(04-13-2015 02:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:38 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Well bottomline we need local NYC media to continue to talk about the ACC...UConn helps there with Cuse.

nzm...basically the B1G would control NYC Metro if they grab UConn.

In what way?

Penn St, Rutgers and UConn...guess who gets the regional ABC game at 3:30pm?

Penn State v. Iowa. What's your point?

(04-13-2015 07:20 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 12:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 10:59 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  What I mean on UConn. UConn helps solidify NYC and New England. If the B1G grabs UConn they would effectively place a phalanx into the mid-atlantic cutting off Cuse and BC.

Well, the ACC has Clemson, Georgia Tech and Florida State - has that cut off the SEC from South Carolina and Florida?

IMO, if the Big Ten ever adds UConn, it would have little effect on BC and 'Cuse, and might even promote more college FOOTBALL fans in the Northeast.

Kudos for using the word "phalanx", though. Perhaps next time you can work in "siege" and "flank". ;-)

This is exactly why we all appreciate Virginia Tech in the league. The Corps of Cadets produces sound strategic thinkers, rivaled in the P5 only by TAMU's Corps in the SEC.

It's also why we should add VMI and Navy as #15 and #16. With VPI and VMI advancing up the Valley and Navy flanking along the coast (and achieving air superiority), Penn State, Maryland and Rutgers will be cut off from each other and from the rest of the Big Then. Pitt's ROTC contingent can hold off the Big Then throngs at the Steel Valley- a natural chokepoint - until the Hokies and Keydets arrive from the South and the Marines and SEALs arrive from the East to break the siege. UConn and the Big Then won't stand a chance.

If we add VMI and team up with the SEC, we will have ties to both of these guys:

and

Given I once heard a student-run PSU radio station compare the school's president to Hitler (favorably), we might need Patton and George.

(04-13-2015 10:27 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 09:25 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  ...a fine line between collecting a few money losers to increase the overall bottomline and just collecting money losers.

The ACC really could use UConn to help secure a major spot in the NE.

It seems like you guys are REALLY overestimating the value of UConn. Assume for a moment that ESPN is right about TV contract valuation being 80% football... just how valuable is UConn? And even if UConn was the MOST valuable basketball property (it isn't) and if Notre Dame had ZERO value in basketball (not true), ND would still be almost 4X more valuable than UConn. That applies to teams like BC, too (although BC is not 4X more valuable, it is probably a little more valuable thanks to football).

I would not assume that. I don't believe Espn's shite as far as I can throw the MF'ers. When they were called on telling the ACC what schools to take from the BE they said, oh no we didn't... we just told them how much money we'd give them to take certain schools... --whatevah

They have every incentive to keep the pool of schools who have 'value' as small as possible... and that is because they can't possibly control all of Fbs if they don't downgrade half of 'em! Too much money to pay for all of it-- others (like NBC, Fox) would get to cut themselves into their game.

Now look at DI hoops, well over 300 schools--- no way. If Espn is saying anything, I run it through any number of spectrometers and vet it thoroughly before I buy anything those self-serving dbags say.

(04-13-2015 07:20 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 02:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:38 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Well bottomline we need local NYC media to continue to talk about the ACC...UConn helps there with Cuse.

nzm...basically the B1G would control NYC Metro if they grab UConn.

In what way?

Penn St, Rutgers and UConn...guess who gets the regional ABC game at 3:30pm?

Penn State v. Iowa. What's your point?

My point has been the same the whole time...UConn is a vital key to keeping the ACC on equal footing with the B1G in the NE. This would be a strategic geographic addition.

(04-13-2015 10:57 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 07:20 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 02:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:38 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Well bottomline we need local NYC media to continue to talk about the ACC...UConn helps there with Cuse.

nzm...basically the B1G would control NYC Metro if they grab UConn.

In what way?

Penn St, Rutgers and UConn...guess who gets the regional ABC game at 3:30pm?

Penn State v. Iowa. What's your point?

My point has been the same the whole time...UConn is a vital key to keeping the ACC on equal footing with the B1G in the NE. This would be a strategic geographic addition.

What specifically do you mean and how? I may not have been clear with my questions. I am looking for something along these lines:

"Adding UConn will increase the media payout by ~$XXX,XXX/school/year because UConn enjoys a level of overall fan support that is above the ACC's average and that can be seen through the fact that UConn's attendance is great and their ratings are extremely high, given their current time slots and the competition at those slots. That increased media payout can then be used by the other ACC schools to improve facilities and coaching staffs, thereby improving the quality of athletics for the conference as a whole."
or
"Adding UConn will improve the conference's overall competitiveness because UConn is a high profile school that is located in an otherwise untapped recruiting hot bed, so its addition will improve the average talent level for the other ACC teams. Specifically, players from that hotbed will be more likely to go to other ACC schools because they will be guaranteed games in front of their family/friends every other year, because they will be guaranteed an additional game on national TV every year, and because they will get a chance to exact revenge on UConn, their childhood dream school that passed them up."

I don't think that any of the above arguments are actually applicable to UConn. They're for illustrative purposes only. However, I am looking for something along those lines because that makes sense to me (in terms of the logic behind the statement and the importance of the end result) and the argument is specific enough and transparent enough to be debated. Phalanx movements, the abstract notion of "equal footing," the abstract notion of "controlling" an area, and so on don't make sense to me. They sound like empty internet buzzwords that were either never really thought-out by the guy who first used them, or were extremely oversimplified.

Either way, although we might be at "war" with the B1G, we are at "war" with them in the sense that Microsoft and Google are at "war," not in the sense that the USofA and the Germans were at war during WWII. We're ultimately competing for hearts and minds, not geographic locations. We can't actually kill people who disagree. I think that people forget that fact.

Well NZ...you asked a great question...how much would UConn add? That is for Swoffie and ESPN to figure out. My thinking was on the bigger strategic level.

UConn will bring in a population of 3.5 million mostly well off folks and help the ACC to launch their network in the greater tri-state region of about 30 million along with Cuse, Notre Dame and the rest of the ACC schools.

Don't believe for a second UCONN does anything but lose money.

If they did, they would be in a power 5 conference RIGHT NOW.


They add even LESS value for conferences already solid in basketball.....which means they add even less for the ACC.


Just another mouth to feed for the conference with the lowest payout.

BIG EAST move.

(04-14-2015 08:02 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Well NZ...you asked a great question...how much would UConn add? That is for Swoffie and ESPN to figure out. My thinking was on the bigger strategic level.

UConn will bring in a population of 3.5 million mostly well off folks and help the ACC to launch their network in the greater tri-state region of about 30 million along with Cuse, Notre Dame and the rest of the ACC schools.

Right, but since when did location matter? Cable co.'s will only pay what something is worth, and that number is determined by how many end customers (i.e. schmucks like us) will pay a given price point. The number of schmucks willing to pay to see UConn athletics is a product of the number of fans that UConn has and how passionate they are.

This article doesn't inspire loads of confidence:
http://www.courant.com/data-desk/hc-ucon...story.html

(04-13-2015 05:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 02:59 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I tend to agree with Mark in that he view New York City and the 35+ million people in the Northeast as important to the ACC Network and the profitability/survival of the ACC.

He does not want to cede that territory to the Big Ten, who clearly covets it.

There is a big gap in the ACC map between Virginia and BC.

The ACC "quality schools" in between Charlottesville and Boston are who outside PSU, Rutgers, and MD?

1. The Naval Academy in Annapolis MD/Baltimore
2. Villanova in Philly? - FCS Football
3. St. John's In NYC? - No Football/No Recruiting Area
4. Temple in Philly? - Bad Football
5. UConn in Hartford? - Bad Football/No Recruiting Area

Of these five, who is likely to get the okay from FSU, GT, Clemson, VT, and NC State when it comes to playing football?

Hey, I brought up Navy/Georgetown as an alternative long ago.

But I am not pushing anything since I don't want ND to join in full.

You guys decide.

In July 2011 The Big 12 made casual calls gauging Louisville's interest in joining The Big 12. In August 2011 kindly told The Big 12 Thanks but Louisville was happy in The Big East. A Big East that included WVU, Pitt and Syracuse. In September 2011, once the Panthers and Orange accepted an ACC invite, Louisville's attitude toward The Big 12 changed. Tom called Boren, who was The Big 12's point man, back but The Big 12 was already talking with WVU, who until that time, had been pursuing an SEC invite. In October 2011 The Big 12 invited WVU. That same month Jurich told The Big East Louisville was leaving.

Louisville continued to pursue The Big 12. I know that Tom Jurich traveled to Austin in early 2012 in an effort to get Deloss Dodd's support for Louisville in a Big 12 expansion scenario. The general feeling being The Big 12 expanding was Louisville's only shot at getting out of a sinking Big East.

Fast forward to November 2012 Maryland jumps to ACC and the rest as they say is history.

The truth is, without a doubt, if Maryland had not left The ACC, Louisville would still be in The American. Furthermore, without Syracuse, Florida State and Clemson's support, Louisville would not have got an ACC invite over UConn.

In the end Louisville got the invite to the conference that best fits it's athletic profile. If Louisville could have had a choice between The ACC and Big 12, Louisville would have chose The ACC. With that being said however, if The Big 12 would have invited Louisville before November 2012, Louisville would have accepted. Knowing how Jurich operates, if The Big 12 had invited Louisville, Louisville would have stayed in The Big 12. Jurich would have told The ACC thanks but no thanks.
CJ

(04-13-2015 10:57 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 07:20 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 02:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:38 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Well bottomline we need local NYC media to continue to talk about the ACC...UConn helps there with Cuse.

nzm...basically the B1G would control NYC Metro if they grab UConn.

In what way?

Penn St, Rutgers and UConn...guess who gets the regional ABC game at 3:30pm?

Penn State v. Iowa. What's your point?

My point has been the same the whole time...UConn is a vital key to keeping the ACC on equal footing with the B1G in the NE. This would be a strategic geographic addition.

UConn's addition does nothing for the ACC.
The only way to boost the attention of the old eastern independent crowd would be to add West Virginia. THAT would be a strategic geographic addition.
The ACC has already ceded NYC to the B1G, it does not make sense to try to compete in that market when there are better alternatives elsewhere.

(04-14-2015 11:33 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 10:57 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 07:20 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 02:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 01:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  In what way?

Penn St, Rutgers and UConn...guess who gets the regional ABC game at 3:30pm?

Penn State v. Iowa. What's your point?

My point has been the same the whole time...UConn is a vital key to keeping the ACC on equal footing with the B1G in the NE. This would be a strategic geographic addition.

UConn's addition does nothing for the ACC.
The only way to boost the attention of the old eastern independent crowd would be to add West Virginia. THAT would be a strategic geographic addition.
The ACC has already ceded NYC to the B1G, it does not make sense to try to compete in that market when there are better alternatives elsewhere.

"The ACC has already ceded NYC to the B1G"
Huh?

(04-14-2015 11:33 AM)XLance Wrote:  UConn's addition does nothing for the ACC.
The only way to boost the attention of the old eastern independent crowd would be to add West Virginia. THAT would be a strategic geographic addition.
The ACC has already ceded NYC to the B1G, it does not make sense to try to compete in that market when there are better alternatives elsewhere.

I personally believe UConn would be a tremendous asset to any conference. Their programs are competitive and their fans passionate. Not sure if these rumors have any base in fact. If however they do I would be very supportive.

With that being said I don't think The ACC has turned its back on NYC. If it did why hold your basketball tournament there?
CJ

New York city has over 8 million people.

It's big enough for two P5 conferences.

(04-14-2015 01:23 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  New York city has over 8 million people.

It's big enough for two P5 conferences.

I'm reminded of the old saw about folks using statistics like a drunk uses a light pole -- more for support than illumination.

Yes, New York City, with its 8 million notoriously rabid college football fans, is big enough for two P5 schools. But neither of those two schools, one already a P5 school (Rutgers) and the other a potential P5 school UConn), is actually situated in New York.

North Carolina, with a bit more than 9 million residents, is somehow big enough to accommodate four P5 schools, all of them in the same conference.

Kentucky, with a population of less than 4.5 million, has two P5 schools.

Oklahoma, with a population of 3.7 million, has two P5 schools, both of them in the same conference.

Iowa, with a population of 3 million, has two P5 schools.

Kansas, with a population of 2.8 million, has two P5 schools, both of them in the same conference.

Utah, with 2.7 million residents, has two P5 schools. Well, OK, there's only one P5 school in Utah, but the non-P5 school can now be considered a P5 school by any P5 opponent looking to pad its OOC resume. So, it's an honorary P5 school.

Washington, with a population of 6.5 million, has two P5 schools, both in the same conference.

West Virginia, with a population of 1.8 million, has one P5 school.

Oregon, with a population of 3.8 million, has two P5 schools, both in the same conference.

Mississippi, with a population of less than 3 million, has two P5 schools, both in the same conference.

Alabama, with a population of 4.6 million, has two P5 schools, both of them in the same conference.

Indiana, with a population of 6.3 million, has three P5 schools, but one of them of course is a perennial power whose partial P5 membership allows it to play football as an independent.

Georgia, with a population of 9.5 million, has two P5 schools.

South Carolina, with a population of 4.4 million, also has two P5 schools.

And Arizona, with a population of 6.4 million, has two P5 schools.

But Ohio, with a population of only 11.5 million, apparently isn't big enough for two P5 schools.

Conclusion: Contrary to the conventional wisdom, there's no correlation between any state's population and the number of P5 institutions which that state could profitably accommodate.

(04-13-2015 06:57 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 05:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 05:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  5. UConn in Hartford? - Bad Football/No Recruiting Area

UConn currently has bad football but a few years ago they would've beaten almost all of the ACC teams.

I've listed UConn's records below. The number in () is the number of ACC teams that season with a higher Sagarin rating.

2011-2014: Losing records
2010: 8-5, lost Fiesta Bowl (8 of 12)
2009: 8-5, won Papa John's Bowl (4 of 12)
2008: 8-5, won International Bowl (8 of 12)
2007: 9-4, lost Meinke Car Car Bowl (4 of 12)
2005-2006: Losing records

In summary, the computer numbers say they would have been a top half ACC team in 2007 and 2009. That's only twice in the last 10 seasons.

That's not to say there aren't other considerations that you mentioned for possible inclusion, but I don't view on the field performance as a positive in their favor.

My personal preference for the ACC is championship football game de-regulation and then add WVU as football #15 and let ND continue on its path of semi-independence.

But the one thing I would never, ever do is underestimate the ability of UConn to develop winning athletic programs given the right circumstances - even in football, with their supposed "disadvantages".

UConn ultimately going to the Big Ten, IF it were to come about, will likely prove to be a better addition than either Maryland or Rutgers were to them within the first decade of them being the conference.

I do agree with Hokie Mark who sees little impact to SU and BC were UConn to join the Big Ten, IF the ACC were to add WVU. Ultimately if this were to happen it is then Pitt, WVU, SU, and BC and ND as partial, versus PSU, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn.

The edge is to the Big Ten, but it's not a huge edge, in that scenario.

Cheers,
Neil

(04-14-2015 11:17 PM)omniorange Wrote:  if... UConn to join the Big Ten [and] the ACC were to add WVU... it is then Pitt, WVU, SU, and BC and ND as partial, versus PSU, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn.

The edge is to the Big Ten, but it's not a huge edge, in that scenario.

Cheers,
Neil

This scenario actually makes a lot of sense. It also brings the Backyard Brawl, the Ben Schwartzwalder Trophy, and the Black Diamond Trophy games all within the ACC (apparently every team loves to beat WVU - who knew?).

(04-15-2015 08:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:17 PM)omniorange Wrote:  if... UConn to join the Big Ten [and] the ACC were to add WVU... it is then Pitt, WVU, SU, and BC and ND as partial, versus PSU, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn.

The edge is to the Big Ten, but it's not a huge edge, in that scenario.

Cheers,
Neil

This scenario actually makes a lot of sense. It also brings the Backyard Brawl, the Ben Schwartzwalder Trophy, and the Black Diamond Trophy games all within the ACC (apparently every team loves to beat WVU - who knew?).

You would too if you had to play against them as a conference mate and deal with their unruly fans., OK you did.

I almost hate to know the answer.........are they really THAT bad?

(04-15-2015 12:05 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 08:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-14-2015 11:17 PM)omniorange Wrote:  if... UConn to join the Big Ten [and] the ACC were to add WVU... it is then Pitt, WVU, SU, and BC and ND as partial, versus PSU, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn.

The edge is to the Big Ten, but it's not a huge edge, in that scenario.

Cheers,
Neil

This scenario actually makes a lot of sense. It also brings the Backyard Brawl, the Ben Schwartzwalder Trophy, and the Black Diamond Trophy games all within the ACC (apparently every team loves to beat WVU - who knew?).

You would too if you had to play against them as a conference mate and deal with their unruly fans., OK you did.

I almost hate to know the answer.........are they really THAT bad?

No. It's far worse.

(04-14-2015 11:17 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 06:57 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 05:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-13-2015 05:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  5. UConn in Hartford? - Bad Football/No Recruiting Area

UConn currently has bad football but a few years ago they would've beaten almost all of the ACC teams.

I've listed UConn's records below. The number in () is the number of ACC teams that season with a higher Sagarin rating.

2011-2014: Losing records
2010: 8-5, lost Fiesta Bowl (8 of 12)
2009: 8-5, won Papa John's Bowl (4 of 12)
2008: 8-5, won International Bowl (8 of 12)
2007: 9-4, lost Meinke Car Car Bowl (4 of 12)
2005-2006: Losing records

In summary, the computer numbers say they would have been a top half ACC team in 2007 and 2009. That's only twice in the last 10 seasons.

That's not to say there aren't other considerations that you mentioned for possible inclusion, but I don't view on the field performance as a positive in their favor.

My personal preference for the ACC is championship football game de-regulation and then add WVU as football #15 and let ND continue on its path of semi-independence.

But the one thing I would never, ever do is underestimate the ability of UConn to develop winning athletic programs given the right circumstances - even in football, with their supposed "disadvantages".

UConn ultimately going to the Big Ten, IF it were to come about, will likely prove to be a better addition than either Maryland or Rutgers were to them within the first decade of them being the conference.

I do agree with Hokie Mark who sees little impact to SU and BC were UConn to join the Big Ten, IF the ACC were to add WVU. Ultimately if this were to happen it is then Pitt, WVU, SU, and BC and ND as partial, versus PSU, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn.

The edge is to the Big Ten, but it's not a huge edge, in that scenario.

Cheers,
Neil

I would be 100% for UConn as a non-football member. I am 100% against UConn as a football member.

If UConn ever decides to fold football and/or go indy, I think that they would make a fantastic addition and a slam dunk for the ACC. Ironically, that would probably be a better move for UConn than their current situation. I'm honestly somewhat amazed that it hasn't happened yet. They're a good school and the TV rights to UConn olympics & basketball is easily worth $4 million/yr (or whatever ND is getting) and they would be a net add for the ACC tourney and NCAA tourney. All of those positives are erased by the massive negative that is UConn football, but under the right conditions (i.e. no football - now or ever), it's stupid to not add UConn.