I began thinking about this as I was weighing just how important Conference tourneys are, and for that matter the Dance. I mean, in a conference tourney, you could be Champ by playing as few as 3 of your fellow conference mates. Whereas in the Dance, it's 6, unless you play in the play in games, then 7.

Compared to the regular season, where you are playing all of your conference brethren, whether once or twice, it does seem a more thorough evaluator. Albeit different than a tourney, obviously.

And then I got to thinking about some of those old-timey National Champs that some schools claim ala football Nat. Titles, that were based on a season's performance, from days of yore .... and it got me thinking, why not name a regular season National Champion in hoops?

Now, the fascinating feature of this is that you cannot just take final records. Obviously schools would load up on cupcakes, what have you. You would really need to take into account opponent strength, home-away-neutral venues... maybe points scored, all kinds of other stats and it would be fun because you would need to go thru all manner of data along the lines of how you try to determine the 'All-Time' programs.

It wouldn't be perfect, frankly not many things are really. But what do people think of this: is this as worthy (as fun!), As I think it could be? Or a dud?

Edit: and you know, something else that I really hadn't considered, but which is quite vital amidst discussions of the value of hardwood/gridiron... would this make the regular season more valuable?

Isn't that done effectively by the polls?

Nobody cares about the polls. The only way to do this IMO is to have the tourney dispersed throughout the season. Take Champions League for example. Seed the tourney based on previous years standings and tourney history at least for the inaugural season. Then have the conference tourney dispersed throughout the year. The national champ is basically your regular season champ, and then you have the other tournaments dispersed throughout the year. The Final Four could still happen the last weekend of the season, but the current year's games and standings have no bearing on who plays there.

Otherwise the regular season will remain farcical aside from these once in a blue moon teams that run the table and achieve the perfect season.

Every school that plays D-I ball is automatically included in this. Base it on an even 30 games, if you play one or two more-- then you can drop your lowest scores (i.e., losses or other very low point total). But there are 30 places that need to have a # value. You run it from the start of the season -- until the end of conference play and the winner is announced between the end of regular season play and beginning of the conference tourneys.

No one is obligated to schedule in any way they don't like, you can schedule a bunch of bunnies, or a really tough non-con. But everyone is automatically in. There should be no negative values tho-- if beating Uk is 10 points (for example), and the #300 team in the country is 1 point, then if you lose to either, you don't get points taken away, you just get zero points.

This is something I've actually thought about for a long time. Basketball already has regular season/tournament conference champs so why not national ones? The NCAA Tournament is a blast, but frankly in a lot of ways it is a terrible way to crown a champion (paths often not anywhere close to even and giving many teams a chance who weren't close to the best in the regular season).

It might be really neat to crown the AP/Coaches # 1 team at the end of the regular season as regular season national champs (you could have more than 1 some years). That would certainly put more on the line for the top seeds at the end of the year than just seeding. The Tournament would still be the more prestigious crown, but the regular season crown would be interesting enough to help me at least watch other conferences before the tourney.

An alternative would be to take the top 2 or 4 and have them play a game/smaller tournament before the NCAA Tournament. I think the scheduling issues would be too great with that though and think they'd want to avoid that to avoid possible rematches as well.

(03-21-2015 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  I began thinking about this as I was weighing just how important Conference tourneys are, and for that matter the Dance. I mean, in a conference tourney, you could be Champ by playing as few as 3 of your fellow conference mates. Whereas in the Dance, it's 6, unless you play in the play in games, then 7.

Compared to the regular season, where you are playing all of your conference brethren, whether once or twice, it does seem a more thorough evaluator. Albeit different than a tourney, obviously.

And then I got to thinking about some of those old-timey National Champs that some schools claim ala football Nat. Titles, that were based on a season's performance, from days of yore .... and it got me thinking, why not name a regular season National Champion in hoops?

Now, the fascinating feature of this is that you cannot just take final records. Obviously schools would load up on cupcakes, what have you. You would really need to take into account opponent strength, home-away-neutral venues... maybe points scored, all kinds of other stats and it would be fun because you would need to go thru all manner of data along the lines of how you try to determine the 'All-Time' programs.

It wouldn't be perfect, frankly not many things are really. But what do people think of this: is this as worthy (as fun!), As I think it could be? Or a dud?

Edit: and you know, something else that I really hadn't considered, but which is quite vital amidst discussions of the value of hardwood/gridiron... would this make the regular season more valuable?

I say go for it it. Some shoe salesman did it in the fifties and a few schools even bought into it to the extent of hanging banners in their basketball arenas to commemorate the shoe salesman's "championship award." I know, it's pathetic. I'd be morbidly embarrassed if my school did that, but there is probably some money to be made today from the idea (besides licensing). There are a lot of shameless and desperate people out there, the Crimsonelf Trophy could be a big hit. I think the best way to monetize it is to have the schools bid on the criteria.

^

Whereas Duke can hang up real banners. We'd be able to as well If not for Jim Valvano and John Wooden, among others.

I wouldn't see this as any less real. It wouldn't hold the prestiege, but that wouldn't mean it was shameless either. The post-season is great, but it's about runs. Regular season accomplishments are way under-emphasized in basketball and this would be a way to push them up a bit more.

This wouldn't replace the NCAA Tournament championship just be a sublement which is pretty much the way I look at the Big Ten Tournament right now (just in reverse). The Big Ten champ(s) is the regular season winner. The tournament is a fun activity later that you can hang a banner up with if you win. For this, the tournament might be the bigger prize, but there is still something at stake with finishing the regular season #1 beyond seeding (which is hit or miss anyway).

If Kentucky goes to the title game and loses to, say, Duke, then could they still finish first in the post-tournament coaches' poll? Kentucky and Wichita State got first-place votes after last season.

(03-22-2015 02:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  If Kentucky goes to the title game and loses to, say, Duke, then could they still finish first in the post-tournament coaches' poll? Kentucky and Wichita State got first-place votes after last season.

I'd vote them in that senario. Whomever wins the tournament is the national champions, but the poll shouldn't automatically follow the tournament imo. I've long been of the belief that tournament games are way over-emphasized in the final college basketball polls and think winning in itself isn't neccearily enough to mean you deserve to be #1. It's a big accomplishment, but not necessarily enough to push past another team if that team otherwise has far superior accomplishments.

(03-22-2015 01:20 AM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 03:09 AM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  I began thinking about this as I was weighing just how important Conference tourneys are, and for that matter the Dance. I mean, in a conference tourney, you could be Champ by playing as few as 3 of your fellow conference mates. Whereas in the Dance, it's 6, unless you play in the play in games, then 7.

Compared to the regular season, where you are playing all of your conference brethren, whether once or twice, it does seem a more thorough evaluator. Albeit different than a tourney, obviously.

And then I got to thinking about some of those old-timey National Champs that some schools claim ala football Nat. Titles, that were based on a season's performance, from days of yore .... and it got me thinking, why not name a regular season National Champion in hoops?

Now, the fascinating feature of this is that you cannot just take final records. Obviously schools would load up on cupcakes, what have you. You would really need to take into account opponent strength, home-away-neutral venues... maybe points scored, all kinds of other stats and it would be fun because you would need to go thru all manner of data along the lines of how you try to determine the 'All-Time' programs.

It wouldn't be perfect, frankly not many things are really. But what do people think of this: is this as worthy (as fun!), As I think it could be? Or a dud?

Edit: and you know, something else that I really hadn't considered, but which is quite vital amidst discussions of the value of hardwood/gridiron... would this make the regular season more valuable?

I say go for it it. Some shoe salesman did it in the fifties and a few schools even bought into it to the extent of hanging banners in their basketball arenas to commemorate the shoe salesman's "championship award." I know, it's pathetic. I'd be morbidly embarrassed if my school did that, but there is probably some money to be made today from the idea (besides licensing). There are a lot of shameless and desperate people out there, the Crimsonelf Trophy could be a big hit. I think the best way to monetize it is to have the schools bid on the criteria.

Incredible! No one has ever suggested a trophy named after ... Moi??

(03-21-2015 11:11 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  This is something I've actually thought about for a long time. Basketball already has regular season/tournament conference champs so why not national ones? The NCAA Tournament is a blast, but frankly in a lot of ways it is a terrible way to crown a champion (paths often not anywhere close to even and giving many teams a chance who weren't close to the best in the regular season).

It might be really neat to crown the AP/Coaches # 1 team at the end of the regular season as regular season national champs (you could have more than 1 some years). That would certainly put more on the line for the top seeds at the end of the year than just seeding. The Tournament would still be the more prestigious crown, but the regular season crown would be interesting enough to help me at least watch other conferences before the tourney.

An alternative would be to take the top 2 or 4 and have them play a game/smaller tournament before the NCAA Tournament. I think the scheduling issues would be too great with that though and think they'd want to avoid that to avoid possible rematches as well.

I kind of don't like the AP/Poll idea for crowning a champ. I know football did that forever ... but I'd still rather have actual measurables, w/ point values attached, and have these added up at the conclusion of each regular season.

Having said that, the Poll result isn't the worst thing in the world, just more arbitrary.

Great input, tho-- I just think the regular season could be maybe marketed better, on top of the 'Thrill of the Chase' for a title. It's another chance to win something, yeah, but I think it's legit. I mean what is the purpose of the conference tourney. Well, for some a means to get in the Dance, sure. But also another chance to win a trophy.

It's difficult sometimes to get how so many people down the regular season in college hoops. Where I come from it is hugely popular, and I think you'd agree that mostly throughout B1G country it is as well.

(03-22-2015 08:37 PM)Crimsonelf Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 11:11 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  This is something I've actually thought about for a long time. Basketball already has regular season/tournament conference champs so why not national ones? The NCAA Tournament is a blast, but frankly in a lot of ways it is a terrible way to crown a champion (paths often not anywhere close to even and giving many teams a chance who weren't close to the best in the regular season).

It might be really neat to crown the AP/Coaches # 1 team at the end of the regular season as regular season national champs (you could have more than 1 some years). That would certainly put more on the line for the top seeds at the end of the year than just seeding. The Tournament would still be the more prestigious crown, but the regular season crown would be interesting enough to help me at least watch other conferences before the tourney.

An alternative would be to take the top 2 or 4 and have them play a game/smaller tournament before the NCAA Tournament. I think the scheduling issues would be too great with that though and think they'd want to avoid that to avoid possible rematches as well.

I kind of don't like the AP/Poll idea for crowning a champ. I know football did that forever ... but I'd still rather have actual measurables, w/ point values attached, and have these added up at the conclusion of each regular season.

Having said that, the Poll result isn't the worst thing in the world, just more arbitrary.

Great input, tho-- I just think the regular season could be maybe marketed better, on top of the 'Thrill of the Chase' for a title. It's another chance to win something, yeah, but I think it's legit. I mean what is the purpose of the conference tourney. Well, for some a means to get in the Dance, sure. But also another chance to win a trophy.

It's difficult sometimes to get how so many people down the regular season in college hoops. Where I come from it is hugely popular, and I think you'd agree that mostly throughout B1G country it is as well.

I'd definitely be on board for some different way than polls. It's basketball so a formula kind of makes sense.

In basketball's popularity, yes and no. Around here (Columbus, Ohio), there are a ton of casual basketball fans no doubt and Ohio State basketball attendance has always been good. That said, the sport feels very regional in the regular season.

What I mean by regional is there just isn't that much talk about national games in the regular season. A lot of people will follow the Big Ten race, sometimes other Ohio teams, and occasionally a Duke/North Carolina game or something like that rises to the level of discussion. I work in a very public place though and I just don't hear much more in depth than that all that often. You do in football, but not in basketball.

My thought with a regular season champion is that it would get people talking more about the season in general before the tournament, especially if Ohio State was in contention.

I think if it's something that is prestigious, has enough people/power behind it to have gravitas from the get-go... then it could be something that people would follow more. Of course, it will almost certainly have to have some real excitement factor to draw in folks. May take some time to grow... the football postseason was a hit, yet had been really demanded by fans for so long. But this ...? I think it's doable, but different....

MLB and NBA have it the closest when it comes to crowning sports champions for America.

How do you do it?
Weed out the majority of the teams in the regular season.
Then, have the playoffs be not one game and done...but a series. Anybody can upset anybody in 1 game. But winning 2 of 3, or 3 of 5, or 4 of 7 comes MUCH closer to reflecting a real champ.

My March Madness?
The Power 5 each get their regular season champ in the tourney. A committee votes on the remaining 3 teams (at large) and seeds the top 8.
Quarterfinal--Three-game series between each two of the eight teams. Two sites...one Eastern and one Western.
Two games on Thursday, two on Friday. Everybody plays Saturday. If a third game is needed (series tied 1-1), those games are on Sunday.
Semifinal--same as quarterfinal, except only one site. One game Thursday, one game Friday, both games Saturday. Rubber match(es) on Sunday.
Championship--same format, except one game Thursday night, one game Saturday night, and the rubber match on Monday night (if necessary).

A. Only the best teams from the regular season get in.
B. The best teams are allowed to have one bad game and can still continue on (if they win their other two).
C. The rest of the teams can still play in a single-elimination tourney...for old time's sake.

Example
1. Kentucky (SEC champ)
2. UVA (ACC champ)
3. Duke (at-large)
4. Villanova (at-large)
5. Arizona (Pac-12 champ)
6. Wisconsin (Big 10 champ)
7. Gonzaga (at-large)
8. Kansas (Big 12 champ) (over the AP#8 Wichita St.)

Weekend 1
Houston, Texas
Thurs--Kentucky/Kansas
Fri--Villanova/Arizona
Sat.— Kentucky/Kansas AND Villanova/Arizona
Sun—if necessary

Cleveland, Ohio
Thurs.— UVA/Gonzaga
Fri.— Duke/Wisconsin
Sat.— UVA/Gonzaga AND Duke/Wisconsin
Sun.—if necessary

Weekend 2 (assuming high seeds win series)
Los Angeles, CA
Thurs.—Kent./Villanova
Fri.—Duke/UVA
Sat.— Kent./Villanova AND Duke/UVA
Sun.—if necessary

Weekend 3 (assuming high seeds win series)
Indianapolis
Thurs.—Kentucky/UVA
Saturday—Kentucky/UVA
Monday—if necessary