesive look of mostly public flagship institutions). The perception game is tough, though...CAA doesn't look strong now, but had the A10 been gutted some years back, that conference thought it had a good shot at a lot of desirable members "left behind." CAA could have had a chance to actually improve even more than when it peaked.

I should have clarified that when I said about VU football following G-town, it was just overall trimming: cutting some scholarships, staff, and salaries. The venue's never going to improve (the township housing Villanova will see to that), so it won't be like Villanova will feel the need to pump money into facilities for upkeep (it's starting construction on a practice facility, which may be one of the last things that program sees). Villanova could still be very competitive in the Patriot and maybe FCS if even running on a leaner frame.

Part of me feels that if the Patriot budged on AI, CAAF would be dead already, or nearly there. Patriot wants all of W&M, and VU's, Richmond's, and UNH's football...given what the Patriot is doing to remain viable and visible in FCS, school presidents are going to run for that conference if given just enough incentive, if it means the competitive level of their programs takes a shot.

As for URI...if they are to keep football, I think they'll find their options and outlook favorable if they can just endure the next five or so years. Ice hockey needn't be that robust for them, as they already sit in the right region for it to keep talent who might not want to wander far from it. And ice hockey could be that new revenue generating sport schools have been looking for, rather than the mirage successful football projects.

(04-18-2015 09:14 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 07:39 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Athletic departments don't control tuition or FCOA, which is much greater than inflation. Your statement about not needing to raise revenue shows ignorance to put it politely.

Your statement that athletic departments must always be growing their revenue or else they'll have to shut down is beyond ignorant. I'd say it's blatantly misleading.

As I said, if an AD continues to bring in roughly the same amount of revenue that they had been bringing in, with the same costs, then they've succeeded. There was no need to grow revenue.

There's a word for the concept of "growth for the sake of growth." It's called cancer.

Hope you realize that you're going against everything NDSU stands for. Their charging $60 a seat for the first NDSU-UND game in over a decade. When the last game was played, UND charged $27.50 a ticket, and NDSU fans and Fargo papers said that was obscene, gouging the public, and they weren't going to stand for it.

So if NDSU wants to increase revenue, you're all for it, but anyone else is gouging the public. You seem be advocating everyone to go DIII, except NDSU.

(04-18-2015 10:19 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  No disagreement here about both conferences being one-bid leagues now, but CAA is still considered the better, bigger, more comprehensive conference, as well as more prestigious (even though AE has a more cohesive look of mostly public flagship institutions). The perception game is tough, though...CAA doesn't look strong now, but had the A10 been gutted some years back, that conference thought it had a good shot at a lot of desirable members "left behind." CAA could have had a chance to actually improve even more than when it peaked.

I should have clarified that when I said about VU football following G-town, it was just overall trimming: cutting some scholarships, staff, and salaries. The venue's never going to improve (the township housing Villanova will see to that), so it won't be like Villanova will feel the need to pump money into facilities for upkeep (it's starting construction on a practice facility, which may be one of the last things that program sees). Villanova could still be very competitive in the Patriot and maybe FCS if even running on a leaner frame.

Part of me feels that if the Patriot budged on AI, CAAF would be dead already, or nearly there. Patriot wants all of W&M, and VU's, Richmond's, and UNH's football...given what the Patriot is doing to remain viable and visible in FCS, school presidents are going to run for that conference if given just enough incentive, if it means the competitive level of their programs takes a shot.

As for URI...if they are to keep football, I think they'll find their options and outlook favorable if they can just endure the next five or so years. Ice hockey needn't be that robust for them, as they already sit in the right region for it to keep talent who might not want to wander far from it. And ice hockey could be that new revenue generating sport schools have been looking for, rather than the mirage successful football projects.

I came from the national FCS football message board (AGS), so I have lots of experience with both CAA and Patriot fan posters. I know how highly the CAA holds its nose. None more than Delaware, after backstabbing the AE. You (and they) can pretend that they're more highly perceived. But the facts are the facts. The CAA is no better than any other one-bid conference in the east. Not anymore.

There has always been a lot of talk about W&M to the Patriot, on that board. The W&M fans want no part of it unless the Patriot completely gets rid of the AI (something I argued for, for a long time). Some Patriot folks are with that while others still defend need-based aid only. So given that, I don't see W&M joining the Patriot any time soon. Not to mention that W&M are founders of the CAA, along with JMU and Towson. So many W&M fans also feel loyal to the CAA.


I don't think VU could cut its football budget enough to both make it look appealing to anti-football admin and stay competitive enough to warrant invitation. Travel to Patriot teams would be a little better than to CAAF teams. But their rivalry with Delaware might be in jeopardy if the moved.


As I've said, I hope URI hockey succeeds. I just don't want them to kill football to fund hockey.

(04-18-2015 02:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Hope you realize that you're going against everything NDSU stands for. Their charging $60 a seat for the first NDSU-UND game in over a decade. When the last game was played, UND charged $27.50 a ticket, and NDSU fans and Fargo papers said that was obscene, gouging the public, and they weren't going to stand for it.

So if NDSU wants to increase revenue, you're all for it, but anyone else is gouging the public. You seem be advocating everyone to go DIII, except NDSU.

You said that an AD must increase revenue, otherwise it will shut down. That was and still is a ridiculous, absurd statement.

If you want to recant that statement, then we can talk about other topics like NDSU.

I'm wondering if Trev Alberts being UNO's athletic director played a role in them dropping football. More so than for anyone else who could've been the AD, because supposedly he wants to groom himself for the job in Lincoln.