(03-25-2015 12:30 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm not saying that depending on your specific circumstances you can't graduate debt free. It's possible to do so maybe if you worked 4 jobs and live at home and ate dinner with your parents and had your mom do your laundry and didn't buy books and never went to the bars (and got your first year paid for). If that's your case then I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately not everyone can do that, or handle it with a full courseload and make it.

How is the demand "unsupported"? Decades ago there was full employment and everyone who went to college could find a job. The problem is a lack of jobs, not a glut of education. Kids today know that their lifetime earning potential is far better as a college grad than not and many of the best employers won't give you an interview if you don't have one, so naturally they want a degree. It's not fair to cut off an opportunity to millions of kids that was available for previous generations because you want a tax cut or hold some subconscious grudge against the frat guys from your college days who didn't partake in your spartan lifestyle.

There's the issue. Life isn't fair, never has been.

(03-25-2015 12:54 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:30 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm not saying that depending on your specific circumstances you can't graduate debt free. It's possible to do so maybe if you worked 4 jobs and live at home and ate dinner with your parents and had your mom do your laundry and didn't buy books and never went to the bars (and got your first year paid for). If that's your case then I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately not everyone can do that, or handle it with a full courseload and make it.

How is the demand "unsupported"? Decades ago there was full employment and everyone who went to college could find a job. The problem is a lack of jobs, not a glut of education. Kids today know that their lifetime earning potential is far better as a college grad than not and many of the best employers won't give you an interview if you don't have one, so naturally they want a degree. It's not fair to cut off an opportunity to millions of kids that was available for previous generations because you want a tax cut or hold some subconscious grudge against the frat guys from your college days who didn't partake in your spartan lifestyle.

There's the issue. Life isn't fair, never has been.

You think Max cried when his little league team finished last and he wasn't awarded a trophy?

(03-25-2015 12:54 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:30 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm not saying that depending on your specific circumstances you can't graduate debt free. It's possible to do so maybe if you worked 4 jobs and live at home and ate dinner with your parents and had your mom do your laundry and didn't buy books and never went to the bars (and got your first year paid for). If that's your case then I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately not everyone can do that, or handle it with a full courseload and make it.

How is the demand "unsupported"? Decades ago there was full employment and everyone who went to college could find a job. The problem is a lack of jobs, not a glut of education. Kids today know that their lifetime earning potential is far better as a college grad than not and many of the best employers won't give you an interview if you don't have one, so naturally they want a degree. It's not fair to cut off an opportunity to millions of kids that was available for previous generations because you want a tax cut or hold some subconscious grudge against the frat guys from your college days who didn't partake in your spartan lifestyle.

There's the issue. Life isn't fair, never has been.

But everyone deserves a trophy though right?

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(03-25-2015 12:30 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm not saying that depending on your specific circumstances you can't graduate debt free. It's possible to do so maybe if you worked 4 jobs and live at home and ate dinner with your parents and had your mom do your laundry and didn't buy books and never went to the bars (and got your first year paid for). If that's your case then I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately not everyone can do that, or handle it with a full courseload and make it.
How is the demand "unsupported"? Decades ago there was full employment and everyone who went to college could find a job. The problem is a lack of jobs, not a glut of education. Kids today know that their lifetime earning potential is far better as a college grad than not and many of the best employers won't give you an interview if you don't have one, so naturally they want a degree. It's not fair to cut off an opportunity to millions of kids that was available for previous generations because you want a tax cut or hold some subconscious grudge against the frat guys from your college days who didn't partake in your spartan lifestyle.

Points of error:
1. Life isn't fair. Never has been. Never will be. Isn't meant to be.
2. Decades ago, everyone who went to university could find a job because there weren't nearly as many people going to university.
3. Decades ago, we were an economy that made things and exported them. University graduates got the management jobs, those who didn't got the production jobs. We had an upper class (management), a middle class (production), and a lower class (admin/retail). Today we are a retail/service economy. We don't have as many production jobs as we once did. We have an upper class (management) and a lower class (admin/retail). University graduates do better as a group because they still get the high-paying management jobs, and the excess spill over to the retail/admin jobs. But there aren't enough of those jobs to utilize the entire population of university graduates, and the excess spill over into the retail/admin jobs or unemployment. Getting a university decree that does not equip one for a high-paying job is not an opportunity.

We would do better tracking children starting in about junior high, and putting the ones who aren't university material on a vocational track early on. They would make more money, have more opportunity, and almost certainly enjoy life more. And for the university crowd, your barber would know how to cut hair and your mechanic would know how to fix cars. This requires a substantial upgrading of our vocational education from where it is today, including additional years of training to at least the level of an Associates degree.

(03-25-2015 12:30 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm not saying that depending on your specific circumstances you can't graduate debt free. It's possible to do so maybe if you worked 4 jobs and live at home and ate dinner with your parents and had your mom do your laundry and didn't buy books and never went to the bars (and got your first year paid for). If that's your case then I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately not everyone can do that, or handle it with a full courseload and make it.

How is the demand "unsupported"? Decades ago there was full employment and everyone who went to college could find a job. The problem is a lack of jobs, not a glut of education. Kids today know that their lifetime earning potential is far better as a college grad than not and many of the best employers won't give you an interview if you don't have one, so naturally they want a degree. It's not fair to cut off an opportunity to millions of kids that was available for previous generations because you want a tax cut or hold some subconscious grudge against the frat guys from your college days who didn't partake in your spartan lifestyle.

We can argue back and forth on the idea of 'full employment' and what that means in relation to women joining the potential workforce. But the truth of the matter was that NOT everyone went to college because it was assumed that college would only be for a small segment of the population. Everyone else would either enter the plant floor or would remain on the farm.

The demand that I referred to came from students' desire that college find a place for them which led to an explosion of the university systems of many states in the 70's and 80's. This demand was coupled with the elimination of vocational education in high school under the delusion that a college degree would result in higher lifetime earnings. But such is not the case if you major in Medieval Studies or some other non-critical degree program that the market wasn't seeking. Thus a degree has morphed into a credential, one which does not retain the value it used to because getting one in no way means that graduate possesses to skills necessary for employment.

Your lament of feeling sorry for those who decided that minimized and/or ensured they got a degree with no debt is insightful. It's you feel those those who made such sacrifices didn't get to enjoy the 'college experience'. That meme has also increased college cost since many freshman who are unprepared for the course work view college as a transitional phase from teenager to adulthood where they can made decision yet not be accountable for them. So schools spend funds on titillations for the students like new dorms, interesting activities and college athletics instead of reducing costs.

(03-25-2015 11:21 AM)Pigs N Heat BBQ Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:13 AM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread: Baby boomer Republicans who attended college for pennies on the dollar (or for free on the GI bill) in the 1960s and 70s and could get multiple career offers with a sociology degree straight out of college now take to lecturing young people about college being a scam and push for higher education cuts in every state they hold power because they're afraid of paying more taxes so they won't be able to afford another Jet ski.

Republicans for the past 50 years have raised taxes on lower- and middle-class people (and cut services) to compensate for lower taxes for the rich and big business. You can argue that it helps the economy, but there's literally no evidence to support that (in fact all the evidence says the exact opposite because consumer spending is the driver of our economy and young adults spend a far greater percentage of their income than the billionaires Republicans so try to protect) and further, if conservatives are proud of the strategy and think it works, they shouldn't need to cloak and obfuscate it to such a high degree.

You do know people can work and pay their way through college even today. It took me 5 years to get my degree but I graduated debt free. It wasn't easy to go to work every Friday night and Saturday morning while my friends were at the bar but I made a choice to stay debt free and not take out loans. The people who took those loans have to pay it back. Consider that life lesson 101.

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Unheard of! To think of it, work? During skrool?!?

I threw pizzas Friday night, Saturday days and Sunday mornings, as well as one or two nights per week. During Summers I often worked 3 different jobs and put in 100 hours a week to have money to return to school with. Worked all through Grad school and came away from all of it with ZERO debt. Parents did help with tuition, but not a lot else as far as expenses.

It can be done, and this wasn't 60's, 70's or even all 80's. It also isn't making $3.25 an hour where a 100 week nets you 275 bucks. It's now 7, 8, even 9+ bucks an hour to work as a lifeguard or man the register at the local Sheetz.

But, no. Work is hard. And as we all now know, college kids shouldn't have to "work".

(03-25-2015 11:49 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Xers are Boomer bootlickers. College costs didn't really spike until the last 15 years and by the time the recession hit they-- even the philosophy majors-- were firmly entrenched in the corporate structure so they had it pretty good too.

Unless you went to community college or had generous scholarships I find it hard to believe that you graduated with no debt whatsoever. If so I congratulate your state for appreciating the importance of funding higher education.

My, my. It's gotta be awfully miserable living life so angry all the time.

Who do you blame the rest of your life's ills on? Mommy and Daddy not hug you enough? hahaha. Wow.

(03-25-2015 01:09 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:21 AM)Pigs N Heat BBQ Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:13 AM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread: Baby boomer Republicans who attended college for pennies on the dollar (or for free on the GI bill) in the 1960s and 70s and could get multiple career offers with a sociology degree straight out of college now take to lecturing young people about college being a scam and push for higher education cuts in every state they hold power because they're afraid of paying more taxes so they won't be able to afford another Jet ski.

Republicans for the past 50 years have raised taxes on lower- and middle-class people (and cut services) to compensate for lower taxes for the rich and big business. You can argue that it helps the economy, but there's literally no evidence to support that (in fact all the evidence says the exact opposite because consumer spending is the driver of our economy and young adults spend a far greater percentage of their income than the billionaires Republicans so try to protect) and further, if conservatives are proud of the strategy and think it works, they shouldn't need to cloak and obfuscate it to such a high degree.

You do know people can work and pay their way through college even today. It took me 5 years to get my degree but I graduated debt free. It wasn't easy to go to work every Friday night and Saturday morning while my friends were at the bar but I made a choice to stay debt free and not take out loans. The people who took those loans have to pay it back. Consider that life lesson 101.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Unheard of! To think of it, work? During skrool?!?

I threw pizzas Friday night, Saturday days and Sunday mornings, as well as one or two nights per week. During Summers I often worked 3 different jobs and put in 100 hours a week to have money to return to school with. Worked all through Grad school and came away from all of it with ZERO debt. Parents did help with tuition, but not a lot else as far as expenses.

It can be done, and this wasn't 60's, 70's or even all 80's. It also isn't making $3.25 an hour where a 100 week nets you 275 bucks. It's now 7, 8, even 9+ bucks an hour to work as a lifeguard or man the register at the local Sheetz.

But, no. Work is hard. And as we all now know, college kids shouldn't have to "work".

If it makes you feel better Max feels sorry for you. I know it brightened my day

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

In this thread now: Baby boomers and gen xers who invented the idea of giving every kid a trophy bash millenials for accepting the trophies given to them. Then they justify taking away from millenials the opportunities afforded to their generations because they want tax cuts err I mean "life's not fair!"

And it's not true that more people are going to college now.



Again, the problem is a lack of high paying jobs, not a glut of education. The economy is getting fixed thankfully. The managerial white collar jobs are available only for college graduates, and people should be given the opportunity to shoot for them. And yes, millions of them majored in something many on here would consider useless, but without having checked that degree box they wouldn't have gotten their foot in the door.

A whole generation got to attend college for free via the GI bill post WWII and through Vietnam. That's what led to the postsecondary explosion and why we have so much access. Access that the GOP wants to tear down. For tax cuts.

I agree the "arms races" between colleges is a problem that contributes to the high tuition costs and should be addressed. But that's not the issue here.

(03-25-2015 01:19 PM)Pigs N Heat BBQ Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:09 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:21 AM)Pigs N Heat BBQ Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:13 AM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread: Baby boomer Republicans who attended college for pennies on the dollar (or for free on the GI bill) in the 1960s and 70s and could get multiple career offers with a sociology degree straight out of college now take to lecturing young people about college being a scam and push for higher education cuts in every state they hold power because they're afraid of paying more taxes so they won't be able to afford another Jet ski.

Republicans for the past 50 years have raised taxes on lower- and middle-class people (and cut services) to compensate for lower taxes for the rich and big business. You can argue that it helps the economy, but there's literally no evidence to support that (in fact all the evidence says the exact opposite because consumer spending is the driver of our economy and young adults spend a far greater percentage of their income than the billionaires Republicans so try to protect) and further, if conservatives are proud of the strategy and think it works, they shouldn't need to cloak and obfuscate it to such a high degree.

You do know people can work and pay their way through college even today. It took me 5 years to get my degree but I graduated debt free. It wasn't easy to go to work every Friday night and Saturday morning while my friends were at the bar but I made a choice to stay debt free and not take out loans. The people who took those loans have to pay it back. Consider that life lesson 101.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Unheard of! To think of it, work? During skrool?!?

I threw pizzas Friday night, Saturday days and Sunday mornings, as well as one or two nights per week. During Summers I often worked 3 different jobs and put in 100 hours a week to have money to return to school with. Worked all through Grad school and came away from all of it with ZERO debt. Parents did help with tuition, but not a lot else as far as expenses.

It can be done, and this wasn't 60's, 70's or even all 80's. It also isn't making $3.25 an hour where a 100 week nets you 275 bucks. It's now 7, 8, even 9+ bucks an hour to work as a lifeguard or man the register at the local Sheetz.

But, no. Work is hard. And as we all now know, college kids shouldn't have to "work".

If it makes you feel better Max feels sorry for you. I know it brightened my day

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Well, there is that. So that's kinda nice.

Probably another "Social Justice" major.

(03-25-2015 01:26 PM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread now: Baby boomers and gen xers who invented the idea of giving every kid a trophy bash millenials for accepting the trophies given to them. Then they justify taking away from millenials the opportunities afforded to their generations because they want tax cuts err I mean "life's not fair!"

And it's not true that more people are going to college now.



Again, the problem is a lack of high paying jobs, not a glut of education. The economy is getting fixed thankfully. The managerial white collar jobs are available only for college graduates, and people should be given the opportunity to shoot for them. And yes, millions of them majored in something many on here would consider useless, but without having checked that degree box they wouldn't have gotten their foot in the door.

A whole generation got to attend college for free via the GI bill post WWII and through Vietnam. That's what led to the postsecondary explosion and why we have so much access. Access that the GOP wants to tear down. For tax cuts.

I agree the "arms races" between colleges is a problem that contributes to the high tuition costs and should be addressed. But that's not the issue here.

You think those that attended on the GI bill after WWII and Vietnam got that for "free"? Yet feel sorry for those who worked while in college?

My God, we're effing doomed.

(03-25-2015 01:26 PM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread now: Baby boomers and gen xers who invented the idea of giving every kid a trophy bash millenials for accepting the trophies given to them. Then they justify taking away from millenials the opportunities afforded to their generations because they want tax cuts err I mean "life's not fair!"

And it's not true that more people are going to college now.



Again, the problem is a lack of high paying jobs, not a glut of education. The economy is getting fixed thankfully. The managerial white collar jobs are available only for college graduates, and people should be given the opportunity to shoot for them. And yes, millions of them majored in something many on here would consider useless, but without having checked that degree box they wouldn't have gotten their foot in the door.

A whole generation got to attend college for free via the GI bill post WWII and through Vietnam. That's what led to the postsecondary explosion and why we have so much access. Access that the GOP wants to tear down. For tax cuts.

I agree the "arms races" between colleges is a problem that contributes to the high tuition costs and should be addressed. But that's not the issue here.

I'm pretty sure the graph you selected doesn't mean what you think it means.



The GI Bill still exists and if someone has a problem with military service they always join the Coast Guard. You are also conflating high paying jobs and managerial jobs by stating that you think that such employment is the only kind of merit along with the elitist notion that college grads can't be electricians, plumbers and welders.

(03-25-2015 01:26 PM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread now: Baby boomers and gen xers who invented the idea of giving every kid a trophy bash millenials for accepting the trophies given to them. Then they justify taking away from millenials the opportunities afforded to their generations because they want tax cuts err I mean "life's not fair!"

And it's not true that more people are going to college now.



Again, the problem is a lack of high paying jobs, not a glut of education. The economy is getting fixed thankfully. The managerial white collar jobs are available only for college graduates, and people should be given the opportunity to shoot for them. And yes, millions of them majored in something many on here would consider useless, but without having checked that degree box they wouldn't have gotten their foot in the door.

A whole generation got to attend college for free via the GI bill post WWII and through Vietnam. That's what led to the postsecondary explosion and why we have so much access. Access that the GOP wants to tear down. For tax cuts.

I agree the "arms races" between colleges is a problem that contributes to the high tuition costs and should be addressed. But that's not the issue here.

But that is is exactly the cause of the issue. "should be addressed" - how do you propose to address the cause? I wonder if unlimited credit flooding the education market helps push all those prices upward. Maybe pulling higher ed's mouth off the teat of student borrowed cash will put pressure on the cost side of it.

(03-25-2015 11:13 AM)Max Power Wrote:  In this thread: Baby boomer Republicans who attended college for pennies on the dollar (or for free on the GI bill) in the 1960s and 70s and could get multiple career offers with a sociology degree straight out of college now take to lecturing young people about college being a scam and push for higher education cuts in every state they hold power because they're afraid of paying more taxes so they won't be able to afford another Jet ski.

You forgot folks like me who's parents both grew up dirt poor, who didn't get a financial handout from them and paid their way through trade school and then paid their way through university via a trade. I'm in this thread too.

A lot of clowns like yourself have no concept of what it means to REALLY sacrifice to get somewhere in life on your own. Instead, you expect the gov't to step in and help you in some way, shape or form and when it doesn't happen, it's somehow ALWAYS the conservative parties fault. Other folks here have hit the nail directly on the head while you continue to miss the point over and over and over again on education threads. The LAST thing we need is more kids going to school for 4 year degrees. We're about to get hit square in the face with a shortage in the technical fields. A perfect example is engineering technicians and land surveyors - how I paid my way through school. The average PLS is ~60 in North Carolina for example. The mindset that everyone should have or is cut out for a 4 year degree is leftist, educator propaganda and nothing more.

I'd love to know what you do for a living. I'd be more than willing to bet you're in education.

In Texas, you can go to a community college your first two years for a total of $3,500. With books, maybe the total is $6,000 at the very most.

Then you can go to a good public school (Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, North Texas, Texas State) for your last two years for another $35,000 (tuition, room, and board). That's about $41,000 for a bachelors degree.

If someone were to get some money from their parents, work a little, and then take out a loan for the rest, they'd be in good shape. That is not a crushing amount of debt.

But I have no sympathy if you want to go to an Ivy League school paid by taxpayer funded loans.