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NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #21
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  If I wanted to live in Bumf*ck, Egypt, I'd live in Bumf*ck, Egypt.

Isn't that code for Mississippi?
03-31-2015 12:57 PM
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fsquid Offline
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Post: #22
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:41 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:36 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:32 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:22 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It actually makes sense for a lot of states.

You have large wealthy urban areas while you still have largely destitute rural areas. The state needs to ensure growth from boarder to boarder, not just urban centers.

This is a solid piece of legislation.

Making such changes is no guarantee of growth. Besides in most states the metro areas already contribute a disproportionate amount of money to the GF that is used in the rural parts of the state via the DOT, DOE and rate controls for electricity.

No, but pumping money into grossly underdeveloped parts of the state isn't exactly a bad idea.

Deep down I don't like the idea. But have you SEEN Belhaven, NC? They don't even have a police department anymore.

how many live there? Maybe it is best served by the county sheriffs.
03-31-2015 12:57 PM
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shiftyeagle Offline
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Post: #23
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  If I wanted to live in Bumf*ck, Egypt, I'd live in Bumf*ck, Egypt.

Isn't that code for Mississippi?

The Mississippi Delta.
03-31-2015 01:00 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:48 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:28 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  So you think it's fair for people already paying a higher percentage of income tax to also be punished by paying more sales tax?

Let's not act like this is only going to affect the rich. This will, like most legislation, end up hurting the middle class more than anyone else.

It really has no implications in terms of class warfare. A quick search seems to show that the state income tax rate is flat, at 5.75%. So, as I said, it isn't a class issue. If anything this is a play on consumption tax.

It is urban v rural interests.

Most Republicans just can't think outside the class warfare box and see things in any other way.

If they want to have a consumption tax, then institute a consumption tax.

Such an absurd half-measure will have negative effects and possibly lead to folks taking their business elsewhere and population flight.

Yea, maybe they will move to other areas of the state. Wouldn't that just be awful?
People are moving to the cities. College graduates aren't going back home to rural communities in any large numbers. What is pumping money into these communities going to do other than help pay the bills for the people that are already on welfare? So far it hasn't worked and it hasn't stemmed the bleeding of rural communities. At what point do we have to just say it is a waste of time and focus on the economic engines of the state? Let the rural communities be farming communities. The commercial farmers do well for themselves, but there are far too many people just having around collecting a check every month because no company is ever going to invest money in their area.

NC spent tens of millions of dollars on an industrial park in eastern NC to try to lure in major manufacturers like Honda Jet, Boeing, or car manufacturers.

It most recently was in the running for a Boeing plant along with Charlotte and Greensboro. The state was offering 2-3x as much incentives to lure Boeing there as it was to Charlotte or Greensboro. Ultimately Boeing decided to put another operation in Charleston. Prior to that, it lost out on Honda Jet to Greensboro because Greensboro had a better workforce.

The facility in eastern NC has been a monumental failure and waste of tax dollars. Companies simply aren't going to locate somewhere that there isn't sufficient talent to do the work. When you're investing hundreds of millions, you're not going to a take a "if you build it they'll come" scenario. You need a workforce in place to pull from.


These rural counties already get a disproportionate amount of funding per capita and it hasn't changed their fortunes. A few million dollars more a year distributed to each of these counties isn't going to change things there, but it will change the lives of hundreds of thousands of property owners in the economic engines of the state.

Those areas aren't going to be the ones that see the greatest benefit though.

It is the areas right outside the current centers that are going to grow and benefit the state. The law will discourage over concentration in particular areas and thus people will move right next door, which is perfectly good and fine. In fact, that is a really good thing for the state and the communities.

Will money be wasted? Absolutely, I won't deny that. Pouring money into areas of the state that are hopeless is not a good investment. However, pouring money into counties directly surrounding major urban centers is a good investment. There is a lot to be gained by growing the footprint of these areas and spreading development into previously underdeveloped areas with potential.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 01:02 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
03-31-2015 01:00 PM
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Post: #25
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:57 PM)fsquid Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:41 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:36 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:32 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:22 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It actually makes sense for a lot of states.

You have large wealthy urban areas while you still have largely destitute rural areas. The state needs to ensure growth from boarder to boarder, not just urban centers.

This is a solid piece of legislation.

Making such changes is no guarantee of growth. Besides in most states the metro areas already contribute a disproportionate amount of money to the GF that is used in the rural parts of the state via the DOT, DOE and rate controls for electricity.

No, but pumping money into grossly underdeveloped parts of the state isn't exactly a bad idea.

Deep down I don't like the idea. But have you SEEN Belhaven, NC? They don't even have a police department anymore.

how many live there? Maybe it is best served by the county sheriffs.

1,688 people... I remember they had 2 police officers. Then they collapsed due to financial reasons, and now they're patrolled by the NCSHP.
03-31-2015 01:01 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:55 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  But that isn't exactly going to be the outcome.

As services improve in areas around affluent areas those people tend to spread out. If you can live in a town right outside of the city in which you work and enjoy the benefits associated with living in those places then many will.

The result will just be a spreading out of the population and in turn development across the entire state.

Will some very random and isolated areas get money? Yes. But, more importantly, areas around urban centers are going to develop to a far greater degree as residents move in, set up business, commute, etc. That is where the growth is at. Is it worth it to dump a few bucks in some backwater then? Sure.

At this point Atlanta's MSA might as well be all of North Georgia.
[Image: GAMET.gif~original]

What you describe in bold occurs as a natural consequence densification and and development. But that development is going to be uneven and will lead to large parts of many states being left behind economic 8-ball.
03-31-2015 01:13 PM
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #27
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 01:00 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:48 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It really has no implications in terms of class warfare. A quick search seems to show that the state income tax rate is flat, at 5.75%. So, as I said, it isn't a class issue. If anything this is a play on consumption tax.

It is urban v rural interests.

Most Republicans just can't think outside the class warfare box and see things in any other way.

If they want to have a consumption tax, then institute a consumption tax.

Such an absurd half-measure will have negative effects and possibly lead to folks taking their business elsewhere and population flight.

Yea, maybe they will move to other areas of the state. Wouldn't that just be awful?
People are moving to the cities. College graduates aren't going back home to rural communities in any large numbers. What is pumping money into these communities going to do other than help pay the bills for the people that are already on welfare? So far it hasn't worked and it hasn't stemmed the bleeding of rural communities. At what point do we have to just say it is a waste of time and focus on the economic engines of the state? Let the rural communities be farming communities. The commercial farmers do well for themselves, but there are far too many people just having around collecting a check every month because no company is ever going to invest money in their area.

NC spent tens of millions of dollars on an industrial park in eastern NC to try to lure in major manufacturers like Honda Jet, Boeing, or car manufacturers.

It most recently was in the running for a Boeing plant along with Charlotte and Greensboro. The state was offering 2-3x as much incentives to lure Boeing there as it was to Charlotte or Greensboro. Ultimately Boeing decided to put another operation in Charleston. Prior to that, it lost out on Honda Jet to Greensboro because Greensboro had a better workforce.

The facility in eastern NC has been a monumental failure and waste of tax dollars. Companies simply aren't going to locate somewhere that there isn't sufficient talent to do the work. When you're investing hundreds of millions, you're not going to a take a "if you build it they'll come" scenario. You need a workforce in place to pull from.


These rural counties already get a disproportionate amount of funding per capita and it hasn't changed their fortunes. A few million dollars more a year distributed to each of these counties isn't going to change things there, but it will change the lives of hundreds of thousands of property owners in the economic engines of the state.

Those areas aren't going to be the ones that see the greatest benefit though.

It is the areas right outside the current centers that are going to grow and benefit the state. The law will discourage over concentration in particular areas and thus people will move right next door, which is perfectly good and fine. In fact, that is a really good thing for the state and the communities.

Will money be wasted? Absolutely, I won't deny that. Pouring money into areas of the state that are hopeless is not a good investment. However, pouring money into counties directly surrounding major urban centers is a good investment. There is a lot to be gained by growing the footprint of these areas and spreading development into previously underdeveloped areas with potential.
I'll mostly agree with what you said, but let me give you one example of something that happened recently.

In Union County, a county just adjacent to Charlotte with extreme wealth was competing with Charlotte about 2-3 years ago for an outlet mall. Millions of dollars in sales tax revenue yearly. The city of Charlotte promised infrastructure upgrades to the area to help accommodate the shopping center and that played a role in the developers choosing Charlotte instead of Union County.

Now the city's investment to bring more commercial development to the area is going to be marginalized and that county that lost out will see one of the largest gains in sales tax redistribution under this system. I believe the number was a 146% increase. It's not fair that they have actively encouraged over development of residential structures (they have inadequate water supplies, sewage, and are struggling to pay for new schools because they've kept their taxes artificially low for years) and discouraged commercial development and now they're going to get millions of dollars in additional revenue.

They have the same advantages that any of the other counties adjacent to Charlotte have, but they have the worst commercial tax base of any county that touches Charlotte (Mecklenburg County) and a lack of major retail centers because they haven't wanted to "ruin" their communities.
03-31-2015 01:17 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #28
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:38 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:28 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:22 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It actually makes sense for a lot of states.

You have large wealthy urban areas while you still have largely destitute rural areas. The state needs to ensure growth from boarder to boarder, not just urban centers.

This is a solid piece of legislation.

So you think it's fair for people already paying a higher percentage of income tax to also be punished by paying more sales tax?

Let's not act like this is only going to affect the rich. This will, like most legislation, end up hurting the middle class more than anyone else.

It really has no implications in terms of class warfare. A quick search seems to show that the state income tax rate is flat, at 5.75%. So, as I said, it isn't a class issue. If anything this is a play on consumption tax.

It is urban v rural interests.

Most Republicans just can't think outside the class warfare box and see things in any other way.
It's not a solid piece of legislation because the cities/counties that lose a lot of money are going to suddenly have to make that revenue up in some other way.

What is going to happen is these counties that lose out are going to raise taxes to make up that revenue. How is that fair to the residents of those counties?

Should I get ****** over and see my tax bills rise hundreds of dollars because some **** stain county out in eastern North Carolina that is already a net taker from state funds can't take care of itself? Or in a closer to home example, there is a suburban county adjacent to Charlotte that has never had any interest in being anything more than a commuter community. Why should they be rewarded for encouraging huge population growth while discouraging commercial development inside their borders? It is a county with a ton of wealth (some of the richest communities in the state are in this county), but it has very low sales tax revenue because they have never been big on allowing commercial and retail investment. It's not even a rural county (part of it is). It has 212,000 people, the vast majority residing in the western half of the county.

These are generational (and possibly permanent) demographic shifts that are taking place right now. Throwing them a few extra million dollars a year isn't going to change their circumstances.

04-bow04-bow04-bow04-bow04-bow04-bow04-bow
03-31-2015 01:48 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #29
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Republicans are wolves in sheep's clothing. What a terrible, absurd idea.

Well, you were pretty close. Here's the clown that proposed this bill.

Quote:Outside of politics, Brown is an automobile dealer. He first ran for the North Carolina House as a Democrat in 2002, but was unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Brown...itician%29

And to quote Niner National, yes he represents "some **** stain county out in eastern North Carolina."
http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/m...District=6
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 01:53 PM by blunderbuss.)
03-31-2015 01:53 PM
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #30
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 01:53 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Republicans are wolves in sheep's clothing. What a terrible, absurd idea.

Well, you were pretty close. Here's the clown that proposed this bill.

Quote:Outside of politics, Brown is an automobile dealer. He first ran for the North Carolina House as a Democrat in 2002, but was unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Brown...itician%29

And to quote Niner National, yes he represents "some **** stain county out in eastern North Carolina."
http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/m...District=6
Interesting, but not surprising.

We've certainly seen some old school southern democrats change to "republicans" since Obama came into office.

My mom's side of the family was always southern democrats until "that ni**er" got elected. Now they claim to be republicans, but they're still just old school racist southern democrats.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 02:10 PM by Niner National.)
03-31-2015 01:57 PM
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200yrs2late Online
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Post: #31
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 01:01 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:57 PM)fsquid Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:41 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:36 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:32 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Making such changes is no guarantee of growth. Besides in most states the metro areas already contribute a disproportionate amount of money to the GF that is used in the rural parts of the state via the DOT, DOE and rate controls for electricity.

No, but pumping money into grossly underdeveloped parts of the state isn't exactly a bad idea.

Deep down I don't like the idea. But have you SEEN Belhaven, NC? They don't even have a police department anymore.

how many live there? Maybe it is best served by the county sheriffs.

1,688 people... I remember they had 2 police officers. Then they collapsed due to financial reasons, and now they're patrolled by the NCSHP.

Which works just fine. Belhaven is pretty much as close to nowhere as you can get and will never be a manufacturing or industrial complex. It's hunting and fishing guides, a few inland commercial fisherman, farmers, and small businesses. It is what it is going to be.
03-31-2015 02:17 PM
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Post: #32
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  If I wanted to live in Bumf*ck, Egypt, I'd live in Bumf*ck, Egypt.

but you don't necessarily 'shop' where you live.... and you don't pay sales tax on rent or utilities or groceries. What this CAN do is create 'shopping districts' which can hurt neighborhoods, other than 'convenience store' type places.

I don't really see that taking tax revenue from tourists voluntarily visiting an area and giving it to 'the whole state' is the same sort of wealth redistribution as say income taxes... which aren't in any way voluntary... I'm not saying it is defacto a good idea... I'd have to know more to comment more... I just don't see that this is anything more than someone trying to tie into a populist meme as opposed to presenting facts.

MANY states do something like have a mixed sales tax... i.e. the state collects 6% and does what it sees fit with it... The county might collect 1% to be used in the county and the city or local business district another 1% to be used locally. If an area doesn't want to have a local tax, they can be 1% cheaper than the big city... OR the state can mandate that the rate be 8% and the county just gets more money.
03-31-2015 02:35 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #33
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 01:13 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:55 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  But that isn't exactly going to be the outcome.

As services improve in areas around affluent areas those people tend to spread out. If you can live in a town right outside of the city in which you work and enjoy the benefits associated with living in those places then many will.

The result will just be a spreading out of the population and in turn development across the entire state.

Will some very random and isolated areas get money? Yes. But, more importantly, areas around urban centers are going to develop to a far greater degree as residents move in, set up business, commute, etc. That is where the growth is at. Is it worth it to dump a few bucks in some backwater then? Sure.

At this point Atlanta's MSA might as well be all of North Georgia.
[Image: GAMET.gif~original]

What you describe in bold occurs as a natural consequence densification and and development. But that development is going to be uneven and will lead to large parts of many states being left behind economic 8-ball.

*can

That can be the result but it is not guaranteed.

The law just makes it more likely that there will be a much more spread out pattern of development.
03-31-2015 04:43 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #34
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
(03-31-2015 01:17 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 01:00 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:56 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:48 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  If they want to have a consumption tax, then institute a consumption tax.

Such an absurd half-measure will have negative effects and possibly lead to folks taking their business elsewhere and population flight.

Yea, maybe they will move to other areas of the state. Wouldn't that just be awful?
People are moving to the cities. College graduates aren't going back home to rural communities in any large numbers. What is pumping money into these communities going to do other than help pay the bills for the people that are already on welfare? So far it hasn't worked and it hasn't stemmed the bleeding of rural communities. At what point do we have to just say it is a waste of time and focus on the economic engines of the state? Let the rural communities be farming communities. The commercial farmers do well for themselves, but there are far too many people just having around collecting a check every month because no company is ever going to invest money in their area.

NC spent tens of millions of dollars on an industrial park in eastern NC to try to lure in major manufacturers like Honda Jet, Boeing, or car manufacturers.

It most recently was in the running for a Boeing plant along with Charlotte and Greensboro. The state was offering 2-3x as much incentives to lure Boeing there as it was to Charlotte or Greensboro. Ultimately Boeing decided to put another operation in Charleston. Prior to that, it lost out on Honda Jet to Greensboro because Greensboro had a better workforce.

The facility in eastern NC has been a monumental failure and waste of tax dollars. Companies simply aren't going to locate somewhere that there isn't sufficient talent to do the work. When you're investing hundreds of millions, you're not going to a take a "if you build it they'll come" scenario. You need a workforce in place to pull from.


These rural counties already get a disproportionate amount of funding per capita and it hasn't changed their fortunes. A few million dollars more a year distributed to each of these counties isn't going to change things there, but it will change the lives of hundreds of thousands of property owners in the economic engines of the state.

Those areas aren't going to be the ones that see the greatest benefit though.

It is the areas right outside the current centers that are going to grow and benefit the state. The law will discourage over concentration in particular areas and thus people will move right next door, which is perfectly good and fine. In fact, that is a really good thing for the state and the communities.

Will money be wasted? Absolutely, I won't deny that. Pouring money into areas of the state that are hopeless is not a good investment. However, pouring money into counties directly surrounding major urban centers is a good investment. There is a lot to be gained by growing the footprint of these areas and spreading development into previously underdeveloped areas with potential.
I'll mostly agree with what you said, but let me give you one example of something that happened recently.

In Union County, a county just adjacent to Charlotte with extreme wealth was competing with Charlotte about 2-3 years ago for an outlet mall. Millions of dollars in sales tax revenue yearly. The city of Charlotte promised infrastructure upgrades to the area to help accommodate the shopping center and that played a role in the developers choosing Charlotte instead of Union County.

Now the city's investment to bring more commercial development to the area is going to be marginalized and that county that lost out will see one of the largest gains in sales tax redistribution under this system. I believe the number was a 146% increase. It's not fair that they have actively encouraged over development of residential structures (they have inadequate water supplies, sewage, and are struggling to pay for new schools because they've kept their taxes artificially low for years) and discouraged commercial development and now they're going to get millions of dollars in additional revenue.

They have the same advantages that any of the other counties adjacent to Charlotte have, but they have the worst commercial tax base of any county that touches Charlotte (Mecklenburg County) and a lack of major retail centers because they haven't wanted to "ruin" their communities.

I am not sure I see your point.

You won't see a miracle on every play. You will however see a net gain.
03-31-2015 04:45 PM
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Post: #35
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
I grew up on the coast in NC where nearly everyone works for the money based on a well established tourism economy. Raising sales tax in those areas is NOT a good idea. It may not result in a loss of tourism, but it will mostly hurt the locals that live there year round. Tourism in that area usually runs from June through August. The majority of people there live paycheck to paycheck, friday to friday. Life is not easy at all for the majority of the locals. Gas prices are absurd there. Sales taxes are already at higher rates than the rest of the state thanks to the tourism economy, and raising them only allows the state to tighten their grips on the necks of the locals further choking the money right out of them.

It bothers me to my core when I hear people say, "Oh they can afford to be taxed more thanks to the wonderful tourism economy there." Coastal NC isn't Hawaii. If you don't know the difference, travel to the Outer Banks in October/November through April/May and notice the difference between that and the summer months.
03-31-2015 08:40 PM
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Post: #36
RE: NC Republicans Pushing Wealth Redistribution Legislation
Relatively small amounts of money spent in underdeveloped areas can lead to far larger growth than spending it in already well-developed areas. Man, for all the chest thumping about wanting government to run like a business, you sure want to enact inefficient limitations based on arbitrary lines drawn on a map.
03-31-2015 09:52 PM
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