2007, when Florida won, everyone since has been a repeat champion. Wisconsin would have been a repeat champion but for the first time since 1941, when there were 8 teams in the Tournament and it didn't even mean as much. As a matter of fact there's only been 3 new or decades removed champions since 2001.

It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

(04-06-2015 11:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

And football has new champions? Seems like the same 10-12 teams getting recycled.

(04-06-2015 11:14 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-06-2015 11:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

And football has new champions? Seems like the same 10-12 teams getting recycled.

Actually it's the College World Series that produces new Champions. Fresno State and Vanderbilt recently come to mind. College football will always be the major brands until we have a champs only format. That's the only reason we have a selection committee now. It insures that maximum national viewers will be involved. You can't have two privates from Texas in the final four. They just don't get the eyeballs that drive the advertising rates. The only way around it is champs only. Every conference gets their champion in. But then that's why we have 5 conferences. We had to have a great reason not to have 4 champions only. That keeps the power brokers in business and guarantees the network gets its national brands.

(04-06-2015 11:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-06-2015 11:14 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-06-2015 11:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

And football has new champions? Seems like the same 10-12 teams getting recycled.

Actually it's the College World Series that produces new Champions. Fresno State and Vanderbilt recently come to mind. College football will always be the major brands until we have a champs only format. That's the only reason we have a selection committee now. It insures that maximum national viewers will be involved. You can't have two privates from Texas in the final four. They just don't get the eyeballs that drive the advertising rates. The only way around it is champs only. Every conference gets their champion in. But then that's why we have 5 conferences. We had to have a great reason not to have 4 champions only. That keeps the power brokers in business and guarantees the network gets its national brands.

We have 10 conferences.

(04-06-2015 11:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Actually it's the College World Series that produces new Champions. Fresno State and Vanderbilt recently come to mind. College football will always be the major brands until we have a champs only format. That's the only reason we have a selection committee now. It insures that maximum national viewers will be involved. You can't have two privates from Texas in the final four. They just don't get the eyeballs that drive the advertising rates. The only way around it is champs only. Every conference gets their champion in. But then that's why we have 5 conferences. We had to have a great reason not to have 4 champions only. That keeps the power brokers in business and guarantees the network gets its national brands.

UC Irvine has been to the CWS twice over the last 10 years. Stony Brook's been there once. TCU a couple times as well.

Yes, if you wanted a more fair champion, it should be a best of 3 elimination and only regular season conference champions invited.

But if your main complaint is that its the same teams winning the national title, I am not sure if that would change things. I guess it would prevent the UConn and Kentucky last year, or MSU this year, making a run. But odds are the final 4 would still be P5 teams.

(04-06-2015 11:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

Bravo. Bravo. I hate basketball. Make the court twice as long. Raise the goal 3ft. The refs are arbitrary and capricious, and that's being kind and dismissing more sinister notions. AAU is rotten to the core and the players aren't students they are mercenaries. The whole sport is contrived and crooked.

Sad part is that football is heading that way fast.

Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

(04-07-2015 08:37 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

Since the Modern Era in basketball began in 87 there has been 16 different champions. In that same time frame there have been 15 AP National Champions in Football. Pretty darn similiar.

Basketball:
Duke - 5
UConn -4
Kentucky - 3
UNC - 3
Kansas -2
Florida - 2
Louisville
Cuse
Maryland
MSU
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLC
Michigan
Indiana

Football:
Alabama - 4
Miami - 4
FSU - 3
Florida - 3
OSU - 2
USC - 2
Nebraska - 2
Notre Dame
Colorado
Michigan
Tenn
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Auburn

Football is confusing because there have been co-champions. I would think you have to count any of these things as national champions in football, AP writers poll, coaches poll, bowl coalition, bowl alliance, BCS or CFP champion. Which means you are going to have co-champions.

Also not sure why you chose 1987 as starting point. 1985 was the year the BB tourney expanded to 64. That seems like a good year to start. Or 1998 when the BCS started. Or does it have something to do with the shot clock?

(04-07-2015 08:56 AM)Hank Schrader Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:37 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

Since the Modern Era in basketball began in 87 there has been 16 different champions. In that same time frame there have been 15 AP National Champions in Football. Pretty darn similiar.

Basketball:
Duke - 5
UConn -4
Kentucky - 3
UNC - 3
Kansas -2
Florida - 2
Louisville
Cuse
Maryland
MSU
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLC
Michigan
Indiana

Football:
Alabama - 4
Miami - 4
FSU - 3
Florida - 3
OSU - 2
USC - 2
Nebraska - 2
Notre Dame
Colorado
Michigan
Tenn
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Auburn

In that same time period in baseball, we have 17 champions:

LSU (6)
Cal St. Fullerton (2)
Miami (Fla.) (2)
Oregon State (2)
South Carolina (2)
Stanford (2)
Texas (2)
Arizona
Fresno State
Georgia
Oklahoma
Pepperdine
Rice
Southern California
UCLA
Vanderbilt
Wichita State

It's definitely a different list from the football and basketball lists, but there are quite a few repeat winners here as well (although only one with more than 2).

(04-07-2015 09:19 AM)goofus Wrote:  Football is confusing because there have been co-champions. I would think you have to count any of these things as national champions in football, AP writers poll, coaches poll, bowl coalition, bowl alliance, BCS or CFP champion. Which means you are going to have co-champions.

Also not sure why you chose 1987 as starting point. 1985 was the year the BB tourney expanded to 64. That seems like a good year to start. Or 1998 when the BCS started. Or does it have something to do with the shot clock?

I just based it on a google and clicked the first link that popped up. I notice now I based it on the "modern game" and not "modern era" when expanded to 64. I was more concerned with the number of champions. If the list went back 2 more years you can add 1 more team for football (Penn State) and 1 more for basketball (Villanova), so the point remains that the exclusitivity of champions remain nearly identical in football and basketball.
http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/inde...n_the.html

"The "modern" game, which in college basketball began in the 1986-87 season, when the 3-point shot and the 45-second shot clock (now 35 seconds) simultaneously debuted, is..."

(04-07-2015 08:56 AM)Hank Schrader Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:37 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

Since the Modern Era in basketball began in 87 there has been 16 different champions. In that same time frame there have been 15 AP National Champions in Football. Pretty darn similiar.

Basketball:
Duke - 5
UConn -4
Kentucky - 3
UNC - 3
Kansas -2
Florida - 2
Louisville
Cuse
Maryland
MSU
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLC
Michigan
Indiana

Football:
Alabama - 4
Miami - 4
FSU - 3
Florida - 3
OSU - 2
USC - 2
Nebraska - 2
Notre Dame
Colorado
Michigan
Tenn
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Auburn

That's pretty arbitrary. 1987 is the beginning of the modern era?

(04-07-2015 10:25 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:56 AM)Hank Schrader Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:37 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

Since the Modern Era in basketball began in 87 there has been 16 different champions. In that same time frame there have been 15 AP National Champions in Football. Pretty darn similiar.

Basketball:
Duke - 5
UConn -4
Kentucky - 3
UNC - 3
Kansas -2
Florida - 2
Louisville
Cuse
Maryland
MSU
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLC
Michigan
Indiana

Football:
Alabama - 4
Miami - 4
FSU - 3
Florida - 3
OSU - 2
USC - 2
Nebraska - 2
Notre Dame
Colorado
Michigan
Tenn
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Auburn

That's pretty arbitrary. 1987 is the beginning of the modern era?

Try to keep up. You can only use championships from an era that UConn won all of its championships. All Joking aside most likely 3 point area. Some would argue that was the beginning of the end of college basketball.
CJ

(04-07-2015 08:32 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(04-06-2015 11:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It's why I don't get wound around the cord over basketball. Now that they squeeze 68 teams in the NCAA and 32 more into the NIT all these last three weeks mean to me is that 98 programs will end the season by losing and only 2 will end it with a win. And only one of those will be called the champion and that regardless of what they did in the regular season, conference schedule, or conference tournament. It's a dog and pony show more than a sport. The hottest or luckiest team wins it almost every year. And, the brackets are set up for mid major upsets but for a final 8 mostly made up of blue bloods. That's why you basically just have repeat winners.

For championships I much prefer the NCAA baseball tournament with a double elimination tournament interspersed with the best of 3 series.

Football is getting better but has a long way to go to be a fairer format. Nobody knows for sure every year which conferences were tougher in the regular season and which ones weren't. That's why a champions only model is the way to go. Any other format is right back to placing the decisions in the hands of people whether through polls or now committees.

Personally I think April 7th, 2015 will be a great day. No more basketball.

Bravo. Bravo. I hate basketball. Make the court twice as long. Raise the goal 3ft. The refs are arbitrary and capricious, and that's being kind and dismissing more sinister notions. AAU is rotten to the core and the players aren't students they are mercenaries. The whole sport is contrived and crooked.

Sad part is that football is heading that way fast.

Here here....
Thank God college basketball is over until October.
Bring on football
CJ

(04-07-2015 10:32 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 10:25 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:56 AM)Hank Schrader Wrote:  

(04-07-2015 08:37 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Yep, I think of it all the time. Whoever is supposed to be good any given year, give me six teams at the start of the year and you take the field, and I'll be in pretty good shape.

People talk about football being a few haves and a bunch of have-nots and think of basketball as somehow more egalitarian than football because of the inclusiveness of the tournament, but it really isn't.

Football and basketball, first time champions (or first time in modern era) are very rare. Oregon failed again this year to break the seal.

Since the Modern Era in basketball began in 87 there has been 16 different champions. In that same time frame there have been 15 AP National Champions in Football. Pretty darn similiar.

Basketball:
Duke - 5
UConn -4
Kentucky - 3
UNC - 3
Kansas -2
Florida - 2
Louisville
Cuse
Maryland
MSU
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLC
Michigan
Indiana

Football:
Alabama - 4
Miami - 4
FSU - 3
Florida - 3
OSU - 2
USC - 2
Nebraska - 2
Notre Dame
Colorado
Michigan
Tenn
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Auburn

That's pretty arbitrary. 1987 is the beginning of the modern era?

Try to keep up. You can only use championships from an era that UConn won all of its championships. All Joking aside most likely 3 point area. Some would argue that was the beginning of the end of college basketball.
CJ

Good grief. I'm not even the one that suggested the modern era.

I didn't have time to go back to the dawn of time to complete an entire list anyway. I got it started. Someone with more time can maybe finish up the tally. It would be interesting to see if the numbers between football and basketball remain similiar before the modern era anyway.

The modern era began either:

-In 1975, the beginning of the multi-bid conference era
-1979, when the Tournament began to be seeded. This was also the year of the 1-AA/1-A split in football IIRC, so it may be the best year to mark the change.
-1985, when the Dance first invited 64 teams
-1998, when the power of college football and in turn college sports shifted toward the conferences who were automatically invited to the BCS.

Anything else looks arbitrary and smacks of an agenda.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I don't think that it's unfair to start with the first year with both a shot clock and 3 point shot, both of which were brought in shortly after expanding the field to 64. The enlarged field and those two big changes to the fundamental rules of play seem to me to be a reasonable starting point for analyzing "modern" college basketball.

(04-07-2015 10:49 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  The modern era began either:

-In 1975, the beginning of the multi-bid conference era
-1979, when the Tournament began to be seeded. This was also the year of the 1-AA/1-A split in football IIRC, so it may be the best year to mark the change.
-1985, when the Dance first invited 64 teams
-1998, when the power of college football and in turn college sports shifted toward the conferences who were automatically invited to the BCS.

Anything else looks arbitrary and smacks of an agenda.

Honestly what could possibly be my agenda? I explained on page 1 where i got 1987 from and included the link and admited to mixing up "modern age" and modern era. I went back to 85 and incldued PSU and Nova in that post as well.

EDIT: Not to mention the entire point of the discussion has been swayed by questioning the start point on the list. Does it really matter to the overal point being made regarding number of football and basketball champions in a certain time frame? This board feels like bizarro world right now...maybe I didn't make the overal point clear enoguh when expanding on Lou C's post.