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America's Decay
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #81
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 12:37 PM by blunderbuss.)
04-13-2015 12:36 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:36 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?

Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.
04-13-2015 12:42 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #83
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:36 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?

Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.

Crime rate is a symptom of a problem. Pregnancy is a symptom of problem. We typically treat the symptoms not the root causes. Again, you have to believe premarital sex is bad, children without fathers are bad, etc...
04-13-2015 12:51 PM
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shiftyeagle Offline
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Post: #84
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

Did you look at the rates.....did you look at how incredibly high the rates are for minorities? Especially blacks. It's a huge issue that never gets addressed. Sweep it under the rug and claim ignorance is usually what happens.
04-13-2015 01:01 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:51 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:36 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?

Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.

Crime rate is a symptom of a problem. Pregnancy is a symptom of problem. We typically treat the symptoms not the root causes. Again, you have to believe premarital sex is bad, children without fathers are bad, etc...

Exactly, so where are the symptoms? If your claim is that society is diseased, you should be able to point out the symptoms which show this to be the case. You're not helping yourself here.
04-13-2015 01:03 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #86
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:01 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

Did you look at the rates.....did you look at how incredibly high the rates are for minorities? Especially blacks. It's a huge issue that never gets addressed. Sweep it under the rug and claim ignorance is usually what happens.

Wait, you're citing a CDC report on the issue of minority sexual health to show how it's an issue that never gets addressed?
04-13-2015 01:05 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #87
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 12:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:19 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  The drop in fertility rate is also skewing the numbers. While less women per 1,000 are having children out of wedlock, the percentage is growing according to the census.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

Ok, even if that is true, what negative effects is this having on our society? Violent crime is down, graduation is up, people live longer and have more access to information than ever before. It's far from perfect, and there are problems we need to deal with, but I'm not seeing any evidence of some drastic social decline.

From the same article:

Quote:Research shows that women with a nonmarital first birth are both less likely to ever marry and less likely to remain married if they do marry,” it said. Childbearing outside of marriage is also linked to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability

Quote:During the 1990s, around 70 percent of first-time mothers of all ages were married, with about 18 percent single and the rest cohabiting, the report said.

By the years 2005-2012, however, data showed that a significantly smaller majority of new mothers — 55 percent — were married, while 25 percent were cohabiting and 20 percent were single and without a steady partner.

Moreover, the new data show that for the youngest mothers, norms surrounding marriage and childbearing have flipped.

Before 1990, more than 60 percent of first-time mothers aged 23 or younger were married, with smaller cohorts either cohabiting or single.

But after 2005, only 24 percent of these young women were married when they had their first child. Instead, they were more likely to be either cohabiting (38 percent) or not in any defined relationship at all (38 percent).

So in other words, wait and see, things are about to get uglier.
04-13-2015 01:10 PM
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shiftyeagle Offline
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Post: #88
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:05 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:01 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:24 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  These are quite startling statistics. Decay is one way to put it.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/minorities.htm

So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

Did you look at the rates.....did you look at how incredibly high the rates are for minorities? Especially blacks. It's a huge issue that never gets addressed. Sweep it under the rug and claim ignorance is usually what happens.

Wait, you're citing a CDC report on the issue of minority sexual health to show how it's an issue that never gets addressed?

The CDC reports statistics. When is the last time you saw a community leader address this problem? When is the last time we saw politicians address it? Or even mention it?

Minorities and homosexuals have a disproportionate STD rate. That is a fact. A fact that no one ever addresses out of fear of making people butthurt.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 01:12 PM by shiftyeagle.)
04-13-2015 01:12 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:10 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:19 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  The drop in fertility rate is also skewing the numbers. While less women per 1,000 are having children out of wedlock, the percentage is growing according to the census.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

Ok, even if that is true, what negative effects is this having on our society? Violent crime is down, graduation is up, people live longer and have more access to information than ever before. It's far from perfect, and there are problems we need to deal with, but I'm not seeing any evidence of some drastic social decline.

From the same article:

Quote:Research shows that women with a nonmarital first birth are both less likely to ever marry and less likely to remain married if they do marry,” it said. Childbearing outside of marriage is also linked to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability

Quote:During the 1990s, around 70 percent of first-time mothers of all ages were married, with about 18 percent single and the rest cohabiting, the report said.

By the years 2005-2012, however, data showed that a significantly smaller majority of new mothers — 55 percent — were married, while 25 percent were cohabiting and 20 percent were single and without a steady partner.

Moreover, the new data show that for the youngest mothers, norms surrounding marriage and childbearing have flipped.

Before 1990, more than 60 percent of first-time mothers aged 23 or younger were married, with smaller cohorts either cohabiting or single.

But after 2005, only 24 percent of these young women were married when they had their first child. Instead, they were more likely to be either cohabiting (38 percent) or not in any defined relationship at all (38 percent).

So in other words, wait and see, things are about to get uglier.

This isn't something that occurred overnight, the rates have been changing for over 20 years now, easily long enough for us to see some effect of this moral decline. I'm just not seeing it.

[Image: 0512_pregnancy.jpg]

[Image: ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif]
04-13-2015 01:15 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #90
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:03 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:51 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:36 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  So because a single type of STD is on the rise, that's evidence of widespread social decay? Come on.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?

Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.

Crime rate is a symptom of a problem. Pregnancy is a symptom of problem. We typically treat the symptoms not the root causes. Again, you have to believe premarital sex is bad, children without fathers are bad, etc...

Exactly, so where are the symptoms? If your claim is that society is diseased, you should be able to point out the symptoms which show this to be the case. You're not helping yourself here.

Crime rates can drop by putting a bunch more police officers on the street. That doesn't mean we've fixed all the issues of absentee fathers. Of course you have to believe single mothers are a problem.

Pregnancy rates can decrease by giving a bunch of teens condoms. That doesn't mean we solved the problem of premarital sex. Of course you have to believe that's a problem in the first place.
04-13-2015 01:16 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:16 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:03 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:51 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:36 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  What kind of evidence are you looking for? We can't even really have this conversation b/c folks of your ilk won't acknowledge or don't believe that the LBGT's are perverts. When you can't agree on what's wrong what kind of dialog can be had?

Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.

Crime rate is a symptom of a problem. Pregnancy is a symptom of problem. We typically treat the symptoms not the root causes. Again, you have to believe premarital sex is bad, children without fathers are bad, etc...

Exactly, so where are the symptoms? If your claim is that society is diseased, you should be able to point out the symptoms which show this to be the case. You're not helping yourself here.

Crime rates can drop by putting a bunch more police officers on the street. That doesn't mean we've fixed all the issues of absentee fathers. Of course you have to believe single mothers are a problem.

Pregnancy rates can decrease by giving a bunch of teens condoms. That doesn't mean we solved the problem of premarital sex. Of course you have to believe that's a problem in the first place.

I can still point out the flaw in your argument. Stating something is bad just because it is, isn't a defensible position. You need to state why it is bad, and show compelling evidence in favor of your conclusion. If not, it's hard to take your claims seriously.
04-13-2015 01:19 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #92
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:15 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:10 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:19 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  The drop in fertility rate is also skewing the numbers. While less women per 1,000 are having children out of wedlock, the percentage is growing according to the census.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

Ok, even if that is true, what negative effects is this having on our society? Violent crime is down, graduation is up, people live longer and have more access to information than ever before. It's far from perfect, and there are problems we need to deal with, but I'm not seeing any evidence of some drastic social decline.

From the same article:

Quote:Research shows that women with a nonmarital first birth are both less likely to ever marry and less likely to remain married if they do marry,” it said. Childbearing outside of marriage is also linked to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability

Quote:During the 1990s, around 70 percent of first-time mothers of all ages were married, with about 18 percent single and the rest cohabiting, the report said.

By the years 2005-2012, however, data showed that a significantly smaller majority of new mothers — 55 percent — were married, while 25 percent were cohabiting and 20 percent were single and without a steady partner.

Moreover, the new data show that for the youngest mothers, norms surrounding marriage and childbearing have flipped.

Before 1990, more than 60 percent of first-time mothers aged 23 or younger were married, with smaller cohorts either cohabiting or single.

But after 2005, only 24 percent of these young women were married when they had their first child. Instead, they were more likely to be either cohabiting (38 percent) or not in any defined relationship at all (38 percent).

So in other words, wait and see, things are about to get uglier.

This isn't something that occurred overnight, the rates have been changing for over 20 years now, easily long enough for us to see some effect of this moral decline. I'm just not seeing it.

[Image: 0512_pregnancy.jpg]

[Image: ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif]

??? What does that have to do with what I posted??? The article links single motherhood to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability. That has nothing to do with young pregnancies and crime. You don't have to be a teen to be a single mother; furthermore, in 1990, 60% of young women were married when they had their first child. Now the number is 24%.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 01:24 PM by EverRespect.)
04-13-2015 01:23 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #93
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:19 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:16 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:03 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:51 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Rise in crime rate? Increase in teen pregnancy? There are all sorts of metrics one can use, but unfortunately, they don't support your conclusion.

Crime rate is a symptom of a problem. Pregnancy is a symptom of problem. We typically treat the symptoms not the root causes. Again, you have to believe premarital sex is bad, children without fathers are bad, etc...

Exactly, so where are the symptoms? If your claim is that society is diseased, you should be able to point out the symptoms which show this to be the case. You're not helping yourself here.

Crime rates can drop by putting a bunch more police officers on the street. That doesn't mean we've fixed all the issues of absentee fathers. Of course you have to believe single mothers are a problem.

Pregnancy rates can decrease by giving a bunch of teens condoms. That doesn't mean we solved the problem of premarital sex. Of course you have to believe that's a problem in the first place.

I can still point out the flaw in your argument. Stating something is bad just because it is, isn't a defensible position. You need to state why it is bad, and show compelling evidence in favor of your conclusion. If not, it's hard to take your claims seriously.

Sigh, I'm convinced that you're actually a robot. So, you're telling me I need to PROVE that not having a father is bad. I need to PROVE that kids having sex is bad.

If that's REALLY what you're asking, this conversation is over.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 01:27 PM by blunderbuss.)
04-13-2015 01:25 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #94
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:23 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:15 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 01:10 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:22 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(04-13-2015 12:19 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  The drop in fertility rate is also skewing the numbers. While less women per 1,000 are having children out of wedlock, the percentage is growing according to the census.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

Ok, even if that is true, what negative effects is this having on our society? Violent crime is down, graduation is up, people live longer and have more access to information than ever before. It's far from perfect, and there are problems we need to deal with, but I'm not seeing any evidence of some drastic social decline.

From the same article:

Quote:Research shows that women with a nonmarital first birth are both less likely to ever marry and less likely to remain married if they do marry,” it said. Childbearing outside of marriage is also linked to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability

Quote:During the 1990s, around 70 percent of first-time mothers of all ages were married, with about 18 percent single and the rest cohabiting, the report said.

By the years 2005-2012, however, data showed that a significantly smaller majority of new mothers — 55 percent — were married, while 25 percent were cohabiting and 20 percent were single and without a steady partner.

Moreover, the new data show that for the youngest mothers, norms surrounding marriage and childbearing have flipped.

Before 1990, more than 60 percent of first-time mothers aged 23 or younger were married, with smaller cohorts either cohabiting or single.

But after 2005, only 24 percent of these young women were married when they had their first child. Instead, they were more likely to be either cohabiting (38 percent) or not in any defined relationship at all (38 percent).

So in other words, wait and see, things are about to get uglier.

This isn't something that occurred overnight, the rates have been changing for over 20 years now, easily long enough for us to see some effect of this moral decline. I'm just not seeing it.

[Image: 0512_pregnancy.jpg]

[Image: ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif]

??? What does that have to do with what I posted??? The article links single motherhood to higher risks for poverty, lower educational attainment and family instability. That has nothing to do with young pregnancies and crime. You don't have to be a teen to be a single mother; furthermore, in 1990, 60% of young women were married when they had their first child. Now the number is 24%.

I'm only citing those because you're not offering any other metrics to measure the negative effects this trend has had on society. You just don't seem to understand how rational people come to conclusions about things like this, because you're just using circle reasoning to defend your claim. You can't use the unmarried mother rate as both the cause for concern and the evidence that it's having a negative effect on society.
04-13-2015 01:41 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #95
RE: America's Decay
It isn't me just making claims, it is according to Census Bureau researchers Lindsay M. Monte and Renee R. Ellis. It is well documented, but this is a message board and I have a full time job. If you are looking for a thesis paper full of citations, you aren't going to get it. If you don't believe the research, that is your perogative, but it is there. If you truly don't believe children are statistically raised better in a traditional family, I am baffled.
04-13-2015 01:47 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #96
RE: America's Decay
(04-13-2015 01:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  It isn't me just making claims, it is according to Census Bureau researchers Lindsay M. Monte and Renee R. Ellis. It is well documented, but this is a message board and I have a full time job. If you are looking for a thesis paper full of citations, you aren't going to get it. If you don't believe the research, that is your perogative, but it is there. If you truly don't believe children are statistically raised better in a traditional family, I am baffled.

I'm not looking for a thesis paper or a list of citations, I'm asking for a single metric you'd consider indicative of the effect this moral decline is having on our society. It's simple, you claim that having more single parents leads to negative effects on our children, and society in general. That's fine, and I'm not arguing the rate of single parents, I'm simply asking for a description of the sort of negative effects this admitted decline in married parents would present on society as a whole. Not only are the most common metrics for raising societal and moral standing of a society not trending the way this article claims, they're trending in an opposite direction. This fact should make you question the conclusion this article is presenting.

So, please, tell me where I should start looking to see this 25 year phenomena exist?
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 01:58 PM by UCF08.)
04-13-2015 01:57 PM
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