Mad bro? I know jmu paid $200,000 last year to get spanked by Liberty, but let it go.

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(04-14-2015 11:56 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:53 AM)NCeagle Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:01 AM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 10:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 10:33 AM)eagle9098 Wrote:  Dont know who your referring to but thats been my argument, although I havent been in this discussion much.

To answer the question about recruiting..........I dont doubt that Liberty can get players good enough to be competitive in FCS, and I dont doubt that Liberty has signed some quality players in the past. My concern would be that Liberty is a school that many of the football players that are FBS caliber just wont want to go to a Religious private type of school. You will find some. Like Furman, they have to recruit a certain kind of kid that in Furmans case is academic enough and wants to go for academic purposes much of the time. Furman does a good job getting those guys but probably would have a hard time doing it at the FBS level. Liberty will have to find players that want to come to their school for reasons, much of the time, because of their christian belief or religious purpose. It is just a harder sell. You will get some, but can you get enough good players to be competitive at the FBS level. I dont think they can. Maybe Im wrong.

Exactly, what has Liberty done in the Big South? A few first round crash outs in the NCAA basketball tournament. One FCS playoff appearance.

If Liberty is an appropriate expansion candidate, why not Sam Houston State or Stephen F Austin? Both of them are in the footprint and have shown more competitiveness than LU.

Because neither Sam Houston or SF Austin put butts in the seats. I've watched both play in the FCS playoffs with less then 15,000 in the stands. Sorry, but some of you guys need to stop pushing programs that can't get enough people buying into their football programs to suggest they should be FBS candidates.

unless it is a semi final game, playoff games for the most part have low attendance numbers, especially depending on which round. Especially if you get to a point in the playoffs where school has been let out for the semester, sometimes you only get 1 week to plan on your next game visit.

Now I say that, not knowing their regular season attendance, but I would weigh that much more than I would with playoff attendance numbers.

SHSU has problems putting fans in the stands period. I remember reading a lot of those complaints when they were making their first title run.

Yes, I think both App. State fans and Georgia Southern fans understand something about putting butts in when you are hosting a playoff game. That is why you have had good tradition. SHSU hosted a home playoff against N. Dakota State and couldn't get 15,000 in the stands.

(04-14-2015 10:23 AM)Crump1 Wrote:  I have never given even one thought on game day to the academic ranking or religious preference of my school's opponent. I think both are exaggerated fodder for off-season discussion.

Liberty is positioning itself as a de facto FBS program playing FCS with the move to pay COA across the board and I suspect not many will follow suit at the FCS level. They will keep spending hundreds of millions on facilities and will use the COA advantage to eventually convince an FBS conference to admit them.

If membership were simply an athletic decision Liberty would already be in. The only mark against them in athletics is they haven't been that great in the key sports. Budget, facilities, and support would have gotten them in.

But the chief executives of academic institutions make the final decision and thus Liberty remains outside with their nose pressed against the glass door.

(04-14-2015 12:44 PM)knucklehead Wrote:  I think the fact that people keep using the can't recruit or compete card in reference to LU is interesting to me. There are so many FBS Conferences with existing schools that can't do this, and yet no one cares.

True. No doubt about it, but they are already FBS. Liberty is not. Why put yourself in a position to fail? I dont mean that in a negative way or shot at Liberty. When GS was talking FBS, money was the issue with us. GS's growth has been all in the last 20 years or so. The point that couldnt be argued with however was the success of their football program. It wasnt just a couple years here and there that were successful, it was every year that was winning or playoff or championship. Plus their attractiveness and location were such that it would be hard to fail. GS just needed more money. Liberty has had some decent teams and a couple good seasons here and there but no real consistent winning production. Its been hard enough to recruit and be successful in FCS. What makes any Liberty folks think that FBS will be the same? You are talking a whole different ballgame in recruiting. If Liberty had one a couple FCS championships in the last 10 years and had gone to the playoffs and won some of those games over the last 10 years then maybe I would say that Liberty had something going on there that they could build on. As for now though, I just dont see them being able to withstand an FBS schedule and have success.

(04-14-2015 12:00 PM)eagle9098 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:49 AM)JCGSU Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 10:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 10:33 AM)eagle9098 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 08:23 AM)GE and MTS Wrote:  First people don't want Liberty because they have too much money and will run over everyone. Now they won't be able to recruit. Pick an argument and stick to it. You end up just arguing with yourself.

Dont know who your referring to but thats been my argument, although I havent been in this discussion much.

To answer the question about recruiting..........I dont doubt that Liberty can get players good enough to be competitive in FCS, and I dont doubt that Liberty has signed some quality players in the past. My concern would be that Liberty is a school that many of the football players that are FBS caliber just wont want to go to a Religious private type of school. You will find some. Like Furman, they have to recruit a certain kind of kid that in Furmans case is academic enough and wants to go for academic purposes much of the time. Furman does a good job getting those guys but probably would have a hard time doing it at the FBS level. Liberty will have to find players that want to come to their school for reasons, much of the time, because of their christian belief or religious purpose. It is just a harder sell. You will get some, but can you get enough good players to be competitive at the FBS level. I dont think they can. Maybe Im wrong.

Exactly, what has Liberty done in the Big South? A few first round crash outs in the NCAA basketball tournament. One FCS playoff appearance.

If Liberty is an appropriate expansion candidate, why not Sam Houston State or Stephen F Austin? Both of them are in the footprint and have shown more competitiveness than LU.

Been champion or co champion in the Big South every year since 07 I believe, just beat App, and that playoff appearance was last years playoffs where they won a game. Like it or not they are trending up and will have a great shot at back to back Sun Belt wins after this season. The Big South was ranked #2 as well. Folks may not like them but they are a legit candidate and have been getting better. They are not my #1 pick but I would not be concerned with adding them.

Everyone trends up and down in college football. Look at Florida right now. I have no personal issue with Liberty. To be honest I dont really care who they put in, I just want GS to win. Yes they did beat an App team that was finding itself and probably wasnt very prepared for that particular game. Yes they have made some improvements over the past few seasons, but it still remains to be seen whether they can recruit successfully enough to be a consistent contender each year. Moving to FBS creates a whole different level of recruitment issues for them.

Just stating what has happened recently is all. Also all of their G5 games since 2007 have been decided by less than 7 points I believe as well including a 3 point loss to Wake. I am sure they will lose out on recruits due to the nature of the school but they might also gain some who knows. I know adding scholarships and being in the FBS typically improves the recruits you get. I know not all religious people are inline with most of Liberty's stances, like me, but there is a Baptist church around every corner where I live and most of these new wave non denom churches are Baptist based as well.

(04-14-2015 02:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 10:23 AM)Crump1 Wrote:  I have never given even one thought on game day to the academic ranking or religious preference of my school's opponent. I think both are exaggerated fodder for off-season discussion.

Liberty is positioning itself as a de facto FBS program playing FCS with the move to pay COA across the board and I suspect not many will follow suit at the FCS level. They will keep spending hundreds of millions on facilities and will use the COA advantage to eventually convince an FBS conference to admit them.

If membership were simply an athletic decision Liberty would already be in. The only mark against them in athletics is they haven't been that great in the key sports. Budget, facilities, and support would have gotten them in.

But the chief executives of academic institutions make the final decision and thus Liberty remains outside with their nose pressed against the glass door.

That is my point. They keep building and with a recruiting advantage they start winning and someone will put their concerns aside eventually.

(04-14-2015 07:14 AM)EKUSteve Wrote:  The Horizon League just voted for full cost of attendance as well......

This is only for men's basketball and an equal number of female athlete's in league sponsored sports. I think most D1 basketball programs will do the same and most FCS football programs will not.

(04-14-2015 01:20 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:22 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:15 AM)Libertygrad01 Wrote:  That's reasonable. Liberty will bend over backwards to be good conference mates.

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heh....SBC should ask your Big South mates about that.

Enlighten us all as to the problems the Big South has with us.

lol...do you really want me to link Coastal threads? They just LOVE Liberty as a conference member.

(04-14-2015 02:59 PM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 01:20 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:22 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:15 AM)Libertygrad01 Wrote:  That's reasonable. Liberty will bend over backwards to be good conference mates.

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heh....SBC should ask your Big South mates about that.

Enlighten us all as to the problems the Big South has with us.

lol...do you really want me to link Coastal threads?

So you are just going to link to a fan message board? What a source! Excuse me while I link to a William and Mary message board to prove how the CAA hates JMU.

Liberty is positioning themselves well for a lawsuit, it is becoming more and more obvious it is about religious and cultural intolerance than academics or viability against Liberty Football. To me, this should have nothing to do with whether they are voted in or not into a conference. To me the simplest thing the NCAA could do to avoid this headache is provide Liberty an in as an independent because they offer CCOA, as it should for any FCS willing to do this. Let them go the BYU route. Either these schools will succeed or fail, but they should be given the opportunity.

(04-14-2015 03:06 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Liberty is positioning themselves well for a lawsuit, it is becoming more and more obvious it is about religious and cultural intolerance than academics or viability against Liberty Football. To me, this should have nothing to do with whether they are voted in or not into a conference. To me the simplest thing the NCAA could do to avoid this headache is provide Liberty an in as an independent because they offer CCOA, as it should for any FCS willing to do this. Let them go the BYU route. Either these schools will succeed or fail, but they should be given the opportunity.

agreed. Especially if the Big South evicts them due to the unfair competition provided by paying players when other conference members can't.

(04-14-2015 03:02 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 02:59 PM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 01:20 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:22 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:15 AM)Libertygrad01 Wrote:  That's reasonable. Liberty will bend over backwards to be good conference mates.

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heh....SBC should ask your Big South mates about that.

Enlighten us all as to the problems the Big South has with us.

lol...do you really want me to link Coastal threads?

So you are just going to link to a fan message board? What a source! Excuse me while I link to a William and Mary message board to prove how the CAA hates JMU.

Lol, pretty sure nobody in the CAA wants JMU to leave.

(04-14-2015 03:06 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Liberty is positioning themselves well for a lawsuit, it is becoming more and more obvious it is about religious and cultural intolerance than academics or viability against Liberty Football. To me, this should have nothing to do with whether they are voted in or not into a conference. To me the simplest thing the NCAA could do to avoid this headache is provide Liberty an in as an independent because they offer CCOA, as it should for any FCS willing to do this. Let them go the BYU route. Either these schools will succeed or fail, but they should be given the opportunity.

Totally agree. The whole process used to deny FBS admission seems to be just waiting for a challenge and completely devoid of a logical defense.

(04-14-2015 03:29 PM)KeyWestTROYTrojan Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 03:06 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Liberty is positioning themselves well for a lawsuit, it is becoming more and more obvious it is about religious and cultural intolerance than academics or viability against Liberty Football. To me, this should have nothing to do with whether they are voted in or not into a conference. To me the simplest thing the NCAA could do to avoid this headache is provide Liberty an in as an independent because they offer CCOA, as it should for any FCS willing to do this. Let them go the BYU route. Either these schools will succeed or fail, but they should be given the opportunity.

Totally agree. The whole process used to deny FBS admission seems to be just waiting for a challenge and completely devoid of a logical defense.

That's why I think the recruiting or not being competitive arguments are such a joke. It's about LU being private and religious, pretty simple.

Also, the Big South will not evict LU. My guess is the BSC will do like the horizon with bball and allow each school to decide the rest.

(04-14-2015 03:29 PM)KeyWestTROYTrojan Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 03:06 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Liberty is positioning themselves well for a lawsuit, it is becoming more and more obvious it is about religious and cultural intolerance than academics or viability against Liberty Football. To me, this should have nothing to do with whether they are voted in or not into a conference. To me the simplest thing the NCAA could do to avoid this headache is provide Liberty an in as an independent because they offer CCOA, as it should for any FCS willing to do this. Let them go the BYU route. Either these schools will succeed or fail, but they should be given the opportunity.

Totally agree. The whole process used to deny FBS admission seems to be just waiting for a challenge and completely devoid of a logical defense.

NCAA FBS membership standards require a school:
1. Play 9 FBS schools regardless of site.
2. Play 5 FBS at home but may substitute one high scholarship FCS in meeting that requirement.

Those are very reasonable standards. Trade associations (which the NCAA is most similar to) have been litigated under anti-trust many times. The courts will uphold membership standards that are reasonable. It is more than reasonable to expect that a school that markets itself as FBS will play mostly FBS teams and play a reasonable number of FBS games at home (rule really only requires four).

Skimming through about a half dozen schools that moved up before this criteria was adopted, I don't see anyone who has met it without being in a conference.

What good does it do Liberty to get the "must invite" rule struck down if they cannot meet the schedule requirements. Do we need to change those to provide a step stool to Liberty? Should we permit Liberty to market its program as FBS if they play zero or only one FBS teams at home?

I think the argument that the schedule requirements serve a reasonable purpose to protect the buying public is a rather strong one.

Now if Liberty lines up a compliant schedule and wants to challenge the rule, more power to them, I think they'd have a good case.

It may not be long before nmsu, and Idaho are available for home and home. UMass needs games as well. I would think we get get a home and home with ODU and several MAC schools. It wouldn't be a crazy stretch.

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For the record, Arkansas State's AD Mohajir brought up the recruiting question for Liberty and said it was shared by many of his colleagues.

For me, the main thing against Liberty in the Sun Belt is that they're a private school and the Sun Belt is a bunch of like-minded public schools. The missions of each are different. We saw what a hodge podge of publics and privates did to the SoCon.

We had Denver in the conference for quite some time and they are private. There are lots of private universities playing in largely public university conferences.

(04-14-2015 04:09 PM)T-Dog Wrote:  For the record, Arkansas State's AD Mohajir brought up the recruiting question for Liberty and said it was shared by many of his colleagues.

For me, the main thing against Liberty in the Sun Belt is that they're a private school and the Sun Belt is a bunch of like-minded public schools. The missions of each are different. We saw what a hodge podge of publics and privates did to the SoCon.

He had to say something.
Don't think he's going to say that LU isn't wanted because they are private or religious.

(04-14-2015 04:14 PM)Crump1 Wrote:  We had Denver in the conference for quite some time and they are private. There are lots of private universities playing in largely public university conferences.

I'm not sure Denver memories help sway anyone that Liberty would be ok in the SBC.